Talk:Canberra/Archive 6

Demographics
This article contains a pointer to an article Demographics of Canberra under Canberra. We now appear to have duplicated most of the information from the other article in the Canberra article itself. I believe this is overkill and should be deleted from the main article. This duplication tends to lead to one or the other article only being updated in the future leading to conflicting information being present in the two articles concerned. Some of this is also duplicated in Australian Capital TerritoryFleet Lists (talk) 04:08, 16 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I agree the Demographics of Canberra article is unnecessary as it is so small as to include the same information from the Demographics subsection on the main Canberra article.


 * Even much larger cities like Perth and Adelaide do not have their own separate demographics article so it is unnecessary.


 * As for the subsection in the main article, I have updated it to reflect just a small section in the scheme of the demographics articles for most cities (take a look at those for most global cities which are much larger and more detailed). The previous section was very very small and provided almost no information on the big ticket demographic items like ancestry and country of birth which are fundamental to most city article's demographics section including all Australian capital cities.


 * So absolutely it should stay on the main article but I would suggest merging the Demographics of Canberra separate article as it is unnecessary given the small amount of content in there.--StormcrowMithrandir (talk) 04:14, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I would have no objection to it being merged as a long as we reduce the duplication. The impact on the Australian Capital Territory article would also need to be considered. As you would be more familiar with the subject matter than I am, can I leave it to you to get this moving? Fleet Lists (talk) 04:45, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi, yes I have simply duplicated it under the demographics section for the ACT as the ABS uses the ACT GCCSA for all statistics (ie the exact boundaries of the ACT) so figures are the same for both. This way when the next census comes around in 2021, I can just copy and paste the demographics section direct from the Canberra article to the ACT article which is less work than dealing with unique edits on multiple different formats. My apologies, on second thought looking at the Demographics of Canberra article there are certainly some other items in there which wouldn't usually go on the main city article (historical populations by region, age structure, sex ratios, etc) which should probably stay there so I will put it on my watchlist and update both with the ancestry/immigration/language/religion data using the exact same format once the 2021 census data is released.--StormcrowMithrandir (talk) 04:52, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I note your changes to the relative section in this article today. As mentioned above a lot of this section is duplicated in Australian Capital Territory. I believe it should only be present in the one place as duplicated information only grows apart as usually only one or the other is updated. You opinion please.Fleet Lists (talk) 05:52, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I edited the climate section, not the demographics section. I have no opinion about this issue. Graham 87 06:50, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 April 2020
I want to edit this because I would like to fix up grammar issues Brendy135246 (talk) 02:14, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. (The article is semi-protected, so you will be able to edit it after your account is at least four days old and you have made at least ten edits to other Wikipedia articles.) GoingBatty (talk) 02:52, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

This page has been protected for over a decade, why is that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.150.71.154 (talk) 21:36, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Infobox
I know you probably already come to agreement on the infobox, but why is the infobox different for Australia cities then it is for other cities, such as Paris or London? BigRed606 (talk) 02:12, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Because there is no good reason why the Australia infobox should be changed.--Grahame (talk) 05:54, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Grahame, I not saying that it should be changed what I am saying is why is it different then infoboxes of other cities such as London, Paris, New York.BigRed606 (talk) 04:31, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Ca-ber-ra in the Sydney Language
This book says that "Ca-ber-ra" means "Head" in the Sydney Language. Canberra is the the capitol of Australia, so it's somewhat like the head of the federal government. Anyone know if there's any connection? 2601:240:4600:F870:1498:2CBE:C9B4:648D (talk) 05:22, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * See Canberra Nick-D (talk) 10:16, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

There is no Sydney language. The indigenous Australians of the region of modern day Sydney spoke Dharug. Typheuss (talk) 13:06, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

pronunciation:

 * /ˈkænbrə/, /ˈkænbərə/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:4125:927B:C5AB:6F02:9220:53A3 (talk) 12:40, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * No idea what those symbols are trying to tell me, but there is a little audio file at the start of the article that tells you how Australians pronounce it. HiLo48 (talk) 00:55, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Bugger me if I'm not hearing an American accent in that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.150.71.154 (talk) 21:38, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

It says "KAN-bə-rə" - who knows what that means - but it strongly suggests three syllables. There's only two. So is that what it's supposed to be? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Local Potentate (talk • contribs) 10:03, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2021 - updating footnote 256
Change footnote 256 from "Copyright Act 1968 (Cth) s 201" to "Copyright Act 1968 (Cth) s 195CA" 194.193.43.115 (talk) 13:04, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:07, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2021
Canberra’s climate has now technically shifted to a humid subtropical climate since the year of 2008 to the present because of ongoing climate change and I think the climate selection should now be updated and refined to reflect that. The new Canberra Airport weather station opened since 2008 reported a high of 30.6 degrees, low of 14.2 degrees and average of 22.4 degrees during the hottest month, which would pass the 22 degrees isotherm that is required. The Australian Bureau of Meteorology confirms these statistics as they have observed the climate for many decades, and because they’re the official government source of the climate information, weather data and statistics in Australia. As a native Canberran, I can also confirm that we also regularly experience days above 30 degrees Celsius which is a very common characteristic of a humid subtropical climate and is not what you would find in a regular oceanic climate. In order to keep the information up to date and for it to be useful when studying climate and learning about the world, the climate of Canberra should be updated to humid subtropical and the table should be updated to then reflect that. http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_070351.shtml115.64.115.33 (talk) 08:49, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 09:11, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 September 2021
The infobox gives a population figure and says that it dates from 2020. Please change 2020 to "June 2020" because (1) the first paragraph of the introduction gives the same number and says that it's from June, and (2) the ACT article's infobox gives a December 2020 population that's slightly different, so the month ought to be given here to alleviate potential confusion. 64.203.186.73 (talk) 16:13, 9 September 2021 (UTC) 64.203.186.73 (talk) 16:13, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ -322UbnBr2 (Talk &#124; Contributions &#124; Actions) 04:03, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 November 2021
The description of the 'popular' pronounciations of the name 'Canberra', given so as to indicate contrast with that used at the city's founding, is applicable only to those for whom Australian English is not a first language. The 'original' pronounciation is that used by those for whom it is. 14.203.129.207 (talk) 14:28, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:38, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I have changed "popularly" to sometimes. The experts in IPA seem to claim that while Canberrans don't pronounce the "e" and it was rarely so pronounced in the 19th century there is no real difference between a slightly pronounced "e" and no pronounced sound at all to most ears. Either way the word "popularly" to represent a very non-standard pronunciation is odd.--Grahame (talk) 03:08, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Outdated Map
The current map displayed in the article: is 10+ years out of date. The map itself doesn't appear to be dated, but based on the fact it doesn't include the Canberran suburbs of Thodore, Gordon, Conder, Banks, Whitlam, Denman Prospect, and others it must be at least 10-years old. Aeonx (talk) 22:35, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2022
I suggest a change of the below line contained within the 'Climate' section:

"The area is not very windy and the breeze is at its strongest from August to November."

To the following, which highlights the possibility of strong northwest and easterly winds (with references included below):

"The area is generally sheltered from a westerly wind, though strong northwesterlies can develop. A cool, vigorous afternoon easterly change, colloquially referred to as a 'sea-breeze' or the 'Braidwood Butcher', is common during the summer months and often exceeds 40 km/h in the city." 120.159.41.94 (talk) 00:54, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ Helen (💬📖) 18:27, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

IPA pronunciation
As a native Australian and linguist, the IPA pronunciation should be changed to /ˈkænbrʌ/, or /ˈkænbrɐ/, depending on preference. It is unmistakeably a two-syllable pronunciation. No Australian ever pronounces it in the way displayed on the page. Thanks! Sl0wr0lla (talk) 10:51, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Alternatively, /ˈkænbra/ (I'm not sure on low mid vowel preferences on Wikipedia). Sl0wr0lla (talk) 10:54, 27 March 2021 (UTC)


 * The slashes (/.../) in IPA denote standard phonemes. What you suggest are dialectal variants, and those are properly held between square brackets ([...]). If you believe that those pronunciations are accurate, by all means put them after the "standard" pronunciation — between square brackets. This all arises from a distinction between phonology and phonetics, one that only language nerds like me ever seem to make (I have a degree in this stuff). Also, other users might demand a reference...


 * Hiding somewhere in the archived Talks is a long discussion about how "Canberra" is supposed to be pronounced. I was the one who started it after noticing that somebody had put a peculiar pronunciation in the article with stress on the second syllable. Kelisi (talk) 19:51, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I find these IPA codes awful hard to navigate, and am only just now figuring that the pronounce option needs to be cooded, but then, I don't like this camberra ogg file, sounds like cairnbra (Cairns) not cans, but, the whooo, I like canbra, and I use the example, Canberra, not Milperra, but Milperra, not Canberra. Dave Rave (talk) 08:25, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

There seems little interest in addressing these problems. At the moment we have /ˈkænbərə/ : To most readers, this is another language, and of little value. May as well render it in Arabic. Sound file: Sounds like an American, as a Canberran I would redo it, but I have an unlovely droney voice :) KAN-bə-rə: And this one, it's hard to interpret this as anything but three syllables, which is definitely wrong. It's pronounced Canbra, and these entries should reflect that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Local Potentate (talk • contribs) 09:21, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

@Sl0wr0lla: I´m an Australian, and I pronounce it with three syllables. I don´t claim to be a local, though: I´m from Melbourne. SRamzy (talk) 10:48, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 August 2022
Change the Population of Canberra from 453,559 to 467,000. Vecera 999 (talk) 23:38, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime  ( open channel ) 23:38, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2023
The text says that Canberra is the 8th largest city overall. This should be amended to say that Canberra is the 8th largest city in Australia. This is because the search engine generates questioning saying that Canberra is the 8th largest city in the world which is incorrect. Please replace 'overall' with 'in Australia'.

Douxant (talk) 00:32, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

✅ Thanks for the request! Illusion Flame (talk) 00:42, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done M.Bitton (talk) 00:43, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Including Aboriginal Country Name
In Aotearoa/New Zealand, the local iwi (or tribe) is listed for most, if not all towns and cities. For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauranga.

I think that we should include the Indigenous Country/Nation that Canberra resides in the info box on the right side. I'd like to get this started on all major Aus city pages.

Is there any objection to including this information in the infographic box for this page? It could be described in a variety of ways, eg. Local Indigenous nation, Indigenous Australian group, First Nation Country, and happy to take suggestions. Edit: Forgot to add the actual one I was thinking: Traditional Custodians

I would be linking: [], []

https://www.act.gov.au/ngunnawal-country https://www.nma.gov.au/learn/encounters-education/community-stories/canberra — Preceding unsigned comment added by Satsumarolls (talk • contribs) 00:52, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Pronunciation
G'day, I'm curious as to the pronunciation of Canberra. It my sense, and personal pronunciation, that Can-BER-RA should be changed to Can-BRUH. However, I am just one person and not representative of Australia as a whole. Not to mention that I'm a Queenslander, the Blues would riot if they found out I was editing this page with a banana bender pronunciation. IronBattalion (talk) 01:38, 30 August 2022 (UTC).
 * You're stressing the word on the last syllable, which is wrong. It ought to be CAN-bruh, not can-BRUH. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  01:56, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Jack the Ozzie is correct. Mind you, if we want to say it very slowly the missing syllable shows itself: CAN-buh-ruh. But at normal speaking speed, two syllables. McKay (talk) 02:09, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Jack and McKay are correct. HiLo48 (talk) 02:20, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I was more showing the change in the two forms rather than syllable stress, but I do agree with you. Though as Mckay has pointed out, there are certain scenarios where the original is used. In the article should we showcase both or use the most common one for pronunciation. Personally I'm leaning towards the latter. IronBattalion (talk) 02:58, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree. I have been to Canberra many times and have only every heard can-bruh there and everywhere else in Australia, the current pronunciation is completely wrong. I will change it. Just your average wikipedian (talk) 03:44, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

The three syllable version shouldn't be there, but if it is removed, someone will just reinsert immediately, despite how many times it's been pointed out that it's a two syllable word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Local Potentate (talk • contribs) 07:47, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Would anyone be totally opposed to a suggestion that some speakers use a pronunciation that somehow almost replaces the "n" with an "m", making it lean towards but not being exactly Cam-bruh? HiLo48 (talk) 09:47, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

User:Nardog has been repeatedly changing the pronunciation to one that is incorrect, want to assume good faith but that's getting increasingly difficult. You refuse to make any comments in the talk section explaining your reasoning and any depth. In the links you made in your edit, one says "Local pronunciations are of particular interest" yet you continually remove the local pronunciation. To reach a compromise I've added the incorrect pronunciation after the real one as a "rare" alternative. Like I said, I would like to assume good faith and that this is all a big misunderstanding, but if you continue to make this change whilst being complete silent in the talk section I really can't see any other explanation than you deliberately trying to mislead people from outside Australia. If you don't respond to this and once again alter the pronunciation I don't see any other solution than to report your vandalism. However I hope this can be solved without that happening. Just your average wikipedian (talk) 10:17, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I didn't realize you had already made a section here. I appreciate you initiating it and I apologize for not participating in it sooner. I don't think the use of /ʌ/ and uh would be defensible in any way. I don't have access to the sixth edition of Macquarie right now, but the first edition has it "/ˈkænbərə, ˈkænbrə/" (as does Australian Oxford Dictionary) and I don't know of any dictionary that regards /ʌ/ as anything other than a checked vowel, i.e. always followed by a consonant. I highly doubt the first notation is supported by the source cited.
 * WP:DIAPHONEMIC is pretty clear on the use of /ər/. Help:IPA/English, which IPAc-en links the notation to, defines /ər/ as history, even though if you look it up on virtually any dictionary, the vowel there is either indicated to be optional (as in /ˈhɪst(ə)ri/) or not included at all (/ˈhɪstri/), meaning so long as the conventions of Help:IPA/English are used (as recommended by MOS:PRON), the situation in which a pronunciation with /r/ derived from /ər/ followed by a weak vowel exists is always represented as /ər/, because the elision of the vowel is predictable (as explained in note 32). There are hundreds of articles, such as Hyderabad, Edinburgh, David Attenborough, Apollo, Pittsburgh, Bat, Mercury (element), Niagara Falls, Genus, Ankara, currently using the sequence . In ALL of these cases, without exception, an alternative pronunciation without /ə/ exists. So if we represented Canberra as " or ", it wouldn't make sense if we also didn't change all the hundreds of instances of to " or ". And that's just . Similar variations are expected in virtually any word, and that's where the whole idea behind Help:IPA/English lies, as WP:DIAPHONEMIC summarizes: "there is little point in transcribing Oxford as ,,, , , or , depending on accent, and this would add a considerable amount of clutter to the article."
 * is also the stable version from May 2018. Nardog (talk) 01:55, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * But it's not how it's pronounced by most Australians today. HiLo48 (talk) 06:02, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Again, "" already means "/ˈkænbərə/ or /ˈkænbrə/". A WP:DIAPHONEMIC notation does not represent one definitive "this is how it's pronounced", but a range of many. Nardog (talk) 06:36, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * But why include a form that is three syllables? HiLo48 (talk) 22:33, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Why not? Does Macquarie include only the disyllabic one? Nardog (talk) 12:04, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
 * McKay said on this page in 2016: So I assume not. Nardog (talk) 12:50, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Because 1985 was 37 years ago and languages change, and several Australians said the opposite at the beginning of this thread. HiLo48 (talk) 21:01, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The quote says my printed 1985 edition of the Macquarie Dictionary and the current edition online at the National Library both agree with me. Both Longman Pronunciation Dictionary and Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary give with an optional schwa before the rhotic (indicated with italics in LPD and as a superscript schwa in CEPD). Per MOS:DIAPHONEMIC, this is to be transcribed . And  is out of question for the final vowel since that indicates a checked vowel (i.e. a vowel that absolutely requires a following consonant due to the fact that it stems from  (see foot-strut split) which is restricted in the exact same way). In Australia and New Zealand, final  is often closer in quality to, but we don't follow that practice - and neither does any Australian scholar I'm aware of. Cox & Fletcher (2017:163) explicitly recommend transcribing this vowel with ⟨ə⟩ regardless of its quality and that is the transcription you'll find in every dictionary, Australian or otherwise.
 * This is not the first time that Australian editors expect a special treatment for IPA transcriptions of Australian placenames (Melbourne immediately comes to mind in this case). As long as the IPAc-en template is used (and there's no reason not to use it in this context), MOS:DIAPHONEMIC applies and the transcription must match Help:IPA/English. Same with the Respell template: if you use it, the transcription must match WP:RESPELL.
 * If you dislike the use of ⟨ərə⟩ in this context and would like to change it to something else (LPD-style ⟨ərə⟩ or CEPD-style ⟨ᵊrə⟩, or maybe ⟨(ə)rə⟩), you're welcome to raise the issue at Help talk:IPA/English. Sol505000 (talk) 22:25, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I can assure you Australian editors will continue to request that Wikipedia articles reflect reality. HiLo48 (talk) 01:51, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Then the WP:BURDEN is on them to provide the reliable sources that demonstrate such reality. Nardog (talk) 02:53, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
 * You are, of course, correct in seeking sources, but I believe there is a burden on all of us to make Wikipedia a great encyclopaedia. Implying that good faith comments from experienced and well-meaning editors are wrong does not achieve that. HiLo48 (talk) 23:59, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
 * And we do that by making every disputed or disputable claim verifiable with reliable sources and not putting our original research in. I can't believe I'm faced with a "But it's true!" argument in 2022 from an editor of your tenure. Being in good faith or experienced does not give you an excuse to disregard our core content policies. Nardog (talk) 02:13, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * If you reread the first sentence of my previous post, you will see that your allegation is completely false. YOUR good faith here is seriously in question. HiLo48 (talk) 02:17, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * but in that sentence implies you disagree with my assertion on the basis of WP:V that in order to remove the trisyllabic variant from the article, one must demonstrate its disappearance citing a reliable source. Are you saying you don't? Nardog (talk) 04:32, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what that post means. What I am saying is what I wrote. HiLo48 (talk) 10:44, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm asking if you still object to keeping the trisyllabic pronunciation in the article. Nardog (talk) 13:36, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It could be mentioned, but only as a very unusual pronunciation, not one that is in any way common. HiLo48 (talk) 22:02, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * And what is your source for its being uncommon? Nardog (talk) 04:17, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Reality. HiLo48 (talk) 06:44, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Then you can look for a better source (see WP:V) and kindly stop wasting our time. I've reverted to the stable version that doesn't violate MOS:DIAPHONEMIC. Sol505000 (talk) 09:05, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
 * What's the point of having sourced content that's wrong? Serious question. HiLo48 (talk) 09:20, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
 * MOS:DIAPHONEMIC says that the aim of Help:IPA/English and transcriptions linking to it (those that use the IPAc-en template) is to accomodate multiple varieties of English at once, the transcription is clearly correct. Canberra is a varisyllabic word that may as well consistently have two syllables in Australia (per e.g., which isn't a valid source for WP) - not so in Britain and the US, where it usually has three (per LPD and CEPD). Sol505000 (talk) 09:53, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
 * You've been here for 14 years and made 79K edits. You know full well that's not how things work on Wikipedia. Serious question is a clear indication of WP:SEALION. I think we're done here. Nardog (talk) 10:53, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Not at all. It seems we might actually be finally getting somewhere, with your acknowledgement that the Australians editors at the head of this section are correct about how the name is pronounced in Australia, with that perhaps being different from the way it is pronounced in some other places. Surely it's important that the article describes those two DIFFERENT pronunciations AND where they are used. HiLo48 (talk) 21:16, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Well this getting depressing — Before I start, the initial transcription of 'bruh' was not based on any policy but on how it sounded to me at the time, and in any case shouldn't we use the local English variety for the IPA in relevant place names? After all, is it not the locals who know the pronunciation and its spelling idiosyncrasies? Because if that's the case I think it is appropriate that I pronounce Arkansas as Ar-kan-sas, that's how it is spelt right? (Sarcasm aplenty here). Moving on, to head off this meaningless discussion, if you want I can record my voice and supply it to Wikipedia. Do note that I might change my /n/ to an /m/ (Thanks to HiLo for the realisation), and that I naturally substitute the voiced labiodental approximant for the voiced alveolar approximant (I have a different r). And as a general rule of thumb we shorten everything and drop a lot of intervening vowels, Moreover we are non-rhotic to our cores. Its like Melbourne; its not pronounced Mel-Borne, its Mel-Bin... plebs. IronBattalion (talk) 14:35, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Or Mel-bn. HiLo48 (talk) 21:34, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Canberra has two syllables, anything else is we would consider an understandable but definite mispronunciation, that's just a fact. Can-BRUH is as good as any in rendering it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Local Potentate (talk • contribs) 04:08, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Canberra area
Could someone independently work out an appropriate current area of Canberra, from some explained official source or otherwise.

Reasons: 1) The reference for the Canberra area size comes from a 2005 spreadsheet which is reachable by following the links of reference 4. This suggests it is outdated. Further the reference table does not indicate what boundaries are being used, and includes a majority of 'open space'. 2) Further to 1), the 814km^2 is therefore > 1/3 of the area of the ACT. This is hard to understand given a look at the satellite imagery of the ACT area. 3) The interpretation of area implied currently is likely to be incompatible with the area measurements of other cities, although this is a difficult requirement to harmonise. KangarooHerder (talk) 14:17, 23 October 2023 (UTC)