Talk:Cancioneiro de Lisboa

Is this really the Cancioneiro de Lisboa?
I renamed this article to "Cancioneiro de Lisboa" based on what was said in the article, but now I am in doubt. I could find no references that the MS P-Lm Res CIC 60 is really called Cancioneiro de Lisboa. The Portuguese Wiki, differently, redirects Cancioneiro de Lisboa to the Cancioneiro da Biblioteca Nacional, a bulky manuscript with more than 1600 Medieval songs. The National Library in Lisbon states in their site that the title of this little songboog is Cancioneiro musical da Biblioteca Nacional. Can someone please confirm that this is the Cancioneiro de Lisboa? —capmo (talk) 16:03, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That is a pertinent question. This is what I know about it:
 * The medieval manuscript (Colocci-Brancuti) was found before the renaissance manuscript (CIC-60). The Colocci-Brancuti became known as 'Cancioneiro da Biblioteca Nacional' because, when it was acquired (1924), it was kept at the national library.
 * In 1978, the musicologist Manuel Morais took notice of the renaissance manuscript (CIC-60). When he published his study, he called it 'Cancioneiro Musical da Biblioteca Nacional de Lisboa', but it became more common to call it 'Cancioneiro da Biblioteca Nacional de Lisboa' or 'Cancioneiro da Biblioteca Nacional', just like 'Cancioneiro Musical d'Elvas' is commonly known as 'Cancioneiro d'Elvas', and 'Cancionero Musical de Palacio' is known as 'Cancionero de Palacio'.
 * Hence the confusion between the manuscripts. Both are kept at the Biblioteca Nacional de Lisboa, so both are known as 'Cancioneiro da Biblioteca Nacional'.
 * Eventually - maybe to avoid this confusion, or because 'Cancioneiro da Biblioteca Nacional' is still too large a name - the renaissance manuscript has been called 'Cancioneiro de Lisboa' or 'Cancioneiro Musical de Lisboa' by some early music performers (eg: Il Dolcimelo, Continens Paradisi, etc).
 * All this is to say that there are no official names for the manuscripts. Their names are what performers and scholars commonly call them. Some call CIC-60 'Cancioneiro da Biblioteca Nacional de Lisboa', others call it 'Cancioneiro de Lisboa'. In this case, it's up to you to decide, it's just a question of preference. However, be aware that the Colocci-Brancuti was never called 'Cancioneiro de Lisboa', but always 'Cancioneiro da Biblioteca Nacional'. Thus, its article should not be renamed.
 * (Note: the Portuguese wiki doesn't have an article about the renaissance manuscript - CIC-60/Cancioneiro de Lisboa/etc. The person who redirected 'Cancioneiro de Lisboa' to the medieval 'Cancioneiro da Biblioteca Nacional' must have thought they were both the same codex).Nuno Raimundo (talk) 23:08, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok Nuno, thanks for the information. Searching for "Cancioneiro de Lisboa" on the internet I wasn't able to find any "official" site using such designation, but these early music groups you cited are enough references, I guess. I'm going to create the Portuguese article for this songbook, then. —capmo (talk) 12:30, 14 February 2009 (UTC)