Talk:Canadian Pacific Railway/Archive 1

Last Spike
According to the Globe & Mail Style Book 2003, Last Spike should be capitalized. GreatWhiteNortherner 07:30, May 9, 2004 (UTC)

Incorporation of CPR
CPR Incorporation was February 16, 1881. Not 1880. R.L.Kennedy 1800 July 23, 2004

Map
Shouldn't we have a map here somewhere? just my opinion but i thought it was a good idea :P SECProto 16:04, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, we should have a system map for this article. Very few railroad articles right now have system maps, but I think they all should have at least one map to show the extent of the railroad(s) in question.  I haven't had a chance to try creating any yet, but I was planning to add a System maps subsection to WikiProject Trains/Todo to highlight the need on our project page.  slambo 16:56, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
 * I just finished creating a network map for the CPR while I should have been studying for my exam tomorrow. Suggestions and comments are appreciated.  If someone has a good idea on how to incorporate it into the article, please feel free to do so. Image:CanadianPacificRailwayNetworkMap.png. Al guy 01:55, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
 * Looks great! Let's go ahead and add the image to the article.  Not sure where in the article it best fits right now, but we can always add it near the top and move it around later.  JYolkowski 15:25, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Way cool! As we add enough system maps for the railroad articles, we should probably add them into the Template:Railroad infobox much like the geography articles (Wisconsin, for example) has the map in the infobox. slambo 16:33, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)

Facts about the Canadian Pacific
I removed this section because it sounded like trivia and hence unencyclopedic. I tried to move as many facts into other sections but there are three that didn't fit. If anyone wants to try putting these in context somewhere in the article, feel free.


 * The CPR has created and owns 80 tunnels and 3,000 bridges.
 * CPR employs 24,000 workers.
 * CPR owns 48,000 freight cars. The railroad spends about $1 billion annually for maintenance, repairs and improvements.

-JYolkowski 01:16, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Still too much red ink for FAC status
I think we need to make war on the remaining red wikis in the article before it will be taken seriously as a FAC candidate. I'm very surprised that some things (like Delaware and Hudson) don't have articles already... Fawcett5 05:01, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that was something I was slightly concerned about (although I haven't gotten any comments about that on WP:FAC). I took a look through the article a few hours ago and counted fourteen redlinks, not including the navigation templates.  Since then, I've unlinked three terms and created four new articles, including a D&H one.  As for why the D&H didn't have an article, we used to have an article on the D&H but it was deleted as a copyvio.  Also, I think you've created one new one.  So that brings us down to six redlinks, which is probably alright.  JYolkowski 18:47, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * It is looking a bit better. I will have a crack at John Macoun and Yellowhead Pass in the next few days.  Some of the things that were unwikied should DEFINITELY get their own articles at some point, such as the crowsnest pass agreement (but I'm biased, I was the one that added that stuff).  Looking now, I think the special train section detracts a bit from the coherency of the article, although there is some good stuff there, especially the role the North-West rebellion played. Can it be reworked? Also we should add a bit about how Crowfoot allowed contruction through Blackfoot territory after negotiations with Father Albert Lacombe.  I've just finished adding the Lacombe article, but Crowfoot's is way underdeveloped.  Still, it's not a red wiki.  Fawcett5 21:33, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I might be biased here because it's one of the few sections I didn't write from scratch, but I too have mixed feelings about the "Special trains" section. I feel that some of it makes sense to be there instead of elsewhere, but other stuff doesn't really need its own section.  Two sections aren't really saying anything so I'm going to remove them and maybe add a sentence or two elsewhere.  I'll leave the other sections in but copyedit them a bit more. JYolkowski 00:24, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm still going to get around to this. Between the power failure problems and being busy with real-world stuff I haven't been around here much this week, but I'll maybe do this this weekend.  JYolkowski 23:37, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Now only ONE red wiki, and Featured article status has been granted!
 * Yes! JYolkowski 23:37, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Navvies
The material on Navvies is interesting and good, but there is too much detail here for an article specifically about the CPR. The article is already greater than 32K. I would argue that much of it should be moved to the article on Navvies. Since they played such an important role in building the CPR, they certainly merit a mention on the main page, but the detail should be elsewhere. Opinions?


 * Well, for one thing, "navvy" was not a term used for the Chinese railway workers; it was expressly for British navvies and there was no doubt that such a man as Navvy Jack was anything but a Brit. Bowering's history of BC does another headspin with archaic working terms by calling the Chinese "gandy dancers", a term probably unknown to them and certainly not bestowed on them by Onderdonk's foremen (and in more recent years, the name of a famous but no longer extant gay bar in what has since become Vancouver's Yaletown district; now Bar None for those who know the area).  Further to this, the article makes no mention of non-Chinese workers.  And also fails to mention the brutal violence at Camp 23.....Skookum1 17:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Other CPR Topics
First all, congratulations on the Feature Article status, especially to User:JYolkowski and User:Fawcett5 for their work. I realize the article is getting pretty long (perhaps we need a 'History of the CPR' article?) but there a couple of things that could be added: Obviously there isn't room for everything but perhaps mention could be slid in somewhere. Al guy 05:18, Feb 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * the chateau/hotels of the CPR (Banff Springs, Lake Louise, Glacier House, Chateau Frontenac, Royal York, etc.) that played an important part in Canadian tourism both historically and now. These hotels have been spun off as Fairmont Hotels.
 * immigration - starting in 1880s the CPR played a lead role in enticing immigrants to Canada - had 1000s of agencies in Britain and Europe. In 1925, the role of the railways in immigration was formalized with the federal government, but the railways role phased out after WWII.
 * other non-railway departments such as airlines (started in 1945, Canadian Pacific Airlines, later became Canadian Airlines), gas (became PanCanadian Energy merged to become Encana in 2002), steamers (had 38 steamers before WWI, and during interwar years called itself the 'World's Greatest Travel System with cruise liners on Atlantic and Pacific runs as well as round-the-world cruises)
 * opening 1916, opened a second mainline across southern BC because of stiff competition from Great Northern (severed in 1978)


 * Al, I think that most of the other corporate activities could possibly go under the link for "Canadian Pacific Railway Limited" where the old list of presidents lives now. The page as it is now really is the history of the railway page.  At most this page should have a one sentence mention of the steamships and hotels with links to the appropriate articles. The article does at least touch on the CPR's role in settlement in the lead paragraph, and does mention the Southern mainline in the section mentioning the Crow Rate.  There should definitely be an article on the crowsnest pass agreement, but I am out of steam for the moment.  Why not give it a shot? There could be a bit more elaboration (two sentences?) on the immigration thing in the history following construction section.  But the article is too long.  The Navvie section sticks out like a sore thumb now, and needs to be spun off to the Navvie article.  Other problems are that in the section about passenger and freight trains there is some duplication of material with previous sections.  Any help or advice is much appreciated.  Fawcett5 16:41, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * There is a lot to be said about non-railway corporate activities; however, I think that they should probably go in an article entitled Canadian Pacific Railway Company or Canadian Pacific Limited. I think it makes the most sense if this article is about the railway and the company's (or companies') other divisions can be written about in an article on the company.  JYolkowski 23:47, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Also, it might be worthwhile to mention the KVR in the article somewhere. For now, I've added an entry in "See also".  JYolkowski 20:52, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Hadn't checked this article in a while - many great improvements! I had added some info the Canadian National Railway article and it probably could stand to have some similar attention with regards to heading organization, unnecessary information, missing information, moving some things to sub-articles, etc.


 * I haven't checked the CPR Ltd. entry as to how it covers the immigration issue, but I was thinking this main article might want to mention the modest! slogan "World's greatest transportation system" developed during the early 20th century immigration marketing campaigns... Some info also available here on posters/marketing (CPR posters).  Plasma east 17:53, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Syndicate
Looking over the article again for the first time in awhile, I notice that the members of "the syndicate" get pretty short shrift. Donald Alexander Smith is mentioned only in context of the Last Spike. James J. Hill is not mentioned, and the same for Norman Kittson. Also, there is now a very nice article for Lord Dufferin, and his contribution to the political machinations could bear mentioning somewhere.... Yolkowski, are you up for it? Fawcett5 17:14, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I think that sort of information is better in Canadian Pacific Railway Company or Canadian Pacific Limited (and I am going to write one of them someday and redirect the other one to it one day, seriously!). I think that at least a mention of their names etc. would fit in this article though.  I'll take a look at that shortly.  JYolkowski 00:05, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I have also been getting material together to do a separate article for the Canadian Pacific Survey, where I can deal with some of the explorer types that I like to write about in more detail. At this point though I'm still doing background research. Fawcett5 22:48, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You will find lots of interesting material. The government stalled on this and spent years surveying Canada over and over again. Look for Sanford Fleming and his published Reports, also Ocean to Ocean. R.L.Kennedy 00:25, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * In some blatant self promotion, you may find my website on the BC aspects of the surveys useful . It is exam time here, so I'm not able to put much time into this right now, though.  Al guy 00:40, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Where does Berton say Kittson was a member of the Syndicate? There were only six members and he was NOT one of them. R.L.Kennedy 01:53, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Kittson was a silent member of the syndicate, a fact which he intentionally concealed. See the entry for "Cast of Major characters" in the prefatory material for the National Dream - Berton explicitly says "Member of CPR syndicate, 1880". Also Chapter 8, section 5 "The syndicate is born". (pg. 329 in my copy, but it is a pre-publication printer's proof from before the first edition, page numbering may have been different in the actual pressing)

Fawcett5 02:36, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Page ix of The Last Spike, Cast of Major Characters, The CPR Syndicate, does NOT include Kitson. re: Chap.8 sec 5. This is the first vol. The National Dream. p.329 refers to Kittson in that early stage of things. He is not mentioned in later writings esp. the above p. ix There is nothing to say he was a secret member. I would suggest we not rewrite history or Burton's work. At best, a notation, "Kitson was thought to be a secret member of the Syndicate" but, only if there is something to back it up, and I don't see that in what you site. Any other reference? Advise. R.L.Kennedy 21:48, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm no expert on this but I looked through my CPR materials. Berton's National Dream lists Kittson as a member of the Syndicate but Last Spike does not.  Cruise & Griffiths Lords of the Line reports the syndicate as "comprised primarily of Stephen, Kennedy, Hill, Angus and Smith, whose name didn't appear" (page 88, my emphasis).  Gibbon's 1935 Steel of Empire lists the names on the CPR contract with "a syndicate containing the names of George Stephen and Duncan McIntyre, of Montreal, John S. Kennedy, of New York, Richard Angus and James J. Hill, of St. Paul, Minnesota, Morton, Rose & Company, of London, England, and Kohn Reinach & Company, of Paris, France." (p206).  Gibbon also has a quote of a letter from Stephen to Macdonald that discusses Kittson and Hill as part the Company but says the real control will be by "Angus, Kennedy, McIntrye and myself[Stephen]." but this letter is obviously trying to downplay the role of American interests.  I don't think any of these sources really resolves the issue, unfortunately.  Al guy 22:54, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)


 * Maybe I'll have a look at Innis (see references) next time I'm at the library. It's generally an authoritative source (unless there's new information that's come to light since 1923).  JYolkowski // talk 00:57, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * There is no mention of Kittson that I could find in Innis. Innis discusses the 'capitalists' involved but does not mention Kittson although the language is coached to suggest that the list of capitalists discussed is not necessarily exhaustive (p97 of 1972 reprint).  Kittson does not appear in the index.  Al guy 01:14, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

RL, I am NOT rewriting history or Berton. First of all, it is indisputible that Kittson had a large financial stake in it. He was as much a member of the Syndicate as was Smith who was ALSO not named in the contract. Continue reading Berton from Chapter 9, section 2, pg 350:
 * The members were George Stephen and Duncan McIntyre of Montreal; John S. Kennedy of New York; James J. Hill and Richard B. Angus of St. Paul; Sir John Rose's old firm of Morton, Rose and Company, London; and the German-French financial syndicate of Kohn, Reinach and Company. Norman Kittson, who had an interest, was not named at the time: too many men with St Paul addresses would have caused a storm in the opposition press. There was, as well, another name far more conspicuous by it's absence &mdash; that of Donald A. Smith.

Fawcett5 00:48, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * That paragraph sounds very authoritative to me. I'd say put him in as a member and perhaps make a mention somehow of the political tensions involved, such as the animosity between JohnA and Smith and the desire for a Canadian syndicate.  "Some members of the syndicate, namely Smith and Kittson, were not named prominently for political expedience." Al guy 01:24, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)


 * I tend to agree. JYolkowski // talk 01:37, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Roster data
Recent addition of locomotive and roster data contains many inaccuracies and I have deleted it. The CPR order for Green Goat hybrid locomotives is for 7 units and a tentative further 28 provided the first ones work out. Their purpose is not solely fuel conservation, rather reduction in greenhouse gas emmissions is a key factor. The maker, Railpower Technologies Corp. is based in North Vancouver, BC not Calgary, AB

Totals of units are wrong. You need a better source of up todate information such as the Canadian Trackside Guide, an annual publication. The total of units already in the Article (paragraph above) is more accurate.

There is no such thing as CP Rail except in newspaper stories. It has been for some time now, Canadian Pacific Railway.R.L.Kennedy 02:52, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I think the new current locomotive roster is unsightly and detracts from the narrative flow of the article. It's nice information to have, but should be definitely spun off somehow. Opinions? Fawcett5 12:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Looks like it got removed before I looked at this page, which I think is just as well since it was rather out-of-date. If anyone does want to add a locomotive roster, I would suggest adding it in a separate article.  Too much detail, and this article's big enough as it is.  Personally I'm somewhat dubious about having one because, for a company as big as the CPR, the information is going to change really rapidly.  JYolkowski 00:11, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Steam Train
2816 was repatriated back to Canada from the United States. It went off CPR records January 1964, but was not on display until some months later in Bellows Falls, Vermont. This was years after the end of the steam era on the CPR. CPR absorbs all costs associated with operating the steam train, not just the locomotive. R.L.Kennedy 21:32, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC) Official CPR Empress Volunteer

Coolies
I'm always a little suspicious of anonymous edits. This is a term I hadn't heard before, but Googling for "coolies and railroad" shows that the term, albeit a bit derogatory, is real. slambo 20:56, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)


 * See the "navvy" section for my comments there; like it or not, the Chinese were referred to as "coolies" and "chinamen", NOT as "navvies" or "gandy dancers", which were terms for whites/Brits. Coolie's etymology, by the way, is the Hindi kuli - "slave, worker" - and was not in its original setting derogatory - same as "Chinaman", which is derived from Chinese-English pidgin but since has been claimed to have been "invented by white people to discriminate against Chinese people with" (that's a quote from a local BC politician, either Victor Yukmun Wong or Jenny Kwan).  Coolie was a commonplace term for any Chinese worker in BC, especially a railway worker; to NOT use it would be revisionism IMO.  This article makes it sound like only Chinese people worked on the railway (certainly the CCNC's pretense) and omits mention of the many Indians, Irish and others who also worked on it.....

Van Horne
'Van Horne' is referenced in the 1881-1885 section, but he is not introduced until later in the article. This is poor form.

Connaught Tunnel
You write in the acticle, that the Connaught Tunnel tunnel was the longest rail tunnel in the world when it was opened in 1916 with 5 miles. This is incorrect: It was the Arlberg Tunnel in 1884 with 6.4 miles. See Arlberg. Even the rail tunnel through the Saint Gotthard in Switzerland was longer at that time (unfortunatly I don't know the exact date and length of the latter). --Eddie2 14:48, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Fawcett5 changed it to "longest in the Western Hemisphere", which it was. JYolkowski // talk 16:34, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Latta Sub
The relatively long (ex-SOO, nee MILW) Latta Subdivision in Indiana was just sold off to Indiana Railroad. Should this be mentioned in here, or perhaps the SOO Line article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Schnauf (talk • contribs)
 * It's already in Indiana Rail Road, perhaps just updating that (with a reference) would be more appropriate? If we add one subdivision sale here, then we could open ourselves up to a "slippery slope" requiring us to list all divestitures from larger carriers. Slambo (Speak)  18:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Indisputable?

 * ''the CPR remains an indisputable icon of Canadian nationalism.

Whew, that's a bit strong. Kinda POV from a British Columbian's perspective too, i.e. "remains an indisputable icon of Central Canadian domination of the economy of the Western provinces". I'm not meaning to sound all Reform Party over this; BC's history is inextricable from that of the CPR in a number of ways - but in general while it does have political-memory associations with nation-building, calling it an "indisputable icon of Canadian nationalism" is an over-reach and rather than being an icon of nationalism out here, it's an icon of monopoly corporate politics and high-sounding deals with the East that never worked out in BC's favour.Skookum1 18:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

"Carnarvon Terms Or Separation!"
Probably only someone familiar with BC history would recognize that phrase, which greeted eastern politicians on their visits to BC, as well as Lord Dufferin on his viceregal journey here; important though it is to Canadian history it's not in the "national curriculum" (as with most important bits of BC history, except those that make Canada sound good). The Carnarvon Terms refer to the original deal between Canada and BC concerning the building of the railway; Ottawa's intransigence, and the hostility of the Mackenzie government towards BC politicians (Arthur Bunster in particular, and it didn't help that Arthur Bunster called Mackenzie out of the Commons and punched him in the nose outside...), led to widespread discontent in the only-just-previously colony and the refrain of this slogan became familiar in BC newspapers and political rhetoric. I was surprised in the pre-CPR section overleaf to not see any mention of it, or of the shift in the building arrangements that was settled on (I'll dig out the details, and the whys and wherefores of the dispute) during the renegotiated deal that finally led to construction commencing in '81. Railway politics in BC deserves more discussion in this article, including the roots of "the Chinese problem" in Canada's and Britain's refusal to enhance immigration from the British Isles to BC to get the railway built. Also important and glaringly missing here is a discussion of the politics and land-speculation game played by the CPR concerning the routing and terminus of the railway, and how Victoria basically got snookered out of being the main city of hte province, and how the CPR was basically a colonial overlord over the early City of Vancouver; as with my comment just above about corporate monopoly politics, it's a truism that the CPR built Vancouver, ran Vancouver, owned Vancouver, and that it is something of an island/colony of Canadian culture/identity in an otherwise British Columbian sea (as still today, in fact); even the mansions of Shaughnessy were built to house CPR execs (the province's/colony's old wealth was largely on the Island or in New West), and otherwise dominated the economy in every area it ran through. The neutralized discussion of the Crow Rate needs expansion as it does not deal with how this was designed to suppress the growth of industry west of the Great Lakes, nor matters such as how the CPR kept a lockdown on the provincial economy by forcing any goods shipped to places like Kamloops or Trail to have to be shipped to Vancouver first, warehoused there (in CPR warehouses), and then shipped back upcountry.Skookum1 17:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Also material/fresh dirt on the Pacific Scandal from http://www.dickshovel.com/two.html and http://www.dickshovel.com/two2.html is more than valid and should be incorporated here.Skookum1 17:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Canadian Pacific Investments, CP Shipping, Marathon, Cominco?
I tried "Canadian Pacific", but it redirects to the railway only; granted the railway is where they got the dough and resources to do all the rest, but it strikes me that a Canadian Pacific wikipage should be about a lot more than the railroad. Just created a redlink for CP Shipping on Coal Harbour and not sure what to do from here....will check Marathon and Cominco to see where those go, if anywhere.Skookum1 23:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Up to a few years ago Canadian Pacific was an investment company that controlled Canadian Pacific Petroleum, CP Shipping, CP Hotels etc. Everything was sold off (including the railway) apart from the hotel business which was merged into another company. I agree a full paragraph should be done on the sale of CP companies which were many.

addition of the CPR and The Colonization of Canada section
I'm fine with this, but it has broader implications in terms of the strategic and geopolitical aspects of the reasons for the railway, and also the settlement colonization plan. Some of this is addressed in the dickshovel.com/two.html linked in the section above, but it also is implicit in the creating of a subjugant area of the nation to the central corpus of the Lower Great Lakes-St. Lawrence, aka "Canada" as known until 1867; railway policies, as well as settlement and the governmental policies concerning the west (including its piecemealing out into three weak provinces, rather than one strong one) are also part of the formula. In the West the history of the CPR is implicitly political, and in terms of its relationship to BC even more political and built into the history of the place - though in a way unlike the Prairies; how to address this without being POV I'll have to give some thought to...certainly the CPR's impact on settlement colonization and development in BC post-1885 is along the same lines, although the CPR didn't have the same latitude and influence that it did on the Prairies. Whatever. Just some thoughts; the new section is nice, might need some citing, but it opens doors on related subject matter concerning the railway as a nation "building" institution, as it is so much celebrated but maybe could be a little closer examination. Too much like original research, I guess...Skookum1 21:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Portland, Maine connection
I checked Lines of Country and didn't see any CPR line to Portland, nor have I been able to find any other source. What and where was this? Portland was, AFAIK, served by Boston & Maine, Maine Central, Grand Trunk/CN and Portland Terminal (owned by B&M/MEC). Thanks...Plasma east 15:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The CPR never went anywhere near Portland. When they went through the Eastern Townships of Quebec into Maine and New Brunswick to reach Saint John NB they did so by acquiring a number of shortlines and charters as well as running rights over the Maine Central.

R.L.Kennedy — Preceding undated comment added 02:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Fort Qu'Appelle or Qu'Appelle?
The article states In March 1885, the North-West Rebellion broke out in Saskatchewan. Van Horne, in Ottawa at the time, suggested to the government that the CPR could transport troops to Fort Qu'Appelle in eleven days.

Does the CPR go to Fort Qu'Appelle? Shouldn't this be Qu'Appelle? Check the Wikipedia entries for each - Fort Qu'Appelle is 65 km northeast of Regina, Qu'Appelle is located on the CPR mainline.

GreatGreenArkleseizure 04:26, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's probably Fort Qu'Appelle, as it was closer to the North West Rebellion when it occurred. Van Horne was probably talking about time in relation to the combined train and foot distance rather than only the train distance itself (if you catch my drift). Allan kuan1992 (talk) 06:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Lack of Citations?
It seems that the whole history section, except the "1979 - Present" part, is severely lacking in citations. Can someone fix that? Allan kuan1992 (talk) 06:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah,sure! I'll get right on that! It's only 100 years of history. Check with me next year. R.L.Kennedy (talk) 01:24, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know that sarcasm is needed. However, as of now, this article fails FAC. It's doesn't even meet the Good Article criteria. Calebrw (talk) 14:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Comparison with other transcontinental railways?
I would like to know how this line compares (e.g. in length, construction time) with the earlier line across the US, and also with other key lines, especially the Transsiberian. Perhaps someone in the know could add info on these points? APW (talk) 09:01, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

CPR Police
I removed this recent addition as while it belongs in the article somewhere it doesn't belong in the lede; its last sentence also needs citation:
 * ''CP Railway has since its founding also maintained it's own police service, Canadian Pacific Railway Police Service to protect rail commerce and rail infrastructure. It is one of the oldest police services in Canada.

And of course that apostrophe-s "it's" needs fixing but I'm leaving it [sic] for now. Adjunct operations to the railway, including railway and shipping and logging and mining companies, all need their own proper sections; but they don't all belogn in the lede, especially something as minor as the railway's security operations.Skookum1 (talk) 03:27, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Logo/map/infobox size
Why is this so large? There are too many tweaks built into it - the size of the logo, the size of the map? Would someone knowledge about fixing infoboxes reduce the size of this please? It comes off as promotional/decorative, not information/summary.Skookum1 (talk) 03:31, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Marathon, Cominco, CPI, MacBlo etc.
The article somehow completely misses out on the full breadth's of the railway's wealth and financial empire; yes, in recent years they've been devolved adn the company's capital has been "decentralized" (largely for tax reasons, and liability issues, like other megacorps), but they're very much part of this railway's history and its legacy. Lists of locomotives and boxcar models are all very nice; but the relevant details in company terms are "what CP hath wrought", not lists of rolling stock. Cominco is currently a redirect ot Teck Resources, it shouldn't be....Marathon Realty was one of Canada's largest real estate companies, and probably still is under some other name (i can't keep track...). All of teh above highly relevant to the section above called "CP in BC"....Skookum1 (talk) 03:43, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

CPR and tourism
somewhere I saw a good book on how the CPR was one of the main instigators of the global tourism industry, and how the marketing of its hotels and mountain scenery and various poster designs/advertising campaign were key to that, as was the "Grand Tour" via CPR steamships connecting from Vancouver through the Orient to Suez, etc.. From what I remember they were even bigger than Thomas Cook....this should have a section here, don't know what kind of resources/sources are online.Skookum1 (talk) 23:09, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Canadian Pacific Lake and River Service
This major subsidiary at one time had 330 vessels on the BC Interior's lakes....I'll be at the Penticton Museum in the next while and will try and write up an article on it.Skookum1 (talk) 23:09, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Headquaters
When did it more to Calgary? Where in Calgary is it? Where was it before Calgary? Needs to be in here. --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 13:31, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Scope of article
The title of the article is Canadian Pacific Railway, and the company hasn't operated anything else for over ten years. I would argue then that the sections on hotels, ships, the airline, etc don't belong in this article at all, except as appropriate in the history section. Another alternative is have a list of affiliated companies in the articles, that is just that, a list. But right now, the article presents these non-rail services as things that the company does now, rather than historical business units that are now operated by completely separate companies. D O N D E groovily  Talk to me  12:26, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Bill Ackman, 2012 strike
Hey, what's going on? I had to add all the info re Ackman and the proxy battle and the 9 day strike. Aren't these things important? Look, I don't like Ackman either but no sense being in denial. And the strike?? I know there are editors far more dedicated to this article than I am and know more about it, mostly because they are from Canada I guess, what's the deal??!! Quis separabit? 22:28, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

CP in BC
CP is such a huge empire, and so far reaching could we not have sub-pages ie CP in BC Here is a template for route map.

SFS, I don't think the route map can be done, as for the article it would have to be system wide; maybe on Kettle Valley Railway it's a good idea, but unless there were a separate CP article for BC - and there's good reasons historically why there should be, because of the corporation's overwhelming role in the province's history/development - then the table above is just "clutter" on a national page.....It's not teh same situation as the BCR....with the KVR, however, which is a BC-only topic and also not 4000 miles long, it's conceivable...Skookum1 (talk) 13:46, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Might be worth doing with the Esquimalt & Nanaimo, though.....and the old BCER line definitely....Skookum1 (talk) 13:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

that was the idea skook, to have a separate CPR in BC page. this being the start. E and N done, courtesy KWalker —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.76.183 (talk) 16:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * A CP-in-BC article would be huge and it's very complex in nature, and I don't recommend YOU try starting it; it's gonna cause too many cleanup problems for other editors if you do it; that's not a criticism, it's a staement of fact since you aren't in the habit of showing respect for Wiki style guidelines, huh? I agree it's needed, and most other Canadian editors east of the mountains wouldnt' clue in why it's so important so I'm not going to field it there (other than they're here)....it's politics - big politics, multiple companies - and too much room for "OR" (original research) adn "synthesis"; a route diagram is the least of our worries.  If you want look into the small Kootenays railways - Kaslo & Slocan, Nakusp & Slocan - and like I said the BCER article could use such a diagram, if you can find a chart of their stations (other than by exploring basemap...).Skookum1 (talk) 17:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

hmmm, dissent in the ranks. I just write, editing is your department comrade. CP in BC is something to strive for. I got too much on the go to even try it now. must fix a few steamboat pages. K and S done, sort of, as is Sandon. For the most part, the work is done in print by Sandford, Turner, Berton etc, just a question of typing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.76.183 (talk) 19:48, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Two more - Columbia and Kootenay Railway, which included the spur up the Slocan from Playmor Jct/South Slocan, and Columbia and Western Railway which I gather is incorporated, somehwat incorreclty,in the KVR article.Skookum1 (talk) 20:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

C and W was built by A. Heinze who raised the Trail Smelter. think he sold out to CP in 1905. He then lost all his money in the Panic of 07. The C and W was narrow gauge originally, with shay engines, to move the ore down Red Mtn to Trail. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.76.183 (talk) 21:45, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I've moved your British Columbia and the Canadian Pacific Railway draft article (that's my sugested title) to a sandbox page, probably User talk:Skookum1/CPinBC to keep it simple (I have other sandboxes). Ideally it should have been YOUR sandbox, which is where you should work up stuff like this; talkpages aren't the place and if I didn't move this an admin would have soon deleted it. I've wanted an article on the Carnarvon Terms for a while now and if you haven't read and http://www.dickshovel.com/two2.html about the Pacific Scandal yet you should so so right now...are you aware of teh [[Canadian Pacific Survey] article?  Anyway I'm gonna move that sandbox befrore we haev an edit conflict by you making a correction/addition - please take it all there and work it up to good shape, proerply wikifeified and cited, before you put it in main articlespace....Skookum1 (talk) 03:29, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

As a possible model, there's Utah Division (Denver and Rio Grande Western Railroad). --NE2 21:17, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

There is something strange in the article. Rogers Pass in in BC and Chief Crowfoot and the Blackfoot Nation are in Alberta. I guess the story of Rogers and the $ 5000 cheque should be changed to another location, maybe after Kicking Horse Pass. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.1.5.239 (talk) 01:33, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Not all that strange when you know that the Blackfoot used to frequent the East Kootenay/Columbia Valley.....will have to read the cite I guess, never heard of them on the Revelstoke-Jordan River part of the Columbia before......where peoples are todayand what their stated boundaries are is a new thing, though.....Skookum1 (talk) 16:32, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Lac-Mégantic derailment
The July 6, 2013 Lac-Mégantic derailment took place on the former CP mainline from Montréal to Saint John NB, which was sold to a series of short-line operators at the end of 1994. World Fuel Services, who owns the crude oil which derailed and destroyed downtown Lac-Mégantic, is being pursued by Québec's environment ministry and is defending itself by claiming the Montreal, Maine and Atlantic Railway short line responsible for the disaster is a subcontractor of Canadian Pacific, not WFS. Predictably, MM&A filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy exactly a month after the fire was extinguished and lawyers are now suing everyone right back to the oil field. 

Any reason for removing this info from the article, given that CP is likely to be named in litigation along with every other company remotely involved? K7L (talk) 17:06, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * As you say its "likely to be named" - it has not as of yet WP:NOTCRYSTALBALL. -- Moxy (talk) 17:14, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * My unsolicited opinion: There is also the question of whether information about the specific disaster incident or whether details about the Montreal, Maine and Atlantic Railway lawsuits would be relevant. Even if CPRail is named as a party to the lawsuits it would need to be seen whether CPRail is judically recognized as being an actual contractor and a legitimate party to the cases, the Judge could dismiss CPRail from the lawsuit which would mean updating the article to reflect the judically-recognized non-involved.
 * Also there is the question of special pleading in that mentioning the occasional historic events within any corporation's history of operation would need to be fairly complete to remain encyclopedic in the context of Wikipedia policy. This disaster could be mentioned if CPRail is Judically recognized to be culpable to any degree, yet a new section would need to be created which enumerates all known incidents of historic relevance, otherwise a single disaster rather stands out oddly. Damotclese (talk) 18:27, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The coverage of other disasters is incomplete; the 1910 Rogers Pass avalanche and the steamship collisions are there, but much of the rail history is missing - particularly the Spanish River derailment which killed 43 (some sources indicate 63) or the 1979 Mississauga train derailment, Canada's largest peacetime evacuation with 200000 displaced. This needs to be fixed by adding the missing info as these are historically notable. K7L (talk) 18:32, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

CP in Europe from 1912 onwards
Hi, everyone! I was looking for reference as to how Canadian Pacific coaches got to Italy, even as part of Mussolini's train, and I enclose the link to the site explaining this. http://retours.eu/en/12-canadian-pacific-cars-in-austria/# Hope you work on it. Keep up the good work. Cheers from Dario Romani Dario.romani1949@tiscali.it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.12.103.82 (talk) 11:00, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Canadian Pacific Map Update:
Obviously, this map of the CP is outdated. Compare the map currently at the top of the article with the map on the CPR website: http://www8.cpr.ca/cms/NR/rdonlyres/ewduhlm3vdvrx6jkj6akde4cqfrvfa3z3romag7ehjpvfhas4fqoqrwxrg3nk3mumx567qi2f5iff4h4kdoevfpkmge/Rev3Yplan+13+November+2009+English.pdf This above link is a map of every single line (mainline & branchline) on the CP system as of 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.235.98.213 (talk) 00:46, 6 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Obviously, the map of CPR is outdated: http://www.cpr.ca/en/choose-rail/network-and-facilities Wait.  This is still broken?  Yeesh.  If I had any artistic talent, I'd fix it, alas ... --plaws (talk) 02:58, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Another way the map is outdated: http://www.cpr.ca/en/investors/cp-completes-sale-of-the-southern-portion-of-d-h-line — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.226.95.41 (talk) 18:49, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Article Bias
This article reads a bit much like government and corporate propaganda and apologia, in places. It needs to be made more objective, and not just take one party's word as good coin.

User:Pazouzou —Preceding undated comment added 10:13, 16 January 2016 (UTC)