Talk:Canadian Arab Federation

Untitled
I have returned this page to my original design but I have removed the references to Tarek Fatah's blog since, as was correctly pointed out, blogs are not considered acceptable references. However, the rest of my writing is properly sourced and referenced. If somebody disagrees with what I have written, please provide an explanation here (on the talk).(Hyperionsteel 23:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC))


 * Please read WP:OR, WP:NPOV, and WP:BLP. These are Wikipedia policies that deal with how we present information in a neutral and reliable fashion. You cannot write:

"Mouammar is extremely anti-Israel and repeatedly uses loaded and polemical language whenever the topic of Israel comes into play in the public or media."

This is editorializing and is not written from a neutral point of view. It's also original research. Not one of the sources you have provided says that.

Many of your edits that I removed were removed for this same reason. I am going to restore my version and ask that you think about the policies I have pointed out to you with regard to the material you are attempting to reinsert. Thanks.  T i a m u t  18:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I have removed some comments you claim to be editorial but I am keeping the rest. I've properly cited all sources, many of which were written by Mouammar himself.

In particular, I see that you removed the paragraph that noted that the Canadian Press obtained an email sent out by Mouammar which included the flyer - despite the fact that Mouammar claimed that he had no role in distributing it. The source for this is a CTV news, which is one of the largest news organizations in Canada.

Also, the quotes I cite regarding Zafar Bangash were, in the most part - written by him (which is why I've kept them)

I would like to state that I think you are misintrepriting the meaning of "neutral" with regard to Wikipedia. Neutral refers to the format in which the information presented. It does not mean that the information itself must be altered to appear neutral. I suggest you think about that.

If you must remove my material, please explain in more detail why my sources are incorrect/insufficient. If you feel I am taking a quote out of context, please specifiy what context I should take them in. S

Simply writted broad statements is not sufficient, in my view, to justify removing specific material. (Hyperionsteel 22:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC))


 * I've tried to incorporate the Canadian Press info and your new source from the Senate. But I don't agree with how you've formulated the wording. It is not per the sources you have cited. Also, the Zafar Bangash section is pure original research (which goes against WP:NOR) and seems to be based on the themes raised in that very one-sided editorial by Licia Corbella. It is not WP:NPOV to give one person's take on an issue so much prominence. Please keep reading the policies and try "writing for the enemy".  T i a m u t  21:04, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I plan to revisit my sources on Zafar Bangash. In particular, I think this article should mention Bangash's 2001 article in which he concludes by calling for the explusion of Jews from Israel (you can read it for yourself here if you don't believe me: http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/movement01/pal-move.htm Hyperionsteel 23:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC))

This article is about CAF, not Bangash. Take your war with Bangash somewhere else. 142.214.60.130 (talk) 15:52, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Bangash's views are indeed relevant to this article. Khaled Mouammar has stated that Bangash is "a man of dignity" who has not used the term "kuffar." However, Bangash's views, and his use of the term "kuffar" are freely available online (at a website he routinely writes for). This shows that Mouammar is either lying or is unaware of Bangash's views.


 * Neither Bangash nor Mouammar are the subject of this article. This article is about the Canadian Arab Federation. It's not the place for your extended analysis of Bangar and his views and Mouammar's position on them. A brief mention of the controversy (i.e. derived from the one article written on the subject by a right-wing journalist) with a link to the article is sufficient coverage of this issue. Anything else is WP:UNDUE. Please also read WP:BLP again. I don't think you actually understood it (if you did indeed read it per my previous recommendations) the last time.  T i a m u t  13:40, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Mouammar, in his capacity as President of the CAF, gave an award to Zafar Bangash. It is correct to point out Bangash's views by directly citing his own writings. This information is very relevant because Mouammar claimed that Bangash is a "man of dignity" who has not used the term kuffar. I am directly citing Bangash's own writings to prove that Mouammar is either lying or is misinformed. Citing Bangash's own writings is more appropriate than citing a journalist's column in this case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hyperionsteel (talk • contribs) 03:05, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * No it is not. Please read WP:OR. You cannot make original conclusions by putting A and B together. We are not analysts, just reporters. And we use reliable sources only when we compile our reports. The article by Corbella is blatantly biased and an op-ed style piece. It's hardly a reliable source. Further, this article is not about Mouammar. It's about the CAF. If you want to write an article about Mouammar, please do so under Khaled Mouammar. But before you do, please read WP:BLP. I don't know how many times I have to direct you to these policies before you take heed of them.  T i a m u t  03:10, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I find it difficult to believe that Mouammar didn't know about Bangash's views and his writings. But even if he didn't know, evidence of Bangash's true views should be put forward. This is not a "hack and slash" job but rather a series of quotes, taken in context, from Bangash's writings. This is more accurate than a brief summation by a journalist.(Hyperionsteel 03:26, 3 December 2007 (UTC))


 * Acutally again, it is not more accurate and it's called original research. You have no idea if Mouammar read those pieces by Bangash or not. You cannot cut and paste together a bunch of Bangash's writing an imply that Mouammar share or condones those views without a reliable source reporting on that. Again, this article is about a Canadian NGO and not Mouammar ande not Bangash. Please stop disrupting Wikipedia by adding unreliable, original research of tangential relevance to this article.  T i a m u t  10:56, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not disrupting Wikipedia, and don't lecture me, Tiamut. I'm high-lighting the fact that the CAF gave an award to Bangash. CAF President Mouammar specifically stated that Bangash has not used the term "kuffar." I have cited Bangash's own writings which are freely available on the Internet in which he uses the term "kuffar." Thus, Mouammar was lying or was unaware of Bangash's true views. Either way, I have a right to point this out. I've cited Bangash's own writings on a website he routinely writes for - explain to me how that is unreilable. (Hyperionsteel (talk) 02:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC))


 * You are indeed being disruptive. You keep ignoring that the fact that CAF gave an award to Bangash is already amply represented in the version I keep restoring. (See here.) I have explained to you a number of times that neither Mouammar nor Bangash are the subject of this article. The granting by CAF of an award to Bangash and the criticism of that by one right-wing commentator deserve a brief mention perhaps, but nothing more. Also, please read WP:OR. Stop using Bangash's writings as primary source material to make your own conclusions.  T i a m u t  14:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, let me spell it out for you. The CAF President, acting in that capacity, gave an award to an Bangash and defended him from criticism that he is an Islamist and an extremist. It is not disruptive to point this out by citing specific writings which are more accurate than a journalist's rehash. The CAF opened the door for this when they gave out this award.

You seem to express doubt that the "right-wing commentator" is credible since you refer to her by that term. I am citing Bangash's own original writings. Therefore, it seems I am more interested in accuracy than you are. Citing original writings is not "original research" and is a commonly used practice throughout Wikipedia. (Hyperionsteel (talk) 21:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC))


 * Please read WP:BLP. Specifically:"We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high quality references. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space. An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is 'do no harm'. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. Biographies of living persons (BLP) must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy."
 * This is not the place for your extended WP:OR analysis or editorializing about whether or not Mouammar lied and whether or not Bangash is an extremist. (Both of which are already mentioned in the article, by the way.) Your additions seem to be designed to make a case that Mouammar and Bangash are bad men. That's not in line with WP:NPOV. And it's also not what this article is about. This article is about the Canadian Arab Federation. One article on an award granted by the CAF to Bangash isn't enough to qualify it as an incredibly notable event. It certainly doesn't deserve more mention that it already has in the article. (Read also WP:UNDUE.)  T i a m u t  22:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Zafar Bangash refers to non-Muslims in a derogatory manner, supports the fundamentalist regime in Iran, seeks the destruction of Israel and the explusion of its Jewish population. Protraying him as a "bad man" is not very difficult.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 05:04, 9 December 2007 (UTC))


 * BANGASH IS NOT THE SUBJECT OF THIS ARTICLE. And even if he were, your opinion that he is "a bad man", it not relevant here. We write information on people on in a neutral fashion, per WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. We do not relish in picking and choosing the quotes we think best make the case that they are bad people. Please cease your axe-grinding.  T i a m u t  14:43, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Bangash is not the subject of this article, but the CAF gave him an award and defended him against criticism - which makes Bangash's views very relevant. If you think I'm taking Bangash's quotes out of context, feel free to explain what context they should be taken in. (Hyperionsteel (talk) 02:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC))

The award to Bangash is already ocvered in the article. I think we're done here.  T i a m u t  03:37, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Article slant
Please add info from the following articles to balance out the latest sections attacking the CAF. This article by Haroon Siddiqui is good and this one by CAF president Khaled Mouammar should also be used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.41.111 (talk) 04:33, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

POV and balance issues
I notice this article has been taken over by criticism of CAF regarding its positions on Israel. It strongly appears that someone is using this article as a means to criticize in a very unbalanced fashion the Canadian Arab Federation. It is being done by sourced materials, but it is all designed to focus on the criticism of the CAF and to further that criticism. This is not a proper use of Wikipedia and this article is clearly POV.

I am starting to be concerned that this is a pattern that has established itself on a number of articles and as such may require a more systematic approach in dealing with it. --John Bahrain (talk) 12:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I've added this article to my list of things to improve. I will be working on it during the next few weeks.  I've improved one section (it has a much better structure now and it is shorter) this afternoon and will move on to the others.  --John Bahrain (talk) 12:34, 9 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I recognize your concerns. However, please note that all of the criticisms are from notable third party sources (in accordance with Wiki-policy). Also, there are a number of citations from the CAF itself defending its position as well as from its supporters. In addition, please keep in mind that the CAF's position on Israel has become a very important topic in the Canadian media and politics. I encourage you not to remove criticism but rather to insert material that supports the CAF and its position on Israel and Jason Kenney.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 22:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC))


 * I've reviewed some of your changes. I've reverted some of them (I found the proper reference) and have changed others. Please avoid using words such as "attacked" where referring to comments made by one person about another. Also, do not leave out important facts (Mouammar denied that the CAF distributed the flyer yet the Canadian Press revealed that it had obtained an email from Mouammar suggesting otherwise). I respect your desire to achieve balance but please do not push the article too far the other way. Its clear we both have strong opinions on the topics discussed in a number of articles - hopefully, we can find a happy-medium. (Hyperionsteel (talk) 22:34, 9 March 2009 (UTC))


 * I'm going to continue to improve this article. It needs a lot of work.
 * Let's talk about this specific issue you bring up:
 * Mouammar denied that the CAF distributed the flyer yet the Canadian Press revealed that it had obtained an email from Mouammar suggesting otherwise
 * The problem is that it's primary wide distribution was by PlanetMontreal and then later it was forwarded Mouammar to a smaller group. Mouammar said that he forwarded it to a few (the article even says that he admitted to doing so), but that isn't in conflict with the fact that he didn't do the main distribution.  There is no quote from Mouammar stating what distribution he denied doing and if he denied doing the main distribution, he was in fact correct.
 * I also think it is a matter of detail we want to include. If he says that he did forward it along, we should just state so -- I left that claim in and didn't even made it one bit ambiguous.  I do not see it as a major issue to remove this denial of distribution when we leave in the fact that he did distribute it, especially when it isn't clear what distribution he denied doing because we don't have a good description of that denial from the report.
 * I think that this fact isn't that relevant. If you add a ton of minor facts, it will make the article unreadable and the larger and more important facts of the matter will be obscured.  --John Bahrain (talk) 13:42, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You may have a point but I'm not entirely convinced. I'll have to think about this and possibly do more research before taking any further action on the "flyer" issue. Other than that, I've made a few minor changes - I've removed the link to objections by Israeli Arabs to the Jewish National Fund (adding a link like that is original research - also, the internal links to the JNF in the article are sufficient). I've also changed the title of the section dealing with the recent controversy between CAF President Mouammar and Jason Kenney (the word "threatened" in this sense is not the best choice since this is not being used a quote - I think the alternative is better, but feel free to make suggestions.)(Hyperionsteel (talk) 22:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC))

Allegations by Tarek Fatah
In February 2009, Tarek Fatah, founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress (MCC) sharply criticized the Canadian Arab Federation (CAF) in an article published in the National Post. Fatah, who received the CAF's highest award in December 2001, stated that the CAF's current leadership has turned the organization "into a mouthpiece for Hamas and Hezbollah in Canada." Fatah stated that the CAF used to sponsor debates on the pros and cons of the Oslo peace accord but today labels "any backer of the two-state solution [as] a traitor to the Muslim cause."

Fatah opened by sharply criticizing CAF President Khaled Mouammar for calling Immigration Minister Jason Kenney a "professional whore" because Mr. Kenney criticized the display of Hamas and Hezbollah flags at a CAF-backed protest rally. Fatah also claimed that the CAF also referred to Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff by the same label. Fatah also criticized Mouammar for sending out an email during 2006 Liberal party leadership campaign which stated that "[Bob] Rae's wife is a vice-president of the CJC [Canadian Jewish Congress], a lobby group which supports Israeli apartheid." Fatah also stated that Mouammar sent Muslim delegates a flyer that stated: "Bob Rae supports Israeli apartheid. Don't elect a leader who supports apartheid."

Fatah stated that CAF's vice-president in Ontario, Ali Mallah, referred to the Muslim Canadian Congress in an online forum as "house negros." He also claimed that Mallah sent out an e-mail message that was headlined: "Dion, Rae & Cotler: pro-Apartheid & anti-Human Rights." Fatah claimed the message also contained the flowing remarks:

1 Liberal Leader Stephane Dion's handpicked human rights critic, Irwin Cotler, advises Israeli military officials on war planning, on how to spin the media following Israeli war crimes and on how to oppose Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights; 2 Dion's handpicked critic for foreign affairs and co-writer of the Liberal party platform, the unelected Bob Rae is a committee member of the Racist Jewish National Fund. As Israel's leading newspaper Ha'aretz reports: "it's well known that the 'national institutions' -- the Jewish Agency and Jewish National Fund -- primarily exist to enable institutional discrimination based on ethnicity."

Fatah also claimed that Mallah attacked him personally, claiming that he has "no shred of decency of integrity left" and claiming that he served "Zionist masters."

Response from CAF Vice-President Ali Mallah
In response to Fatah's article, CAF Vice-President Ali Mallah emailed a response to a large group of recipients. The National Post later posted it in its original form. In the message Mallah wrote that: Tarek Fatah has earned the the perfect description by Late Malcom X and prove to be a very loyal "house Negro". In this desperate attempt to malign CAF on the pages of Zionist mouth piece National Post, he is saying one thing correct: Yes, CAF awarded him that award, but that was when Tarek Fatah was cheating his way  through  and pretending to be pro-palestine, pro-social justice, pro-multiculturalism and Anti-Liberal Party...etc  (I am sure that every one knows this sell out, is fully aware of the shameless transformation of this sorry case of human being). I admit that I was duped by his fake lies and nominated him for that award. Now, since he is totally exposed and has no cloth left, He should return that Award as he does not deserve the honour associated with it.

Regarding Irwin Cotler and Bob Rae, Mallah wrote in the same message that: As for Irwin Cotler, Who's been acting as special adviser to Israel's gov. in the last several years, even attending a high level [conference] in Herzliya to advise Israeli [officials] on how to counter, [academia], the media and public opinion re: Israel after summer 2006 War ([which] led to the Israel re-branding campaign). Here, the Video [for] all to see re: Canadian Liberal MP Irwin Cotler Advising Israeli Military Officials on War Planning. As for Bob Rae, he is a committee member of the Jewish National Fund which was found by Israeli court to be a racist group and cheating [Palestinians] out of [their] lands.


 * I don't think one op-ed by Tarek Fatah and the responses to it deserve this much coverage. In fact, I don't think it deserved any mention at all. Who cares what Fatah thinks about CAF, as expressed in one editorial in The National Post?  T i a m u t talk 15:53, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Reinstating

 * It deserves a mention because 1. Tarek Fatah is a promenient Canadian Muslim, 2. This was published in a major newspaper, and 3. The CAF responded to his accusations (the use of the term "house n____" is certainly an insult that was unexpected). This meets the requirements for Wikipedia. I also feel that you should discuss this before removing it. I will reinstate this soon based on the above points.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 18:11, 3 October 2009 (UTC))

Dispute
Due to an edit war over the inclusion of a claim that Ali Mallah was videotaped assaulting a protestor, I've applied page protection to this article for a period of one week. This is not meant to be construed as an endorsement of either version of the article — but in my capacity as an administrator, it's my responsibility when such an edit war occurs to step in and get people to discuss the matter on the talk page rather than constantly reverting each other.

The disputed claim is as follows: Its current Vice-President, Ali Mallah, was caught on film assaulting and threatening a counter-protestor at a Palestinian Solidarity protest. The source is a video clip on the Crossroads Television System website, credited to The Michael Coren Show. I don't mean to suggest that CTS in general is necessarily always an invalid source for Wikipedia — but the idea that Michael Coren is a reliable and objective source for something like this (or really for anything at all) is making my kidneys itch. Nor am I too clear on why the incident described would be notable or relevant enough to even be worth mentioning here anyway, even if Coren were actually a journalist rather than an opinion commentator. YMMV, I suppose, but this needs to be discussed rather than revert-warred. Bearcat (talk) 04:47, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * This no longer seems to be an issue, but I will chime in anyway. I did a google news search and found no mention of this event. This leads me to believe it is not important enough to mention in the article. DigitalC (talk) 00:35, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

An attempt to improve this article.
This article is absolutely atrocious. It is not at all a balanced representation of what major news organizations have reported on the Canadian Arab Federation. It relies overwhelmingly, on either the CAF and Khaled Muammar (whose press releases and articles are mined for cherry-picked quotes) and editorials from right-wing media in Canada.

In order to improve the article, we need to use a more balanced approach. We need to stop overwhelmingly rely on articles from the National Post and Sun papers and use more mainstream sources (like Globe & Mail, CBC, Toronto Star, etc).

As it is, the article provides little information on CAF. Instead it reads like an overwhelming amount of non-notable criticism of CAF's position on Israel/Palestine.Poyani (talk) 20:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

The National Post is as mainsteam a source as The Globe and Mail and the Toronto Star (and certainly the tax-payer funded CBC). If you feel any of the information here is inaccurate or has been mis-represented, please point it out. If you want to add more material to this article, feel free too. As for your second claim, under the Presdiency of Khaled Mouammar (during which the CAF has announced that it is the victim of a "well-planned Zionist campaign", amoung other things), the CAF has taken very many public and often controversial stands on issues relating to the Israel/Palestine Conflict, as well as other issues (e.g. Vice-President Ali Mallah's description of Tarek Fatah as a "house [n-word]" or of Stephen Harper as a "coward"), which is why this material comprises a large portion of this article.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 07:41, 29 January 2012 (UTC))

Possible copyright problem
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Diannaa (talk) 19:38, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

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