Talk:Capital punishment/Archive 1

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how does the usa justify having capital punisment?if you could answer this it would be very much appreciated thanks for your time

Who erased my views on death penalty?
Someone cowardly hidding behind a screen erased the views I posted here about the execution of a human being.. so called " capital punishment ", so I will post them again"

- After reading countless stories of people in death row who were exonerated after spending countless years in prison that never received compensation,,,why most of those people are never compensated for having their lives taken away from them for so much time???

-After reading the case from a man Nick Yarris exonerated long time ago, who had the courage and guts to proclaim his innocence... if this man was executed and then exonerated post mortem,,, should not the state be liable for his death??? how can prosecutors, pervert judges, sleep at night for 23 years while this man was rotting in death row for a crime he never commited,,, those people all should burn in the ninth hell of dante for eternity.

-After reading the case of a man named cantu, executed by the " mighty " state of texas and then even their own accusers recant their testimony,,, why does not the " mighty " state admit its fuck up and reviews its laws about death penalty.?

-Who the fuck is the US goverment and state governments to take on the role of God and decide who dies and who lives? by God's sake this is not babylon or some ancient culture and the meaning of civilization has evolved for over 5000 years to come to the conclusion that killing a human being is not the best way to solve a crime,,,,

- Eventhought more than 200 inmates have been exonerated since the introduction of DNA testings, still prosecutors refuse to acknowledge the fuck up they made,,, and the states will only give the guy exonerated a bus ticket and $100 to start a new life,, like the state of florida does??? big damn deal they get after those years spend unjustly in prison.

-Just some personal view: If someday I become governor, I would personally order DNA tests an all the inmates on death row or on lenghty prison sentences on my state, even if some of that money has to come out from my own pocket... if the states can spend 1000 bucks on a hammer ,, might as well spend some of that money bringing justice to some potential innocent people... and If I was governor, I would apply some ancient justice like punishing the prosecutors and police who wrongfully prosecuted the person,, with one lash for each month that person spent in prison to feel how it is like to have the burden of a crime not committed in the first place..and I would do that on public view to let my state know that no PROSECUTOR OR COP has immunity when prosecuting a person...and I would make the exonerated person gives those lashes..a chance for all that hatred and resentment to come out of them by lashing the suited asses of some " law protectors " who have no more common sense than a 5 year old child when it comes to judging a person...a just and fair application for the Talmud's talion law.

This is a view posted by my right on the US constitution,, freedom of speech and thought, whoever erases or edits this post on any way shall be a son of a bitch and his whole family shall die of AIDS in the fifth hell,,, this page has enough space for anyone and everyone to post their view without deleting or editing this one...

"Those in favor of capital punishment most often build their views on a New Testament verse in which Christ allegedly advocates capital punishment for crimes against children."

Book and verse number, please?


 * "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. Matthew 18:6, also Mark 9:42, Luke 17:2 Rmhermen 23:47, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)

---

I may be mistaken, but I think the death penalty may still be on the books in Canada for military high treason, although it hasn't been invoked for a good long time. I'll try to verify that. -- Stephen Gilbert


 * It was abolished.
 * On 10 December, 1998, the last vestiges of the death penalty in Canada were abolished with the passage of legislation removing all references to capital punishment from the National Defence Act.
 * from http://www.amnesty.ca/deathpenalty/canada.htm
 * -user:Montrealais

What is used for lethal injections in capital punishment in the US ?

Check out this page: http://www.howstuffworks.com/lethal-injection4.htm. Several different drugs are administered for any given execution. BTW, Howstuffworks.com is an excellent site that everyone should take a look at. -- Stephen Gilbert - The evidence shows clearly that capital punishment INCREASES the rate of serious crime. This has been known for approximately 5000 years. It comes up every time a society bothers to keep acurate records of crime and punishment statistics, and also either abolishes or re-establishes the death penalty. Why this is controversial in the face of totally overwhelming evidence, i don't know, but it is :-( What should be the wikipedia policy about Neutral Point of View in the face of such insanity?


 * Please sign you posts and cite your references. it really undermines your position when you don't.
 * DavidR 19:13, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * To say that it's more important than ever, because obviously, very many perfectly well-educated, extremely intelligent people take various sides on this issue. Why should you pretend otherwise in an article that is supposed to represent what "is known or believed" on the issue? That would make the article straightforwardly inaccurate. I think your view is actually one step away from censorship. --LMS

Evidence of increse ? Where ? --Taw I've only heard about decrese and no-effect so far.
 * The murder rate allegedly increases when there is a death penalty because of the need to execute witnesses. I don't agree with the reasoning, I'm just explaining the reasoning that's usually given to assert the death penalty increases crime. Jtocci 06:46, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)
 * In U.S., states with higher crime rate tend to have death penalty. Therefore, some simpletons would argume that "The evidence shows clearly that capital punishment INCREASES the rate of serious crime."   The assertion is failing to make distinction between cause and effect.  Death Penalty is likely to be kept or be introduced in these states as a "response" to high crime rate as deterrence or retribution. If also fail to account various cause of crimes such as poverty, general quality of law enforcement and so on.  Statistic can show correlation not causation.  Therefore, the argument over whether the death penalty increase or decrease crime rate is waste of time.  FWBOarticle 15:52, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You can report in as much detail as you could possibly please about what various people believe. This means you can supply all the facts and arguments that lead you consider your position, whatever it is, to be so obviously correct. In the main article, to write from a neutral point of view, you do not need to use vague language. "Generally considered" is actually to be avoided precisely because it can be so easily abused by people with an agenda. Perhaps you haven't really practiced writing from the neutral point of view enough, so that you confuse it with simply bad, vague writing of the sort that can be found in textbooks and newspapers. --LMS

- What does "rating on the mob" mean? Disembowelling is a little precise, but not colloquial - the usual English term is "Drawing and quartering." And we've got to have "beheading," which is after all still practiced. (I just got a mention of Thomas More's head into his entry).

Which leads to another potential topic, the history of the guillotine. Why yes, I think that -- that must be morbid curiosity. :-) - "Rating on the mob" should probably be rendered "Ratting on the mob," and is a gratuitous attempt at humor in an otherwise (deadly!) serious article. Breaking the code of silence and reporting the activities of organized crime to law enforcement ooficials is a fairly sure way to end one's life. branteaton -- The article says:
 * The death penalty is a contentious political issue, particularly in democracies where it is retained. A majority of adults in the United States support its continuance, but a highly vocal, organised minority of people in that country do not.

That is disputed. From what I've heard (from anti-death penalty sources), the opinion of the American public on the death penalty depends on the question asked. If the question simply says "Do you support the death penalty?", the majority says "Yes"; but if you ask something like "Would you support abolishing the death penalty, if instead offenders were guaranteed life imprisonment without parole?", the majority (I'm told) swings the other way. Someone needs to add this, and preferably some real poll figures. (Not me though -- too busy.) -- SJK

What does this mean? Can a crime be "in danger"?


 * non-violent crimes, like drug and business related crimes, are endangered by capital punishment.

I can't tell if this is an argument in favor of capital punishment on the grounds that a would-be criminal, seeing the danger of being executed for these crimes, will feel deterred from victimizing others -- or it's an argument against capital punishment on the grounds that a criminal is wrongfully "put in danger" of execution for "not really hurting anyone". --Ed Poor

I'd like to dispute the italicised text below:


 * At least in the United States, poor people and those from ethnic minorities are more likely to be executed than whites convicted of similar crimes. Hence, its application is selective and unfair.  (Note: This argument has been refuted, so now it is more common for death penalty opponents to argue in terms of the victim's race - that those accused of killing whites are more likely to be executed than those accused of killing persons from minority ethnic groups.)


 * I very much doubt this argument has been refuted to the satisfaction of death penalty opponents. I do however accept that death penalty opponents claim that the race of the victim of a crime does affect the likelihood of a death sentence, and I'm going to edit on these lines.  The section concerned was merely putting the arguments of death penalty opponents, not evaluating them... --Robert Merkel


 * There must be some data on the race issue. Don't really know where to look though. jimfbleak 15:30 27 May 2003 (UTC)

I removed this line from the article as is not correct or complete: "Muslim countries which carry out the death penalty, in order of severity, Saudi Arabia (Shariah), Iraq (secular; mainly political prisoners), Iran (Shariah), Egypt (secular), Taliban Afghanistan (Shariah)."

A complete list could by constructed from the link to Use of death penalty worldwide, if it is desirable. Rmhermen 23:35 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I removed a confusing sentence. Execution of juveniles refers to their age at the time of the offence, not age at time of execution. Texas executed three juveniles (at time of offence) in 2002. jimfbleak 06:01 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Can someone cite the specific verse being referred to in the following sentence? "Those in favor of capital punishment most often build their views on a New Testament verse in which Christ allegedly advocates capital punishment for crimes against children." --Delirium 18:52, Jul 30, 2003 (UTC)


 * It is a nonsensical claim that grossly and I suspect deliberately misreading the text. Saying that it is better if someone had not been born is not the same as saying that they should be executed. It is really clutching at straws. FearÉIREANN 22:55, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * Nonetheless, I think a parenthetical verse citation should be put there, rather than the vague "a New Testament verse." I would've added it myself, but was unable to find it in a quick search.  Even if it's deliberately misread, it'd be helpful to know what the verse is, so I can look it up and see why people might misread it that way. --Delirium 22:59, Jul 30, 2003 (UTC)


 * I agree that a reference to the New Testament should be included, if such a verse exists.  I've never heard that Christ advocated the death sentence for those that kill children, and I've never heard any death penalty supporter use that as an argument for the DP.  So I don't think this statement should be in there unless a reference is given.


 * A NPOV would show both sides. In general, the NT talks about love and forgiveness.  But regarding the specific act of murder, it says "if any one slays with the sword, with a sword must he be slain." (Revelation 13-10).  There is not much specific guidance about the DP in the NT.


 * But the Old Testament says "He who kills a man shall be put to death." (Leviticus 24-17). This clear statement should be included in the Old Testament section to balance the existing anti DP POV.--Norm2 10:36, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

2 points
 * 1) the Old Testament also talks about it being an abomination to eat shellfish and chicken. Should that also be entered? I don't know a single christian who takes that seriously. Christians are rather picky as to which bits of the Bible they highlight and which bits the conveniently forget.
 * 2) Which bible do you use? The Roman Catholic bible? The anglican bible? The protestant bible? The Gideon bible? They all have different translations, all written in different forms of english. Catholics for example never use the King James bible which they view as being "in error". Protestants never ever use the Roman Catholic translation. High Church Anglicans use the RC one, Low Church the protestant one. Unless you are willing to use all translations quoted together, opting for one is POV-loaded and potentially offence to millions who would see your usage as endorsing one side's version over the other. FearÉIREANN 02:54, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)

BTW most readers in most parts of the world would see this article as giving too much credence to the DP, which has never been shown to make the slightest difference to crime; after all the whole basis on which people commit crime is the frequently ludicrous conviction that they can ensure that they are not caught. Deterence comes from convincing people that they will get caught, not convincing them about what would happen to them if they get caught when they are themselves convinced they know a way to avoid being caught. If the death penalty was a deterent, then the US states that practice it the most would have the lowest capital crime rate, the states that least practice it should have the highest crime rate. Statistics show that is not the case. Some of the states that have the highest use of the DP also have the highest rate of capital murder, which pretty much holes the whole argument about the value of the DP below the water line. Capital crimes are more linked to policing, decree of urbanisation, religious beliefs and availability of guns than availability or use of the DP. America's gun-nuts and their pre-occupation with owning weaponry is the single greatest contribution to capital crimes; that's why Britain and Ireland together (who have not executed anyone since the 1950s) have less capital murders in a year than some US cities have in two weeks. And why an ex-partner of mine was so astonished when he visited Ireland to see women walking home through city streets unmolested and a shooting when it occured making national news. In contrast Orange County where he is from has a fortnightly capital crime rate higher than Ireland in a year and why he got his first gun aged 11, whereas in Ireland 99% of people have never seen a real gun much less owned one and the police are unarmed, as indeed they are in the United Kingdom. FearÉIREANN 03:15, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)
 * Your stats are a little outdated. UK cops carry guns nowadays and violent crime is through the roof. Many have posited that it is because of gun confiscation that things have changed so very much in so short a time, but even if you reject that, things have changed just the same. Jtocci 06:37, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * Yesterday I asked User:Jtocci at User talk:Jtocci for a Bible reference. I think he is the user that put in the sentence in question where Jesus allegedly advocates capital punishment for crimes against children...Norm2 05:56, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)
 * It is a famous verse and you'll hear it if you listen to debates on the subject (or go to church). Christ says approximately, depending on translation, that it would be better for one to have a millstone cast about his neck and thrown into the sea than lead a little one astray. I won't bother finding the actual text nor elaborating on how you set up the argument so that it is persuasive since it would appear there are several people ready to pounce and I've already been misquoted by Norm2. Good luck guys. Jtocci 06:37, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * 1) Outside Northern Ireland the majority of UK cops do not carry guns, although notable excepitons exist such as in airports and use of ocncealed weaponary in certain areas.
 * 2) The collection of data on crime is not consistent between different countries, although it is noted that the recent increased drink binges as a leisure activity has contributed to the number of arrrests for violence.
 * 3) The ownership of guns in isolation cannot be shown to increase the incidences of violence Switzerland is often used as an example where guns are ubiquitous but violent crime is not. It must be therefore a combination of gune ownership with various cultural or socio-economic factors that are to blame for the level of gun crime in the US.  IMO The National Rifle association would find it in their favour in the long run to focus on what needs to be done woth the latter to ensure wider gun ownership can continue without what is causing the problems rather than ranting on about constitutional rights without addressing the repsonsibilities that such rights carry Dainamo 17:38, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Does there really have to be a link to "Geonosian style execution"? It seems like it would be pretty easy to come up with a load of fictional execution styles....that don't have any place in a serious article. Sdw25 10:48, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The article lists "it deters crime" as a common argument for capital punishment. I don't believe I've ever heard anyone argue that, and I'm wondering how it got into this article. -Branddobbe


 * Because it is a common argument. I call your attention to, say, the entire body of American political discourse on the subject over the last century. Salsa Shark 21:46, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Christianity and the Death Penalty
The section on Christianity and the death penalty contains a serious error that will lead to a fundamental misunderstanding of Christianity and the death penalty in the United States. The error renders the entire article misleading.

The error is the statement rthat the majority of American churches support the death penalty. In fact, the majority of American churches have passed statements calling for the abolition of capital punishment since the 1950s and early 1960s. The Methodists called for abolition in 1956.

I tried to make this correction but my correction was removed.

Here is an incomplete list of those American church bodies which have passed policy statements against the death penalty.

American Baptist Churches in the U.S.A American Friends Service Committee American Jewish Committee Christian Church Christian Reformed Church in North America Church of Brethern The Episcopal Church General Conference Mennonite Church Friends United Meeting Evangelical Luthern Church in America The Moravian Church National Council of the Churches of Christ in the U.S.A Presbyterian Church Reformed Church in America State Baptist Convention of North Carolina Unitarian Universalist Association United Church of Christ United Methodist Church U.S Catholic Conference

For the texts of these statements visit: http://www.pfadp.org/peopleoffaith/locally.html

For a thorough discussion of the development of Christian thought on the death penalty read James Megivern's "The Death Penalty: An Historical and Theological Survey" (Paulist Press, 1997), probably the largest and most expansive English-language text on the topic.

(Stephen Dear, executive director, People of Faith Against the Death Penalty)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:17, 2 May 2016 (UTC)