Talk:Cantopop/Archive 1

cantopop
I still listen to Cantopop, it's practically all I listen to nowadays. I know of a few people that still listen and places that actually make profit from selling Cantopop music. --Glassram

Is there any half-decent Cantonese pop music, or is it all treacle? --Robert Merkel 04:41 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Is there really "westerners" listening to Cantopop? I doubt the sentence "To western ears,..." is NPOV.


 * Yes me for example! I also know personally of at least 5 or 6 other people who do. I'm sure thats not the total worldwide audience too. Chris Davies

nonmentions
The article fails to mention the composer 顧家輝, singer 仙度拉, and their song 啼笑姻緣 which overturned the preception that Cantopop as a second grade Music (i.e. for old uneducated person only). And it was Sammy Hui who finally pushed Cantopop to overtake Mandarin pop as the music of choice for HK youths. Wshun
 * Yes no mention at all of the Gu Gaa-fai,Wong Jim collaboration. No mention at all of the popularity of TVB TV theme songs, while everbody else was sticking their own lyrics onto somebody elses music these two, seemed to be the only people producing original material.Cetot 06:44, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

NPOVing

 * I'll try to NPOV the article more, but I claim no responsbility on content--you can't get much further from my musical domain than Cantopop. Phil Bordelon 05:06 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * No problem. I bet you have the chance to listen to the most popular Cantopop songs but not the best.  I will get the same preception if I listen only to Madonna or Britney Spears.


 * I didn't mean that I wouldn't like it. I meant that I've never heard any, and I certainly don't know the history behind it, so my editing is limited to grammar and attempts at NPOV. :) Phil Bordelon 05:23 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Tones
I heard that Cantonese music differs from Mandarin in that Mandarin respects the language tones in the melody, but Cantonese doesn't. Is it true? -- Error


 * Good Cantopops do respect the language tones in the melody, as all Chinese dialects are tone-sensitive. What you heard is a recent disaster in HK music, beautiful face is more important than singing skills and so songs become less important. But there are still many real musicians care about the tones and the melody. Wshun


 * Cantonese is more tonal than Mandarin. Mandarin only has 4 tones for each pronunciation, but Cantonese has at least 6 tones according to most dictionaries.  Some author even claims there are 9 tones in Cantonese.  Even though written Chinese can be pronunced in Cantonese or Mandarin, but the sound differs so much that you cannot sing a Cantonese song in Mardarin nor vice versa.  Many popular tunes get both Cantonese and Mandarin lyrics which are totally rewritten and sometimes with unrelated subjects.  Kowloonese 20:31, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes but Mandarin has a more pleasant rhythm when spoken with natural darkness and light and this translates into songs pleasnter on the ear.I've heard people talk about Cantonese as sounding like a machine gun on the ear.Cetot 06:44, 7 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Well Mandarin can only end with the nasal sounds 'n' and 'ng' or with a vowel. I guess that makes it easier to listen to. But I feel the additional Cantonese endings of 'm','p','t', and 'k' gives it more color. 66.171.76.138 01:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The article mentioned that most contopops lyrics has an 'end' rhyme ie the song Impression by Sam Hui. But actually many other western songs also rhymed never mind about cantopop songs, ie Summer Kisses Winter Tears (an Elvis Presley's song) cantopop lyrics by Sam Hui also rhymed at the end of each line. ''DARN, FARN, ARN, LARN. Therefore it is the tone of the song that governs the 'end' rhyme, not the cantopop song lyrics itself. This paragraph in the article is incorrect.

(Aakel)23:32 GMT 30 May 06

Music Piracy
And, how do Cantopop artists deal with music piracy? -- Error


 * Cantopop artists deal with piracy using the same technique as European or American artists, i.e. virtually nothing they can do!!! Wshun


 * But I was under the impression that in HK and Canton, media piracy was much much higher than in Europe or America. But there still are Cantopop artists. Are the economic models different? Do they resort to corporate patronage? ... -- Error

Cantopop artists main source of income come from advertising contract, concert (mainland and oversea tour). In order to reduce cost record companies also recycle old songs and only make 1 or 2 songs within an album (so call Classic + New song) . Also those advertising contract directly put advertisement (for example "Love and Promise" from Leon Lai actually contract advertisement from 3HK and Jewellery shops) within their package then they also like to put MTV relates to the advertising on top. In a way advertising subsides the cost of development of music. My wing hk 11:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Curious: How did you hear that "height" in Cantonese areas? --Menchi 00:40 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * I meant South China in general, but it should affect Cantopop. My source is Slashdot . Ehem. I think I read something in Wired of Bruce Sterling finding dirt-cheap pirated media there, but I don't find it. I though tit was common knowledge. -- Error


 * You have some of the most popular cantopop stars e.g. Joey Yung and Twins going on TV and saying how poor they are and asking their fans not to steal their livlihoods.And yes they do resort to corporate patronage of a sort.In the Joey Yung interview I was referring to, she claimed that she was making no money on her albums, but that she still had to produce albums to keep herself in the public eye and maintain her fanbase. With a large enough fanbase she can make money on personal appearances and concerts.For example Jade Kwan has recently been booked by a chain of bars, in the mainland, for a dozen or so 20 minute mini-concerts.Furthermore if you are popular enough you can make money through endorsments.There isn't a single reasonably attractive female cantopop singer who isn't endorsing cosmetics,skin whitening products,dieting companies,gyms or mobile phones.The sale of actual music can be considered a loss leader for the other benefits popularity can bring.Cetot 06:44, 7 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I've heard on more than one podcast, that western music artists don't make much, if any money, from their record/CD sales? Rather, their income comes mostly from touring and performing concerts, TV appearances, product endorsements and I suppose royalties.  Wouldn't that be the case for Canto/Mando-pop artists?  Do they really expect to get rich (especially in today's environment) on media sales where the bulk of the profit going to the record companies and that infrastructure? Southsloper 19:54, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

maydlin
I don't believe anyone with a semblence of musical knowledge would consider Madonna's output as typically "maudlin".

cantopop
i reckon cantopop rocks - it's really nice and much better than epop

Then I need to counter and say I think most cantopop from the late 1990s to the present suck. If not the singer's out-of-tune voice then it would be the awful aimless melodies.66.171.76.138 17:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Your comment is so generic, it can apply to any music industry HK/US/UK/Europe etc. Every industry has up and down trends. Cantopop is no different. Benjwong 17:45, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem with Cantopop singers is that around 99.99% of them DO NOT write any of their music (a few exceptions are Justin Lo and Hins Cheung, but still they do not write all of their music). That means when they sing or go to concert they get paid a salary or in some cases just get money from advertising and marketing. Touring is where they make their money. --Chaosbladeuk (talk) 20:25, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This has been true ever since Cantopop adopted the Western-market mainstream model, where composers are paid and hired to do the writing. They lean very west on this one, no denying that. Benjwong (talk) 20:56, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, to get an idea of how old this model has been adopted, I asked my dad about the whole specialization of musical jobs (e.g. production, composition, arrangement), and he thought it was completely normal to have people doing only one thing to contribute to a song. So it's been around for a while. The U.S. pop industry (not to be mixed with "rock") is quite similar in that regard - you didn't seriously think the Backstreet Boys wrote their music, right? Pandacomics (talk) 21:34, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

When you're slightly bigger you can actually be credited to the writing of the song, regardless if you put any say to the creation of the song. For instance, Madonna I can say hardly writes any of her song but due to that fact that any songs she records will be big, she can get money for the writing credits, through negotiating, due to her stardom. Referring to Benjwong comment, some people don't get hired to write music, they just write the song, and get paid when it's played on TV, radio etc (look at the list below) CASH is a Hong Kong music royalty society that pays out composers and writers of music (check also MCPS-PRS (UK), ASCAP (one of 3 in the US), SOCAM (Canada))

Some people do hire writers but they usually pay them a one off fee for the song but in doing so lose the rights to the song. I'm not too sure if theres anyone in Cantopop who has that power and say about writing credits (maybe Leon Lai?). --Chaosbladeuk (talk) 21:51, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Can the portions about Cantopop history be continuous?
Some problems with history of Cantopop. Starts out alright, then disappears, before reappearing in the last section. Mandel 16:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Possibly a copyright violation of this article

 * Same as Talk:HKVP Radio

I don't know, but I read this article and Cantopop, and the "Genre" section from this may be almost similar to the "Golden Age of Cantopop" section from that article. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think they sure looked probably the same. I don't know which one went first, but someone should be notified about this.--Gh87 10:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Technically, a copyright violation means unauthorized use of words or images from a source (particularly an external source) that has not given its consent in writing or otherwise. Using material from one Wikipedia article into another Wikipedia article would not be considered as a copyright violation. --speedoflight | talk to me 20:12, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Copyright regulations in Hong Kong
I don't know much about those regulations, and Wikipedia may probably not have enough talks about them elsewhere, especially in Hong Kong copyright law. The purpose to discuss the heading is that there were too many songs that were Japanese, American, European, Taiwanese, and other songs re-written in Cantonese, especially in the Golden era. Listen and compare the tunes of originals and remakes. For example, singers from Golden years like Alan Tam, Leslie Cheung, Sally Yeh, Danny Chan, Jacky Cheung, Priscilla Chan, Anita Mui, etc. sang so many that were originally too much to name with, like Miyuki Nakajima, Tracy Huang, Southern All Stars, Chage & Aska, etc. Doesn't anyone realize that music industry have little knowledge of real music and creativity since the late '70s or whatever? Also, I think the industry LOVES promoting idolism over the years since the birth of Cantopop music industry, such as Twins and Jenny Tseng. Did the law charge the music companies for copyright infringement and exploitation of international laws? I think I had enough of ranting, I suppose. Whether or not it happens, I believe people are happy and proud of listening them no matter what. --69.232.45.111 13:31, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, here is the link, although neutrality is somewhat disputed. So be careful --69.232.45.111 23:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Did the law charge the music companies for copyright infringement and exploitation of international laws? That link does not lead me to believe that music/lyrics are being borrowed illegally. KVenzke 23:40, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright, truthfully, I think I suck at saying things properly. Maybe here's my re-phrasement of that italic statement: "Did the companies ask owners of the original works their permission to remake them? If not, were they sued for illegal borrowing? What else?" I must admit I am not good at linking good sources of copyright regulations. Here's another try for Hong Kong's ways: and . Click anything within these sites. For database of copyright rules from HK and other areas: . I hope I'm doing better than that. --69.232.45.111 11:15, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

pro-Joey Yung POV?
This article mentions Joey Yung favorably twice:
 * Despite these circumstances, several performers like Joey Yung nowadays maintain their singing skills that are well-acclaimed and well-marketed.
 * By her mid-twenties, Joey Yung established herself as the premier female singer of Hong Kong, and is much admired. Her success earned her 15 million HKD in 2004 in product endorsements alone; her gross annual income for 2004 has been estimated to be in excess of 50 million HKD. In 2005, her total earnings has been reported to be more than 60 million HKD, behind only Jacky Chan, Andy Lau and Kelly Chen.

Is she really this awesome? KVenzke 23:09, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * She is the biggest female star of the moment though i think the above is a little OTT. Chris Davies

Typo?
Is it a Cantopop custom to use the word 'artistes' instead of the normal plural 'artists'? If not, it should be corrected. 84.231.177.64 07:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC) Yeah I was about to edit it and there is a comment saying that artiste is not a spelling mistake. Well I am pretty sure it is at least in standard English, but would love to hear or see an explanation here. Dbrodbeck 22:59, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I was thinking that was it "artists"... Yahoo Hong Kong Dictionary says that it's similar to "artist"...I'm getting confused. -Ericlaw02 10:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Someone made the comment in the edit page to keep artiste. Still not sure why, so it was left alone.  Benjwong 14:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Mass delete
I'm a little concerned by this edit. Can someone who knows more about this look over it please? enochlau (talk) 05:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I just reverted it... I think some of that material should be deleted, but I think the replacement material was POV (quoting a musician's prediction that Cantonese music's popularity will get "poorer and poorer"). KVenzke 18:57, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact that this musician prediction was part of his Doctoral thesis is a different story I am currently search for the thesis and put correct reference on it. My wing hk 07:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

nominated for
I nominated this article for POV investigation because I reviewed the whole article, and I found that it is somewhat biased, if not totally. Tell us your opinions, so we could settle things straight-forward. Gh87 00:42, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I feel like the use of Sammi Cheng as an example for her advertising achievement will be a bit misleading since Leon Lai is public know for his cellphone network tried up (currently 3HK). The hype he created was much more that Sammi and how come Sammi Cheng became the example instead of Leon Lai. The hype he created leads to (3 mins) advert and published newspaper advertising for the time and channel of the advert (1st time on TV) however I never seen Sammi Cheng achieved such a hype. My wing hk 11:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah it is not neutral as it doesn't state the fact that HK pop since the late 1990s had been heavily dominated by beautiful people who can't hold a tune. This gives a chance for mainland China and Taiwan singers to infringe into Cantopop. 66.171.76.138 01:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The Sammi Cheng example was there before the page was repaired. Please use whatever example you think is best.  The mandopop page is now repaired with the others.  It needs some 1990s and 2000s mandopop expertise.  Feel free to contribute.  Benjwong 03:27, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

A source you might like
It's about the effects of cantopop in Singapore.

http://journals.cambridge.org/production/action/cjoGetFulltext?fulltextid=163354 - Pandacomics 17:12, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's another link:
 * Corliss, Richard. Time Magazine. Cantopop Kingdom: Hong Kong music circles the globe with its easy-listening hits and stars. 2001. Pandacomics 05:28, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

The music?
Could we have a bit more about the music eg melodic structure, harmony, rhythm etc? Not that there is anything wrong with the history, sociology etc but it needs more on Cantopop as music.

Also the romanised Cantonese should use standard jyutping. m.e. 12:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * done. Benjwong 18:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The lyricist, composers, and producers
Could there be any introduction to lyricis, composers, and producers instead of only pop stars? Those people are equally important, if not more important than the pop stars as the stars for the music industry... Bluetact 05:00, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The two biggest Joseph Koo & James Wong are mentioned. Benjwong 14:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Compared to the number of pop star being mentioned, don't you think the names of lyricis, composers, and producers being introduced are too few? Plus, if I am not wrong, these two are active mostly during 70-80, and James Wong is even dead. How about others, and producers? Only two lyricists/composers over the entire 50+ years of Cantopop. Looks ultimate unreasonableBluetact 23:28, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You are welcome to add all you like. We could use more help. You can also talk to the people at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Modern Chinese music‎. Benjwong 21:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Leon Lai Ming - Sugar in the Marmalade.ogg
Image:Leon Lai Ming - Sugar in the Marmalade.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 13:04, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Music Label
As far as I know, Gold label is not subsidary of East Asia Record, the only common in this 2 company (Which only refer to amusic) is that Mark Lui is sever as director for both company. Gold label was managed by Paco and amusic by Leon and/or Mr Lam, they have no relationship or partnership as far as I understand. Could anyone site the source please.

My wing hk 07:51, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

"a soft whining cat noise"
A forum post is being used as a reference? It's not even linked to the right page where the comment was made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.34.85 (talk) 09:14, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Good catch thanks. I think user Prtscsysr talked trashed on a forum and then referenced himself for encyclopedic purpose. Benjwong (talk) 00:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Sample songs
Would it be possible to get a sample song sung by a female voice? Louis Waweru  Talk 01:59, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Cantopop Bubblegum Trash
Maybe this article should reflect the fact that most of it is commercial, manufactured rubbish, with little variety or innovation. Cantopop, if it ever had these qualities, stagnated thirty or more years ago. This article actually makes it sound as if the material is listenable, and/or intelligent. It's nearly all the lowest kind of pop music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.219.206 (talk) 15:37, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Cantopop has possibly the widest spectrum of all pop music. From dynastic old to futuristic.  If you think it ever stagnated, you need to go check your facts. Within the pop genre, k-pop and mandopop are perhaps the only ones to have a better track record in recent years. Most international listeners will tell you exactly that. Benjwong (talk) 01:58, 13 September 2008 (UTC)