Talk:Capital punishment in North Korea

Unhasu Orchestra
I have deleted the reference to the execution of musicians, as the story is discredited now that Hyon Song-wol has appeared alive.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:42, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Reliability
If it is true that "Current working knowledge of the topic depends heavily on the accounts of defectors", then there should be some caution in the presentation of facts. Some of the stories have proved false, such as the execution of musicians. If there are widespread public executions, it should be possible to find confirmation for this in the official North Korean media. The differing accounts of the Suncheon Stadium execution don't give much confidence.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:41, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I disagree with the overall assertion that the topic is presented unreliably. The United Nations' Human Right Council has recently published a very authoritative report: Report of the detailed findings of the commission of inquiry on human rights in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. The Commission of Inquiry investigated through the interviews of about 300 witnesses, each account being verified through other independent sources. This was a very serious and in-depth investigation, and there is little doubt left that North Korea carries executions that violate human rights. Therefore, I do not think that the overall credibility of the article should be disputed. If instead you would like to dispute a particular account, we can talk about that. (talk) Al83tito 19:02, 04 Sep 2015 (UTC)
 * BTW, I have added a citation to that source, in the article, to improve its reliability. (talk) Al83tito  19:06, 04 Sep 2015 (UTC)
 * And the star witness of the inquiry, Shin Dong-hyuk, has admitted to lying in his evidence. The inquiry did not have the process of verification that you describe. In any case, I was talking about media reports, and gave some specific examples. This article shouldn't include sketchy, sensationalist reports. The "overall credibility of the article" is based on its contents.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:08, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Considering that Shin Dong-hyuk was one among 300 witnesses, calling him THE star of the inquiry, is an overstatement. On the other hand, he was a prominent defector.
 * However, consider the NYT article published way before Shin's lies were discovered: In 2013 The New York Times had noted that Shin's accounts were "dramatic, but not particularly new; over the years, defectors from North Korea, including a handful of survivors of its prison camps like Mr. Shin, have told similar stories".
 * It is true that the commission was not able to find out he was lying, but one mistake in an investigation cannot render the whole investigation without value, especially given the extensive work that it did. BTW, the report notes that NK exerts heavy control in the flow of information. It has TV channels only broadcasted internally, and another channel broadcasts for foreign audiences. I believe the NK media does not publish much about executions, especially for those of average citizens. So it would be hard to find that kind of confirmation of executions, even if those were carried in public. In any case, I do agree that the article needs improvement, and some more citations. And if you have a specific story that you doubt or feel it is poorly framed or sources, then I suggest as a better course of action that rather than doubt the whole article, that you indicate which specific one. (talk) Al83tito  22:30, 04 Sep 2015 (UTC)
 * So the government has executions in front of thousands of people, but avoids publicising them? That's contradictory. And it's not possible for the government to stop outsiders intercepting their TV broadcasts. If you want me to specify stories that have problems, just look at my original comments. The musicians story is discredited. The Suncheon Stadium story is inconsistent. Yes, cite the inquiry. Yes, say that there are reports of public executions in stadiums, etc. But I don't think rumours belong in an encyclopedia. Particularly, not patchy rumours. Particularly, when in the case of North Korea, as soon as one story is discredited, another one pops up.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:24, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There's obviously a major discrepancy between 1,193 executions a year and 60.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:46, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I've removed the tag, which appears to be in the article because a single user wants it.Adoring nanny (talk) 14:27, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Another example from the UN Commission. The report says: "The Commission received reports about a series of public executions conducted in August, October and November 2013 in various locations across the country. Many of the victims were reportedly executed for having been involved in the distribution of foreign movies and pornographic material. Most of the reported executions occurred after unconfirmed rumours were widely published in international media, which sought to link Kim Jong-un’s wife Ri Sol-ju to a pornography-related scandal." (p 266). This seems to refer to the execution of Hyon Song-wol for making a pornographic video, or because of the jealousy of Ri. However, unfortunately, enough the woman has the impudence to be still alive. Where do the rumours end and the enquiries begin?--Jack Upland (talk) 08:39, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Hey, I see that in May you added a new Template:Disputed tag to this article. In general I grant you that given the eccentricity and secrecy of the regime, it is easy for outsiders to concoct false stories or distort true ones about NK that may be readily believed by some. However, there are credible, reputable (although of course not infallible) sources that do speak to how executions are conducted in North Korea. At first glance at the article, I see 18 well-cited sources, with numerous in-line citations in each paragraph. There is not one single assertion that is not backed up by a citation. Moreover, I see that sources include the UN Human Rights Council, The Guardian, the Database Center for North Korean Human Rights, Foreign Policy, Washington Post, and Amnesty International.

Could you please elaborate, and point to specific flaws in the article? If I understood correctly, in priors entries in this thread you mentioned that assertions claimed in this article should have confirmation from the North Korean media. I differ in the assertion that human rights abuses need to be confirmed by the state media of the regime being accused of them. You also mentioned that you doubt on the validity of the UN report. This wikipedia article is careful to often explicitly attribute who published which news, so that it is not just stating a bare fact, but rather the more complete fact that X outlet reported Y news.

Rather than asserting what is and what is not true, could you point to reputable sources that back for support your point? I find that the essay Verifiability, not truth, even if just an essay (not a guideline or policy), is very sensible in its advice: "Any material added to Wikipedia must have been published previously by a reliable source. Editors may not add content solely because they believe it is true, nor delete content they believe to be untrue, unless they have verified beforehand with a reliable source."

By the way, as I was saying early on, I do agree that not all news on NK are true. I think that listing within this article (or others) what high-profile reports were then proven to be mistaken, is worthy of inclusion in a section of its own. So if you could provide sources, please go ahead and share them. Also feel free to also edit the article to show the instances that reports were wrong. Let me ping as he is also a regular contributor to NK articles, including this one, I'd like to hear his opinion. Thank you.(talk) user:Al83tito 06:30, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

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Legal?
The article starts:
 * Capital punishment is a legal and often-used form of punishment in North Korea for many offences...

But if people are being killed for possessing Bibles, this isn't legal, and nothing in the UN report says it is. This is a contradictory way to start.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:18, 16 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I know that this is a very long overdue comment, and you will never see this, but the article is referring to the its legal status within the nation itself not within international law standards. ParticlePhysicsRules (talk) 04:50, 18 May 2022 (UTC)


 * That's not what I meant.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:00, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

RFA as a source
How is the US Government owned and controlled propaganda outlet “Radio Free Asia” a reliable source? Every single entry that only uses RFA as a source should be removed; most of their claims are completely made up.

North Korea is not some dystopian society where you will be executed by artillery gun for watching south Korean movies. These lies have no place on Wikipedia. Tankpiggy18 (talk) 05:31, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

This is list of "reported executions", it doesn't say they really happened, just that some source reported it. North Korea doesn't publish public list of executions it made, so we don't have much alternative. Borysk5 (talk) 07:35, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

2023 cleanup
The tag on the top of this page still applies. Much of the sourcing in this article relies on unverified anonymous reports, particularly in the list and prose of executions. I added a qualifier about Radio Free Asia in the lead based on a RSN discussion about RFA. It is my contention that reports sourced from the JoongAng and Chosun newspapers should be considered generally unreliable as they are conservative South Korean newspapers with a long history of a hardline stance against the North. I realize that coming by completely accurate, reliable sourcing on this matter is difficult, but by the same token this should not be a hosting page for unverified defector stories which are often of dubious veracity because defectors are frequently paid for their interviews.Etzedek24 (I'll talk at ya) (Check my track record) 19:25, 3 August 2023 (UTC)