Talk:Canadair CF-104 Starfighter/Archive 1

Edits
I have gave the sources requested since my firts edits here. There were any note about this article, just 'references' that need to buy a book. But nobody cared about an 'available reference' until i wrote here something. If someone wants to teach me how i should learn about F-104s seen i am unable to do it, well he is welcomed. I am pretty sure that there are not many that can call me liar or ignorant with reason, but still there are many that call me so even without reasons. That's amusing, expecially because they are always the same to do so.--Stefanomencarelli 16:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * At this point, no further editing can take place as the original editor will be in violation of the 3R rule. However, discussion can certainly take place on this talk page until a resolution is achieved. FWIW Bzuk 16:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC).

I have posted 'sources' about the stuff written. BillBc had read Joe Baugher site or he needs further 'proofs'? I have posted three sources, and still this is not enough. Be serious, these are attacks on my work with other reasons than 'unsourced' info. BillBc has also called me 'troll'. THIS IS A PERSONAL INSULT and nobody does nothing. Shame.--Stefanomencarelli 19:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

And this is, for the sake of the 'serios' wiki.en, the differences made by me in this page:

''RCAF was interested to a new interceptor and fighter bomber to replace the aging F-86s, and preferred F-4 Phantom for this task. This was apparently too costly and RCAF will been equipped, many years lather, with another McDonnell heavy fighter, F-101 Vodoo. Scrapped the intention to have F-4s, the choice was among F-104 and F-11 Super Tiger. While the latter was apparently preferred, the final choice was for the first .''

The CF-104 Starfighter was slighty different than the other F-104s. Among the peculiarities it had, in the nose, the R-24A NASARR, an air-to surface radar, not the multirole equipment that F-104Gs had. The main task was, originally, the nuclear strike so CF-104s were meant mainly as fast bombers, capable to release their nukes on land targets, but not useful as multirole machines .. Also M61 gun was, initially, removed and replaced with additional fuel tanks. As engines, these were J79-OEL-7 rated at 10,000 lb.s.t. dry and 15,800 lb.s.t. with A/B.They were built by Orenda. Another task that CF-104s were able to do was the tactical reconnissance, with provision for a ventral pod (four Vinten photograpic machines).

Eight of these stationed in Europe from december 1962 onward, under the control of No. 1 Air Division, while others were assigned to No. 6 OTU, Cold Lake, Alberta.

RCAF CF-104s were a real powerful enchancement, during '60s to the European NATO forces, and their task was only recognition and nuclear strike .: -   - *No. 427 was the first of these squadrons, based in Zweibrucken from 1962. In February of 1964, even before France withdrew from NATO in 1966, - *2 Wing was based at Grostonquin with two CF-104 squadrons: No 421 and No. 430. - *Another french airbase was Marville, with other two squadrons, devolved to reconnaissance. They were 439 and 441. - *The last units were 434 and 444 sqn., dedicated to nuclear strike. -   - When France leaved NATO there was a great reorganization, and Canadian airbases were closed and their four squadrons moved in Germany. 434 and 444 were dismantled. -   - From 1972 there was an important shifting in the task for Canadian Starfighters: the nuclear strike, the mainstay of NATO deterrent in '60s was reduced as importance, and so CF-104s started to use convenctional weapons to perform their strike role. One of the weapons was the BL-755 CBU, british ordnance with 147 anti-tank bomblets, there were also rocket launchers and other ordnances. Also M61, initially deleted was, time and time re-installed in the nose of these '104s .. Another system that was installed was an RWR: two tail sensors and one in the nose witnessed this new avionic instrument, not present before, finally gave to this machine a minimal kind of electronic defence. -   - In the meanwhile, the powerful Canadian airforces reduced its strenght to only three squadrons: Nos. 421, 439, and 441, Baden-Soellingen, West Germany .. In 1983 Litton LW-33 digital nav-att. system replaced the less precise and more expensive LN-3. This was an important improvement but the CF-104s days were almost ended, and in the same year CF-18s started to replace them. In the final years also the colours were changed, as the metallic painting was replaced by a dark green.

It worths account, however, that these machines were used in a role very difficult and dangerous, the low-levels, high speed flights often performed in bad weather conditions were forgiveless for any mistake or tecnical fault. Other airforces generally used F-104s also as interceptors, a role that did not usually requested long low-level missions. The operativity was so high that the average for each CF-104 was 6,000 flyng hours, three times than Luftwaffe and more than any other airforce using these machines ..

Turkey was the final costumer for many CF-104s ex-RCAF, atleast 52. Twenty were overhauled in Germany by MBB in Manching. Rest was used as spare parts source. This was happened in spring 1986.

Try to control and tell me where is the 'onsourced materials'. WHERE ARE THEY?--Stefanomencarelli 19:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Just for the sake of truth, let's see how i am a lyar:

From Joe Baugher site:

Canadair CF-104 Starfighter Last revised October 6, 2003

In the late 1950s, the Canadian government had a clear need for a supersonic replacement for the Sabre Mk.6 in RCAF service. Several aircraft were considered in the competition, including the McDonnell F4H Phantom II, the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter, and the Grumman F11F-1F Super Tiger. The RCAF clearly preferred the Phantom as the Sabre replacement, but this was rejected fairly early on, probably due to its high cost. As the alternative, the RCAF preferred the Super Tiger (even though it had not been purchased by the US Navy), but on July 2, 1959, it was announced that Canada had chosen the F-104 Starfighter as the replacement for the Sabre Mk.6 in service with the RCAF's European Air Division. The choice was probably made because of a better deal (in terms of economics) being struck between the manufacturer and the Canadian government.

However, since the Canadian government wanted equipment to be fitted that was specific to RCAF requirements, it opted to manufacture the aircraft under license in a Canadian factory rather than to buy the aircraft outright from Lockheed. On August 14, it was announced that Canadair of Montreal had been selected to manufacture 200 aircraft for the RCAF under license from Lockheed. In addition, Canadair was to manufacture wings, tail assemblies, and rear fuselage sections for 66 Lockheed-built Starfighters that were destined for the West German Luftwaffe. The license production contract was signed on September 17, 1959.

The Canadian-built Starfighter was initially designated CF-111 by the RCAF, but this was later changed to CF-104. They were designated CL-90 by the Canadair factory.

The CF-104 was basically similar to the F-104G, but was fitted with equipment specialized for RCAF requirements. It differed from the F-104G in being optimized for the nuclear strike role rather than being a multi-mission aircraft. The F-104G was fitted with NASARR F15A-41B equipment which was optimized for both air-to-air and air-to-ground modes, but the CF-104 was fitted with R-24A NASARR equipment which was dedicated to the air-to-ground mode only. The main undercarriage members were fitted with longer-stroke liquid springs and carried larger tires. The CF-104 also differed from the F-104G in retaining the removable refuelling probe that was fitted to the F-104Cs and F-104Ds of the USAF. Another difference from the F-104G was the ability of the CF-104 to carry a ventral reconnaissance pod equipped with four Vinten cameras. The 20-mm M61A1 cannon and its associated ammunition were initially omitted from the CF-104, and an additional fuel cell was fitted in their place.

In parallel with the production of the Starfighter by Canadair, Orenda Engines, Ltd. acquired a license to build the J-79 engine which was to power it. The CF-104 was powered by a Canadian-built J79-OEL-7 rated at 10,000 lb.s.t. dry and 15,800 lb.s.t. with afterburning.

Lockheed sent F-104A-15-LO serial number 56-0770 to Canada to act as a pattern aircraft for CF-104 manufacture. It was later fitted with CF-104 fire control systems and flight control equipment (but not the strengthened airframe of the true F-104G) and turned over to the RCAF, where it was assigned the serial number of 12700. The first Canadair-constructed CF-104 (RCAF serial number 12701) was airlifted to Palmdale, California in the spring of 1961, where it made its first flight on May 26. The second CF-104 (12702) also made its first flight at Palmdale. The first two CF-104s to fly at Montreal were Nos. 12703 and 12704, which both took to the air on August 14, 1961.

CF-104s were initially assigned Canadian serials 12701 through 12900. On May 18, 1970, they were reserialed as 104701 through 104900. The Lockheed-built F-104A pattern aircraft was reserialed from 12700 to 104700.

The 200th and last CF-104 (No. 12900) was completed on September 4, 1963 and delivered to the RCAF on January 10, 1964. Many early production aircraft were modified to the standard of the last production machines. Following the delivery of the last CF-104, Canadair switched over to the manufacture of F-104Gs for delivery to NATO allies under the provisions of MAP.

Beginning in December of 1962, the RCAF used its CF-104s to equip eight European-based squadrons of its No. 1 Air Division. Other CF-104s were assigned to the No. 6 OTU based at Cold Lake, Alberta. Apart from the operational conversion unit established at Cold Lake, Alberta in late 1961 (eventually redesignated No 417 Squadron), RCAF CF-104s were all committed to the support of NATO's nuclear deterrent mission in Europe. No. 427 Squadron was the first to form, with initial deliveries to Zweibrucken in December of 1962. In February of 1964, even before France withdrew from NATO in 1966, 2 Wing at Grostonquin was disbanded, and its two CF-104 squadrons were transferred elsewhere, No 421 moving to 4 Wing at Baden-Soellingen and No. 430 moving to Zweibrucken. The RCAF's other French base at Marville was closed by March of 1967, and its two CF-104 reconnaissance squadrons (439 and 441) moved to Lahr in Germany. Nos 434 and 444 Squadrons were disbanded in 1967-68, reducing CF-104 strength to four nuclear strike squadrons and two tactical reconnaissance squadrons.

In May of 1969, 3 Wing at Zweibrucken was closed, and No 427 Squadron was relocated to Baden and No 430 to Lahr. Air operations at Lahr ceased in 1970, when it became a Canadian Army base, but 1 Canadian Army Group remained at Lahr, co-located with the Canadian Forces Europe headquarters. The airfield at Lahr remained opeational for air transport operations as well as being a deployment base for the CF-104s from Baden-Soellingen.

In 1970, the Canadian government decided to reduce the strength of the Air Division to only three squadrons and to relinquish its nuclear strike role in favor of conventional attack by 1972. By January of 1972, the CF-104s had been converted from their nuclear role to that of conventional ground attack. A 20-mm Vulcan cannon was installed, and the fairing was removed from the cannon port. Twin bomb ejector rack carriers and multi-tube rocket launchers were installed.

In 1972, 1 AirDiv was redesignated 1 Canadian Air Group with headquarters remaining at Lahr. Squadron Nos. 422, 427, and 430 Squadrons were disbanded. Nos. 439 and 441 replaced all but 421 Squadron in No 4 Wing at Baden. Of the remaining three squadrons, 421 was committed to converting to ground attack roles, together with No. 431 Squadron, leaving only No. 441 Squadron to continue tactical reconnaissance missions with the Vinten VICON underfuselage camera pod. However, I don't think that No. 441 Squadron remained a reconnaissance unit for all the time until the final phaseout in 1986.

A number of former Canadian Forces single-seat CF-104 fighter-bombers and CF-104D two-seat trainers were transferred to Denmark and Norway after having been brought up to F-104G/TF-104G standards. By the end of 1980, these transfers along with attrition had brought European-based RCAF strength down to only three Starfighter squadrons. These were Nos. 421, 439, and 441, all based at Baden-Soellingen in West Germany. At that time, No. 417 Squadron at Cold Lake was still functioning as a CF-104 Operational Conversion Unit.

By 1983, all single-seat CF-104s had been modified with the Litton LW-33 digital intertial navigation/attack system, which replaced the original LN-3 analog inertial navigation system. The LW-33 was much more accurate and less expensive to maintain than was the earlier LN-3. In addition, the LW-33 had an attack function.

Beginning in 1983, the CF-104 Starfighters were replaced in Canadian Armed Forces service by McDonnell Douglas CF-18 Hornets. The last CF-104 was phased out by No. 441 Squadron on March 1, 1986. Canada then offered Turkey an initial batch of 20 CF-104s, later increased to 52, including six CF-104Ds. Twenty of these were sent to MBB at Manching in Germany in March of 1986 for inspection before being transferred to Turkey. The remainder were broken down for spares.

About 110 CF-104/CF-104Ds were lost in accidents, out of 239 delivered--a loss rate of no less than 46 percent. However, it is only fair to point out that the Canadian CF-104s probably had the highest flying time of any country operating the Starfighter. At the time of retirement, average airframe times were of the order of 6000 hours as compared to 2000 hours for the Luftwaffe.

At the time of retirement, some Canadian-based CF-104s were made available for museums in Canada. Anyone have a list of museums which have examples?

The following Canadian Armed Forces units operated the CF-104:

Central Experimental and Proving Establishment/Aerospace Engineering and Test Establishment, Cold Lake, Alberta (1962). 6 Strike-Recce OTU, reformed as No. 417 Operational Training Squadron (1962-1983). No 421 (Red Indian) Squadron, 2 Wing, Grostonquin/Baden-Soellingen Dec 1963 to Dec 1985 No 422 (Tomahawk) Squadron, 4 Wing, Baden-Soellingen, July 1963 to 1972. No 427 (Lion) Squadron, 3 Wing, Zweibrucken/Baden-Soellingen, Oct 1962 to 1972. No 430 (Silver Falcon) Squadron, 2 Wing, Grostonquin/Lahr, September 1963 to 1972. No 434 (Bluenose) Squadron, 3 Wing, Zweibrucken, April 1963 to March 1967. No 439 (Sabre-Toothed Tiger) Squadron, 1 Wing, Marville/Baden- Soellingen, March 1964 to March 1986. No 441 (Silver Fox) Squadron, 1 Wing, Marville/Baden-Soellingen, September 1963 to Feb 1986. No 444 (Cobra) Squadron, 4 Wing, Baden-Soellingen, May 1963 to 1967.

RCAF serials of CF-104 Starfighter: 12701/12900	Canadair CF-104 c/n 1001/1200 Reserialed 104701/104900 in 1970. 12703 to Denmark as R-704 1971-73 104711 to Turkey in 1986 104713 to Turkey in 1986 104716 to Turkey in 1986 12717 to Norway in 1973. WFU Jan 1983. Stored at Sola and given to				educational purposes 12730 to Norway in 1973. WFU Mar 1983. Now on display at Sola Aviation Museum. 104733 to Turkey in 1986 104735 to Turkey in 1986 104737 to Turkey in 1986 104739 to Turkey in 1986 104743 to Turkey in 1986 104747 to Turkey in 1986 104751 to Turkey in 1986 104753 to Turkey in 1986 104755 to Norway in Apr 1974. WFU Jan 1983. Given to educational purposes at Skedsmo 104756 to Turkey in 1986 104757 to Denmark as R-757 1971-73 104758 to Denmark as R-758 1971-73 104759 to Norway in 1973. WFU Nov 1982. On display at Aeroplane Collection at Gardermoen. 104760 to Turkey in 1986 104761 to Turkey in 1986 104766 to Norway in 1973. WFU Nov 1982. displayed on pedestal at LFK, Jkeller 104770 to Turkey in 1986 104771 to Denmark as R-771 1971-73 104773 to Turkey in 1986 104776 to Turkey in 1986 104780 to Turkey in 1986 104786 to Turkey in 1986 104787 to Turkey in 1986 104788 to Turkey in 1986 104795 to Turkey in 1986 104796 to Turkey in 1986 104797 to Norway in 1973. Crashed Jul 29, 1975 at Revtind. Pilot killed 104800 to Norway in 1973. WFU May 1983. given to educational purposes at Asphaugen School in 1985 104801 to Norway in 1973. WFU Jul 1982. Now on display at the Aeroplane Collection, Gardermoen 104804 crashed 7/23/1971. 104806 to Turkey in 1986 104808 to Turkey in 1986 104810 to Turkey in 1986 104812 to Denmark as R-812 1971-73 104814 to Denmark as R-814 1971-73 104815 to Turkey in 1986 104818 to Norway in 1973. WFU Dec 1982. Used for ABDR training at LSK, Kjevik 104819 to Denmark as R-819 1971-73 104824 to Turkey in 1986 104825 to Denmark as R-825 1971-73 104826 to Turkey in 1986 104832 to Denmark as R-832 1971-73 104833 to Norway in 1973. Crashed Jun 10, 1978, 17 mi N of Andoya while trying to identify three unknown vessels. Pilot killed. 12834 crashed 4/27/1970. 104836 to Norway in 1974. WFU Nov 1982. given to educational purposes at Bardufoss 104837 to Turkey in 1986 104839 to Turkey in 1986 104841 to Turkey in 1986 104842 to Turkey in 1986 104845 to Turkey in 1986 104846 to Denmark as R-846 1971-73 104847 to Turkey in 1986 104848 to Turkey in 1986 104850 to Norway in 1973. WFU Dec 1982. To USA in 1994 as trading object. 104851 to Denmark as R-851 1971-73 104855 to Denmark as R-855 1971-73 104860 to Norway Feb 1974. Crshed near island of Spildra in Kvaenagen Jun 8, 1979 due to engine failure. Pilot ejected safely. 104862 to Turkey in 1986 104865 to Turkey in 1986 104866 to Turkey in 1986 104869 to Turkey in 1986 104870 to Norway in Jan 1974. WFU Dec 1982. 104873 to Turkey in 1986 104882 to Norway in Dec 1974. WFU Dec 1982. Now a gate guard at Volvo Aereo Norway, Kongsberg 104883 to Turkey in 1986 104886 to Norway in Aug 1974. WFU Dec 1982. On display at Rudshogda Hamar, Norway 104887 to Denmark as R-887 1971-73 104888 to Denmark as R-896 1971-73 104889 to Norway in May 1974. WFU Nov 1982. On display at Torp Airport 104890 to Norway in Oct 1974. WFU Jan 1983. Used for ABDR training at Bodo airbase 104891 to Turkey in 1986 104893 to Turkey in 1986 12897 crashed 7/15/1968. 104899 to Turkey in 1986 104900 to Norway in May 1974. Crashed into sea Jan 18, 1983 near Bodo. Pilot ejected safely.

Specification of the CF-104: Engine: One Orenda Engines-built J79-OEL-7 rated at 10,000 lb.s.t. dry and 15,800 lb.s.t. with afterburning. Performance: Maximum speed (dash): 1550 mph (Mach 2.35) at 40,000 feet, 915 mph (Mach 1.2) at sea level. Climb to 30,000 feet in 1.5 minutes. Weights were 13,909 pounds empty, 21,005 pounds loaded (clean), 28,891 pounds maximum takeoff. Dimensions were wingspan 21 feet 11 inches, length 54 feet 9 inches, height 13 feet 6 inches, wing area 196.1 square feet. Armament: External stores could be carried on five hardpoints (one underneath the fuselage, one underneath each wing, and one at each wingtip).

Sources:

The Lockheed F-104G/CF-104, Gerhard Joos, Aircraft in Profile No. 131, Doubleday, 1969.

The World's Great Interceptor Aircraft, Gallery Books, 1989.

Lockheed F-104 Starfighter, Steve Pace, Motorbooks International, 1992.

Lockheed Aircraft Since 1913, Rene J. Francillon, Naval Institute Press, 1987.

The American Fighter, Enzo Angelucci and Peter Bowers, Orion, 1987.

The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Aircraft Armament, Bill Gunston, Orion Books, 1988.

The World's Fighting Planes, William Green, Doubleday 1968.

The Aircraft of the World, William Green and Gerald Pollinger, Doubleday, 1965.

American Combat Planes, Ray Wagner, Third Enlarged Edition, Doubleday, 1982.

Lockheed F-104 Starfighter, John Fricker, Wings of Fame, Vol 2, Aerospace Publishing Ltd, 1996.

E-mail from Ross Gunn, rossgunn@lannon.qc.ca

E-mail from Jeff Rankin-Lowe on losses of CF-104s.

Norwegian Starfighter losses at http://www.starfighter.no/web/liste-e.html

E-mail from Martin Keenan on choice of F-104 for RCAF. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stefanomencarelli (talk • contribs) 13:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Some observations
Hi guys, I've noticed a couple of things, The F-104S is listed as a CF-104 variant in the infobox, it was developed from the F-104G quite a while after the CF entered service, I don't think it should be there.

Spain is shown as an operator of the CF-104, to my knowledge they only operated 'G' and 'TF' models, the confusion probably comes from the 'G' aircraft being license built by Canadair under the MAP program. I think this could be the same for Greece also.

A section on the prototype would be nice, I think it was a modified Lockheed built F-104A.

Orenda built engine?

The RHWR system was unique to the CF and is one way of telling the difference externally.

I have plenty of reference material, serial number lists of all 104 operators etc if it helps.

Just some thoughts, Cheers Nimbus227 22:03, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Mybe you can help this page, and verify Joe Baugher Enciclopedia, that for some obscure reasons is rated not enough (for one time that an enciclopedia non-wiki is free available..). I cannot, as you can see from cronology i was..not allowed to do so.--Stefanomencarelli 23:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Joe Baugher's information is very accurate as far as I know, virtually all of that information is in David Bashow's book or others that are available. I'm not sure quite what problem you have been having as I'm new here, perhaps it needs the reference link to be clearer. It would be nice if Joe's text could be used some way.Nimbus227 10:39, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

CF-104 operators
I have removed Spain and Greece as operators of the CF-104, they did receive Canadair licensed built new F-104G's but not surplus CF-104's like Norway, Spain and Turkey. Nimbus227 21:09, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Ummm, you've removed Spain because they did not receive surplus CF-104s like Spain?? I'm assuming you typed something wrong here. (Not trying to nit-pick, as it matters if Spain should be in the list or not.) - BillCJ 01:04, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Oops! That Spain was supposed to be Denmark, good spot!! Old age setting in. Nimbus227 14:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

In every case he was right to delete Spain. Strangely enough i never wrote that ex CF-104 were sent to Spain[], but my edits were rollbacked, right? Better rollback and have incomplete and false infos.

X Nimbus: i encourage you to poste info from J.Baugher. I cannot since the careful attention made against my work regardless if i am right or wrong.--Stefanomencarelli 07:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I looked back to see who posted Spain and Greece as operators before making the change in case it upset anyone, appeared to be an aviation buff using a college IP address, I can understand the error as both countries did receive brand new Canadair built F-104G aircraft.Nimbus227 14:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * This not means much. That herror was not present in my contributes, that you know, were sistematically removed. That's unaceptable to me. Such arrogance, and no excuses at all.--Stefanomencarelli 19:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Colour schemes and markings
The addition of this material to this article is now the subject of a general discussion on whether this sort of material is appropriate in aircraft articles. You are invited to participate in this discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aircraft. - Ahunt (talk) 00:25, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Total built
Total in infobox is 200 should that be 238 (200 x CF-104 and 38 x CF-104D) ? MilborneOne (talk) 22:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it's tricky in that the Canadair production was only 200 with the CF-104D production run entirely Lockheed-built. FWiW, the sole CF-104A was a Lockheed-built "pattern" aircraft. Bzuk (talk) 01:46, 30 November 2010 (UTC).
 * Thanks for that - didnt notice that the CF-104Ds were Lockheed-built. MilborneOne (talk) 12:34, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

CF-113
Was the CF-104D originally the CF-113 ? MilborneOne (talk) 22:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The original designation for the CF-104 was the CF-111, and the CF-111D was the actual designation for the CF-104D not CF-113 as erroneously reported. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 01:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC).
 * Thanks Bzuk, I presume the CF-113 is one of those things that keeps being repeated without any evidence. MilborneOne (talk) 12:36, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Just to throw a spanner in the works I have five or six books that I would consider quite reliable sources that mention the CF-113 designation, I'm not saying it's right (but it appears to be) and if someone added that info and cited it they wouldn't be busting any wiki guidelines! I have quite a lot on the CF-104, I should make it a winter job to add anything encyclopaedic to this article. Cheers Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by)    13:40, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Throwing the spanner right back at 'ya. The CF-113 just never existed according to the Canadair book by Pickler and Milberry, Stachiw's Starfighter as well as Donald's Century Jets where he specifically indicates that despite the reporting of the CF-113 by media, it was entirely a fictitious designation that was never considered by either the manufacturer or by the Royal Canadian Air Force. To be more obtuse, Canadair used the designation CL-90 for the CF-104 and CL-201 for the F-104Gs built under license, while the Forces initially called the type the "Super Starfighter." FWiW, the reason for the name change originally in 1959 stemmed from consolidating all the F-104 names so that there would be a simple name system in place. In looking at the various sources that use the CF-113 label, the wrong application seems to stem from a single source: "The Lockheed F-104G/CF-104" by Gerhard Joos in Aircraft in Profile No. 131, Doubleday, 1969, and then has been repeated Ad Infinitum. Bzuk (talk) 14:30, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yep, I've got that last one as well (it's a bit thin and the staples have gone rusty!) and that would follow that later books copied the 'duff gen'. A case of picking the best references as I indicated. As a Sun reader I believe everything that I read of course!. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by)    16:32, 30 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Don't tell me that the Sun newspaper is the same all over the world; our version tends to sensationalize every story and propagate the ultra-conservative line. It has even started a Sun television network that has already been dubbed the "Fox News of the North" in Canada. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 20:09, 30 November 2010 (UTC).
 * Well I wouldn't say no to seeing some Page Three girls on the TV!! Oops, better get back on topic quick! There were two variants of the CF-104D, Mk I and Mk II strangely enough, can't remember what the difference was but I can add it at some stage. For some reason none of the CF-104s were converted to Martin-Baker seats, the Dutch aircraft were a large unconverted fleet as well. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by)    20:22, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The two series might relate to the original production that was based on an order for 20 CF-104Ds with Lockheed and followed up with a later order for an additional 18 examples. ASFAIK, there was no difference in the CF-104D series, being similar to the TF-104G which retained the Lockheed C-2 ejection seat. In looking up the information in Stachiw's book, he also claims it was first the CF-113... aaargh! FWiW, he calls it the CF113. Bzuk (talk) 20:35, 30 November 2010 (UTC).
 * Bashow's book is probably the best, I'll have a look. Is it possible to drown in a sea of books?!! Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by)    20:39, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately Bashow's book has no technical information, it's mainly a repeating of stories. It appears that the production run of 22 was the CF-104D Mk 1, while the follow-up order for 16 had different "equipment" fitted according to Stachiw, necessitating a Mk 2 designation. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 20:42, 30 November 2010 (UTC).
 * Putnams "Lockheed Aircraft since 1913" also says the last 16 had slightly different equipment and were designated Mk II (also uses CF-113 and is a reliable reference (like the others!!) MilborneOne (talk) 20:44, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Avionics seems to be the area. I just searched for LN-3 as I think there was an upgraded LN-33 version that Bashow mentions and I found LN-3 Inertial Navigation System, an orphan that needs some work probably and could be added in loads of places. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by)    20:57, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

More on Accidents Needed
Hello. From this talk page I have found this: "About 110 CF-104/CF-104Ds were lost in accidents, out of 239 delivered--a loss rate of no less than 46 percent. However, it is only fair to point out that the Canadian CF-104s probably had the highest flying time of any country operating the Starfighter. At the time of retirement, average airframe times were of the order of 6000 hours as compared to 2000 hours for the Luftwaffe." From the actual page I have found this: "Over the course of the aircraft's lifespan in service, some 110 were lost to accidents, earning the CF-104 the nickname of "Widowmaker" or "Lawn Dart" in the air force" with a mention of an airshow accident.

Can someone improve the Accident section? It seems that 110 were lost in accidents, but only a single one is mentioned. As Canada's F-35 procurement is currently under question, this would help present some of the problems of a single engine fighter's performance in the Arctic, which is also briefly hinted at in the article on the procurement of the CF-18. MattFromOntario (talk) 02:23, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The problem is nearly 99% of the accidents were not really notable in wikipedia terms, military aircraft crash for lots of reasons so unless they hit something important or kill someone important they dont get mentioned in the aircraft article. Doesnt mean that a child article Canadair CF-104 Starfighter accidents and incidents could not be created to list some of the accidents like List of Harrier Jump Jet family losses. Just a matter of somebody finding a reliable source. MilborneOne (talk) 11:37, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with User:MilborneOne, the limitation is mostly about finding references that can be cited, more than a lack of will or interest in the subject. - Ahunt (talk) 11:58, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

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External links modified (January 2018)
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I have just modified 6 external links on Canadair CF-104 Starfighter. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131105113839/http://www.worldairforces.com/Countries/turkey/tur.html to http://www.worldairforces.com/Countries/turkey/tur.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140704085115/http://www.natotigers.org/tigermeet/index.php to http://www.natotigers.org/tigermeet/index.php
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20161013055328/http://roadsideattractions.ca/popfiles/stjean.html to http://roadsideattractions.ca/popfiles/stjean.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090227083213/http://www.comoxairforcemuseum.ca/AirPark/starfighter.html to http://www.comoxairforcemuseum.ca/AirPark/starfighter.html
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20080117035732/http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/site/equip/historical/starfighterlst_e.asp to http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/site/equip/historical/starfighterlst_e.asp
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071011153455/http://www.starfighter.no/web/indeng.html to http://www.starfighter.no/web/indeng.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 13:40, 24 January 2018 (UTC)