Talk:Canadian heraldry

To Do

 * Add section on Institutional heraldry in Canada
 * Add section on unique Canadian elements/practices (use of First Nations symbolism, unique colours (aqua & lavender), status of women/inheritance (e.g. inheritance through strict primogeniture)
 * Section on Canadian cadency marks

Prince of Canadat 22:43, 23 August 2008 (UTC) updated Prince of Canadat 01:22, 24 August 2008 (UTC)updated Prince of Canadat 15:32, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Nice work!
Have any facts from this article been submitted to DYK?? It seems a natural. If it hasn't been done yet, I'd be happy to take a stab at it. Anchoress · Weigh Anchor · Catacomb 03:48, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you :) Cameron suggested I put something in DYK, but I think I'm too close to be able to see what a good fact would be. I'd love it if you did.  Prince of Canadat 03:49, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, no problem. This is what I submitted:
 * "...that recipients of the Order of Canada are automatically entitled to receive a family Coat of Arms?" --Article by Prince of Canada, nom by Anchoress · Weigh Anchor · Catacomb 04:03, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * HERE is where the posting is located - there are sometimes requests for edits or clarifications before the fact is approved or rejected; it would be good if you could watch to respond to requests if any come up. Anchoress · Weigh Anchor · Catacomb 04:03, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Err.. I hate to be a jerk, but it's a personal coat of arms to which they are entitled... (and I hate hitting save too fast).. many thanks! Prince of Canadat 04:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Review
I fixed a couple MOS things, but the provincial and municipal galleries are something of a problem. They include some fair-use images (Coat of arms of Nunavut, for instance) and are generally unnecessary. Check the fair-use rationales for any images you keep. Some other things:
 * seems a bit much to have "heraldry" repeated in six headers
 * "For an individual to obtain a grant of arms, they..." I would try to avoid singular they, if possible
 * Probably ought to spell out CHA since you only use the acronym once

It would be nice if the refs included the publisher outside the title, but that's just a minor thing. Overall seems a good summary-style article. Gimmetrow 23:50, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you! I've reworded the headings, changed the 'they' bit, spelled out CHA, and removed the image  galleries as wading through byzantine and often-conflicting fair-use doctrines is far too tiring. Prince of Canadat 00:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The two remaining images with fair use issues are the CHA logo Image:Coat_of_arms_of_the_CHA.jpg, and the current COA of Canada Image:Coat_of_arms_of_Canada.svg. The 1957 version Image:Coat of Arms of Canada (1957).jpg is no longer under crown copyright, so that might be a solution for one image. Gimmetrow 01:25, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Renominated and passed GA per User:Dana boomer 24 October, 2008. Congratulations! Wilhelm_meis (talk) 01:47, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Ref 37
How much is this supporting? Because it's at the end of a comma'd bit, it's importance is played down. I'd suggest either duplicating it to the end of the previous sentence (although I'm not generally in support of pointless duplication) or end the sentence at "arms", put the ref there, then rephrase "as are the following:" into a separate sentence, perhaps "The following groups or people are also entitled to do this:". Then you wouldn't need ref 37 twice. - Jarry1250 [ humourous – discuss ] 11:05, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Is this better? → ROUX   ₪  11:15, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, I'm good with that. It's just a case of making everything water-tight. - Jarry1250 [ humourous – discuss ] 11:17, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Aye, no worries. It was a bit clunky. I anticipate you seeing problems with the cadency section. In my own defence, the CHA has not published any specific variants (if they depart from the norm) of the brisures used, thus the footnote. Unfortunately the CHA has been... less than stellar in responding to questions (I asked about cadency, as well as clarification on how inheritance works for adopted children, as well as how the CHA is going to handle spousal use of arms for LGBT couples), so that's the best I could do. → ROUX   ₪  11:28, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Companions

 * Those who have been appointed to the Order of Canada as Companions, or have been raised to the rank of Companion

Why doesn't this simply say Companions of the Order of Canada? Is there a way to become one, other than such appointment or raising? —Tamfang (talk) 07:40, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Good point. → ROUX   ₪  08:04, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Citation needed

 * "a special symbol for United Empire Loyalists"

Can I please see this symbol? --  Denelson83  15:05, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes you can, if you scroll down the page to the section about United Empire Loyalists instead of just reading the intro. → ROUX   ₪  15:55, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Cadency
Cadency began in the 13th century; John Writhe may have been responsible for the particular system of marks now used. These two statements are not contradictory. I shall amend. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:35, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Composition
As far as the writing is concerned, it must be said that the article is very well written. If nothing, there is very little to say about the grammar and punctuation. The way the article was written should serve as a model for composition on Wikipedia. PDCP (talk) 21:35, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Well thanks. I wrote most of it, with very excellent help from an extremely talented handful of others. → ROUX   ₪  23:44, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Loyalist crowns
Can someone with a little bit of knowledge of heraldry convince Roux that his statement " 'incorrect' in heraldry as long as the object is recognizable " is pure nonsense?

Oak leafs Stick from on which multiple leafs are attached:

Further, Steifer's files are a glitchy mess. I don't know what he did with them, but neither Wikipedia nor Inkscape render them properly. Adelbrecht (talk) 19:18, 8 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I have quite a lot of knowledge about heraldry, thanks; take a look at who wrote this article. It seems you do not. So long as an object is recognizably described by the blazon, it is correct. That is how heraldry works. If the blazon describes an oak leaf, and the image is recognizably an oak leaf, then barring any modifications to the description (e.g. proper or whatnot) the image is correct. The blazon is definitive; the depiction is not. What part of this is unclear to you? → ROUX   ₪  19:46, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

What nonsense. It only vaguely resembles an oak leaf. It's a stick with multiple leafs. Further, you do not address the obvious glitchy file. As I am looking in your past contributions, it's clear what kind of contributor you are. You have been blocked many times, and now it seems you are mainly trying to continue your tirade against Sodacan, who you tried to accuse of copyright violation. It's really disgusting that you are continuing your ignorant temper tantrum against Sodacan against people who follow his style. Adelbrecht (talk) 20:42, 8 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Please look up heraldic oak leaves and understand that there is wide latitude for artistic licence in heraldic art. Those are recognizable as oak leaves. I didn't address the alleged 'glitchiness' of the file because I see none. My concerns with Sodacan's writing are irrelevant here and I have no idea why you would bring it up, excepting perhaps that you have no idea what you are talking about vis a vis heraldry and are throwing everything but the kitchen sink at me to try and get your way. You failed to address my question: what part of 'the blazon is definitive, the depiction is not' is unclear to you? What part of 'as long as the object is recognizable (which it is), it is heraldically correct' is unclear to you? → ROUX   ₪  21:48, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 * This is not about artistic license. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Oak_leaves_in_heraldry You can see tons of different drawing of heraldic oak leafs here, some detailed, some simplified. None of them are compound leafs.] The glitchy file is blatantly obvious: the lines are broken (like OpenOffice Writer renders complex SVG), elements don't match, ... Also, I'm quite sick of your insults. I'm devoting a lot of time in creating heraldry to illustrate Wikipedia, while you seem to have nothing better to do than insult people like Sodacan & I by implying we don't know anything about heraldry. Perhaps you should be checked for copyright violations, as you claim to have written this article. I'm not wasting anymore time on this, I hope someone with some common sense (and a better understanding of heraldry) comes around and has more time to waste than me.Adelbrecht (talk) 22:07, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 * So I just want to be clear: it's perfectly okay for you to insult me, but it's not okay for me to call your knowledge into question? Fuck that with a rusty chainsaw. → ROUX   ₪  05:39, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Royal arms in infobox
User:Trackratte why do you insist on using an old version of the Canadian royal arms at the head of infobox? Surely it is more logical to display the royal arms as they are currently borne by the Queen of Canada. Zacwill16 (talk) 10:30, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Zac, thanks for starting a conversation, and sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner.
 * First of all, the depiction that you posted into the infobox is a user generated designed that has been, through consensus over the past few years, removed from use in any of the pages where it was attempted. The current design is not allowed to be used in any page other than the Arms of Canada wiki page due to (in my opinion) an overly restrictive "ruling" by an admin as the Arms are copyrighted. So, an unofficial user generated design is inappropriate, and the 1994 state design is not allowed by the admins, so the logical option was to use a state design that the admins would allow.
 * Second, due to the topic of the article, it doesn't really matter that the 1957 design is no longer in use by the Government of Canada. The 1957 Arms are still used in RCMP and Canadian Armed Forces rank insignia for example, and its symbolic value is the same. The reason why they are displayed in the infobox is to show the Queen of Canada's place as the "fount of honour" and originator and authority for all Canadian heraldry. I think the 1957 arms due an ample job of that, with the benefit that these Arms (I'm talking about this specific design not the blazon) were personally approved by the Queen as her personal arms. Whereas the user generated design was definitely not.
 * Third, the use of the use-generated design has caused great upset and offence to some users, which I can see their point. It would be the same issue as publishing a "Canadian Flag" within an encylcopedia with a natural looking 30-point maple leaf instead of the straight-edge 11-point maple leaf. Yes, both renditions would be heraldically correct, but that's not the point, there is only one true Canadian flag, and anything else, heraldically correct or not, could be seen as offensive.
 * Fourth, if consensus is formed that the majority of editors here do not want the 1957 Arms, then I would suggest using the Arms of the Canadian Heraldic Authority (if not copyrighted), instead of getting into a huge, emotionally charged debate which has already happened regarding the exact image you posted on at least three different occasions/articles that I can remember off-hand.
 * Hope that helps! trackratte (talk) 00:12, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

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