Talk:Captain (ice hockey)

The proper term is alternate.
From the NHL Rule book (Bolds are my own)

"Rule 14 Captain of Team

(a) One Captain shall be appointed by each Team, and he alone shall have the privilege of discussing with the Referee any questions relating to interpretation of rules which may arise during the progress of a game. He shall wear the letter "C", approximately three inches (3'') in height and in contrasting color, in a conspicuous position on the front of his sweater.

In addition, if the permanent Captain is not on the ice, Alternate Captains (not more than two) shall be accorded the privileges of the Captain. Alternate Captains shall wear the letter "A" approximately three inches (3'') in height and in contrasting color, in a conspicuous position on the front of their sweaters.

(NOTE) Only when the captain is not in uniform, the '''Coach shall have the right to designate three Alternate Captains. This must be done prior to the start of the game.'''

(b) The Referee and Official Scorer shall be advised prior to the start of each game, the name of the Captain and the Alternate Captains of both Teams.

(c) Only the Captain, when invited to do so by the Referee, shall have the privilege of discussing any point relating to the interpretation of rules. Any Captain or player who comes off the bench and makes any protest or intervention with the Officials for any purpose shall be assessed a minor penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct under Rule 41(b) - Abuse of Officials. Should this protest continue, he may be assessed a misconduct penalty, and if it further continues, a game misconduct penalty shall be warranted.

A complaint about a penalty is NOT a matter "relating to the interpretation of the rules" and a minor penalty shall be imposed against any Captain or other player making such a complaint.

(d) No playing Coach or playing Manager or goalkeeper shall be permitted to act as Captain or Alternate Captain."

Now, also working with common sense, an ice hockey captain does not need an "assistant". One does need an "alternate" when they are not available. Unless you have any evidence to assure your point, please stop changing "alternate" to "assistant".Habsfannova 23:26, 12 September 2005 (UTC)


 * And the proper name for the state is "Rhode Island and Providence Plantations," while the name of the city is really "El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles de la Porciúncula," not "Los Angeles." It still doesn't mean people won't call you a cranky pedant for insisting on the accurate and correct terms.  As it happens, "assistant captain" is common and general usage.  Common sense is irrelevant.  Ravenswing 06:06, September 13, 2005 (UTC)


 * If "assistant captain" is common usage, as it does seem from a couple of Google searches, then that is a fact worthy of noting in the article, so I'm putting it in. -- Jao 10:09, 13 September 2005 (UTC)


 * RG, I don't think geographical names, which do change with times, are really relavent either. While I'm not opposed to using the term "assistant" in the article (I admit, I should have put that in there as well, my bad), I was opposed to simply replacing "alternate" with "assistant" without any grounds showing so.  This is an encyclopedia, and we should use the proper terms when necessary.  I also apologize if I came accross as haughty.Habsfannova 15:46, 13 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Curious Reader: If the rules say Alternate, so be it. Say Habsfannova/Ravenswing ,did you guys happen to notice that (correct me if I'm wrong) from the 1975-76 to the 1984-85 Nhl season, the teams did't have alternate captains (Nobody wore 'A's) they had Just The Captain. If you have notice this (in old NHL team photos & games), is there a reason for it having occured? 23 October 2005.


 * Talk about missing something. If anyone still cares about the answer, it's simple: between those seasons, the league abolished alternate captains.  When they reinstated them, they allowed only two per team rather than the previous three.  Ravenswing 03:52, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

==Help Please== Does anyone know for certain if Bryan Trottier ,was the Captain of team Canada in the 1981 Canada Cup? If not Trottier, then who? Mightberight/wrong 17:50, 31 October 2005. :I've watched (December 2nd, 2005) a program about the history, USSR vs Canada (1972 summit series, and the 1976,'81,'84 and '87 Canada Cups all on the NHL network. I've discoverd that, the 1981 Canada Cup Team Canada captain was: Denis Potvin. GoodDay 19:45, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Buffalo
How can Buffalo have two captains? Bayerischermann 23:01, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Lots of teams in hockey have co-captains, and handle it in different ways. Some have one guy for home and the other for away games (this is how I remember Boston doing Middleton and Bourque as co-captains for a couple years), others trade half-seasons, others do alternate games.  Ravenswing 03:54, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Some teams in the past, have used tri-captains (3 captains). The Calgary Flames used this method 1984-87 (See Calgary Flames captains) & the Vancouver Canucks 1990-91 (See Vancouver Canucks captains). GoodDay 17:27, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

A Request
To the users, who continue to put the names of players they believe will be or should be captains, please stop it. The section 'Current captains' is just that current captains, alternate captains and/or non letter players don't belong. GoodDay 22:36, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Goalie As Captain
Could some information be added as to why goalies cannot be captains? Twice it mentions that they cannot be yet does not mention why.--68.45.76.174 01:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Because NHL rules forbid it; it isn't any more complex than that. Ravenswing 05:35, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Lot's of the time in NHL 2004 and NHL 2005, if you traded away a player with a letter, the it would automatically go to the goalie. A glitch, but funny! FogDevil 22:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

What about Stevie Y?
I don't know how to insert photos on articles. If I could, I'd put Steve Yzerman's photo instead of Gretzky's. Stevie holds the record for longest serving captain. Stevie would be more appropiate, also (I know this is POV of me), there's more then enough Wayne Gretzky photos throughout the different NHL articles. GoodDay 18:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * In all fairness, Gretzky is hockey's most recognizable star. That being said, you do have a valid point, and I certainly wouldn't argue either way.  If you can find a usable picture of Stevie Y holding the Stanley Cup, that would be perfect.  Doogie2K (talk) 19:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

OHL?
Why does this article feature a list of the OHL captains? Why not a link to the list? It seems very arbitrary that the OHL should have it's list be featured, and not that of the WHL, AHL, QMJHL, etc. I suggest this list be removed, or linked. Sven Erixon 18:44, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * If want, you can create a link to the OHL list, or you can add the AHL, WHL and QMJHL etc. What ever you see fit, you have as much right as anyother editor to make those changes. GoodDay 13:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Request - captains list
Looking for a list of captains over time for each NHL team. If possible please identify which have won stanley cups and link to the story of their teams cup runs.
 * See all 30 NHL team articles, each has a 'team captains' list. GoodDay 15:49, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion of performance/behaviour of captains
The second paragraph of the section, "Selection process", in its discussion of the performance and behaviour of captains, is mostly opinion and has no sources. Does this type of discussion belong in the article? Isaac Lin 06:01, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

NHL rules on number of alternate captains
The referenced NHL rulebook says that for any given game, there can only be one captain + up to two alternate captains, or up to three alternate captains if there is no captain. Have the rules changed, or is Pittsburgh rotating its three alternates per game amongst four players? Isaac Lin 19:40, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Up until John LeClair was sent down to the AHL (after clearing waivers), the Penguins rotated it's four alternate's on (I believe) a monthly bases. Now that Leclair is in the AHL, they reverted to 3- alternates. GoodDay 18:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Multiple Captains
Should we add a section explaining Rotating Captains & Co-Captains, Tri-Captains. This could help explain to unfamilliar viewers, why teams have OR had multiple players wearing the 'C' on the same team during the same season. Example Buffalo Sabres, San Jose Sharks in 2003-04, Detroit Red Wings in 1973-74 & Minnesota Wild since 2000. GoodDay 18:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I've added mention of Co-Captains & Tri-Captains. GoodDay 18:09, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Team captains
I've re-listed the team captains, on most of the 30 NHL team pages. I've listed by season NOT by players. Leave your opinon at Talk:Buffalo Sabres. I've posted here, as I'd figured it would be easier to reach many NHL Wikipedians, rather then posting seperately, on all 30 team pages. GoodDay 20:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Update, consensus was to list captains by player NOT by season. I've since made the edits called for by the consensus. GoodDay 06:14, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Four Alternates
If you can only have two alternates, how do many teams have four, as well as a captain? Examples (using the List of current NHL captains and alternate captains as reference) are Atlanta Thrashers, New Jersey Devils, and Washington Capitals. Do they rotate? If so, someone should make that clear on that article as it does say "(Rotating)" by Minnesota Wild already. Bsroiaadn 07:43, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The Devils & Thrashers named their alternates for the entire season. The Wild on a monthly basis. The Capitals? have only 2 alternate (Sutherby & Ovechkin) serving under their captain (Clark). GoodDay 22:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * See the line: Teams need not appoint the same players as alternate captains from game to game, thought they generally do. GoodDay 22:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

No captain
It was mentioned before (but was since removed), Teams don't need to appoint a captain. They can have alternate captains only. GoodDay 20:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That's still in the article in the alternate captains section. Croctotheface 20:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, as someone once told me read the article. GoodDay 20:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * In fact, they don't need to appoint any captains or alternates--but then they forfeit the right to discuss things with the officials.Djob (talk) 01:26, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Picture?
we should probably pick something other than the Flames, a team that already has a "c" on their jersy. People might think that the "c" replaces the team's emblem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.163.128.193 (talk) 18:56, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

No captains on ice
Is it a requirement for a team to have at least a captain on ice?202.180.98.76 05:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Nope. GoodDay 18:10, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
 * But if you don't have a lettered player on the ice, you can't send someone over to discuss things with a referee. If a player comes off the bench to talk to the referee, he cannot return to the bench before the next face-off or the team will get a bench minor for delay of game.Djob (talk) 01:30, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

European captain to win the Cup
Trying to avoid an edit war so I'll just say: We need references for it, NHL say Lidström's the first, challenging that means really good and reliable references. --Krm500 (talk) 03:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * That ref does not say that Lidström is the first European-born captain to win the cup. Saying that he's the first European captain to win the cup is fairly safe, but the fact that another Cup-winning captain was born in Europe is easily verifiable: confirms Gardiner's place of birth, and  confirms his captain status. -- Jao (talk) 10:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok, but my search indicated that there has been three European born captains to win the cup before Lidström. They should also be included, with refs. --Krm500 (talk) 14:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Image
I have nothing against Jarome Iginla or the Flames, but a Flames jersey is probably not the best to illustrate the concept... I'd change it, but I don't know whom to choose. If someone has a free image of Steve Yzerman's Red Wings captain jersey, that might be a good choice? After all, he is the one known as "the Captain". If we keep Iginla, we'd have to tweak the caption to remove any possible confusion. -- Jao (talk) 16:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yea I understand your concern, I'll see if I have any better images we could use. --Krm500 (talk) 22:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

question about refs
Re: this edit with WP:ES of "Records: These refs do NOT source these assertions. They either cite WP as a source or require OR to extract the content."

Please provide some additional information about the issues you have raised with the individual citations.


 * Crosby - while I agree that WP may not always be correct, if the starting date for the Pens season is incorrect, then it should be tagged over at 2007–08 Pittsburgh Penguins season.
 * Lecavalier - the game log in the ref was provided as evidence that he actually played in the game in question, which was the first after the team's announcement.
 * Yzerman - Game logs from 1986 are not available online. However, since the player played in every game of the schedule (per a cited source) and the date of the first game of the schedule is known (per a separate cited source), then it logically follows that the player's first game as captain was the first game of that schedule.

Though these references are not the smoking gun style which would have been obviously preferred "Player X's first game as captain of Team Y was Month Day, Year", it seems to me that having some kind of reference for these specific dates is preferable to having none at all. Especially when the question of "youngest captain" is a common one in light of Toews' announced captaincy. And from Google and Yahoo searches, the answers are all over the board. Having documentation here on WP improves both its content and credibility. &mdash; MrDolomite • Talk 14:13, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Saying that those sources establish that the players assumed the captaincy at those times begs the question. All of those sources purportedly establish that these players began their captaincies on those dates. All that the sources actually do is show that their teams began their seasons on those days and in some cases that the players in question played in those games.  So, basically, we are assuming the fact that we are purportedly sourcing: that these players all assumed the captaincy on the dates in question.  The only way it makes any kind of sense to say that the source establishes that the player was captain is if you assume he was captain to begin with.  It would be like saying that citing a player's birthday (and nothing else) proves he was the youngest captain when we don't even establish that he was captain in the first place.  Croctotheface (talk) 21:54, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree, but whatever. However, rather than leave completely unsourced information in a section of an article which is specifically about dates, I have tagged them individually as fact.  That way as specific references are found, the dates can be WP:CITEd and the article improved. &mdash; MrDolomite &bull; Talk 12:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Additional youngest captain reference
Found this Sports Illustrated article from 2000 which has additional info regarding the youngest captains. Not sure what/how much of it needs to be added to the article, but wanted to pass it along, especially as it has information from the 70s and 80s. &mdash; MrDolomite • Talk 23:27, 21 October 2008 (UTC) "Youth is serving - Tampa Bay's Lecavalier earns NHL record with captaincy", posted: Monday March 27, 2000 09:59 PM by Ryan Hunt, CNNSI.com at http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/statitudes/news/2000/03/23/lecavalier_youngcaptain/

Discussion of management selection of captains
Are the examples of management selections notable enough to be included, or do they unnecessarily elevate the importance of some particular captain selections? Isaac Lin (talk) 06:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Some captains are chosen by management, while others are chosen by player vote. GoodDay (talk) 15:37, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes -- but the question is if the specific examples given warrant inclusion. I am concerned it will lead to an endless list of examples. Any ideas on how to avoid this? Isaac Lin (talk) 15:40, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps they should be deleted, as I've noticed alot of citation tags on them. GoodDay (talk) 15:52, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Oops, you put those there. Perhaps you should wait for more opinons here, before you decide to delete info. GoodDay (talk) 16:04, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I have moved the specific examples to a footnote, as they clutter up the main text. All that is needed in this context is references to show that captains are sometimes selected by management. Details of specific incidents are best left in the players' pages. Isaac Lin (talk) 17:25, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I might consider a list instead, but a footnote is no longer necessary due to extra headers. GoldDragon (talk) 21:13, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't understand — what do you mean by "extra headers"? You have not addressed the issue of these examples being given undue importance for this article. There is really no dispute over the fact that captains have been appointed by management, and there are far too many examples to list them all within this article. Isaac Lin (talk) 03:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Remove this entirely. If you're going to provide examples of management selecting captain, why not also provide examples of the team voting, or the coach selecting? (Also, why is the Tortorella decision used as an example for management selecting the captain? Coaches are not part of management.) — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 07:47, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The teams do consider coaches part of management—note during the last lockout, coaches continued to be employed. (Either way, this does not alter any of the points being made in this discussion.) Isaac Lin (talk) 01:38, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Since sources are not necessary for statements that are generally accepted and not controversial, I suggest following the proposal to remove the examples of captains selected by management. I welcome any further discussion on this subject. Isaac Lin (talk) 01:38, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Jim Schoenfeld
Having some trouble reconciling dates for Jim Schoenfeld. From the ref I used, Gerry Meehan, the immediately previous catpain, was captain of the Buffalo Sabres until Oct. 14, 1974, though the other ref said September 1972. Still looking for more details. &mdash; MrDolomite • Talk 17:30, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Meehan was Sabres captain until 1974 (he was traded). GoodDay (talk) 15:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Goaltender captains
Given that other goaltenders have fulfilled the off-ice captain role without being given the title of captain by their teams, I propose making the following changes to clarify that there still has not been any new official NHL goaltender captains: Any feedback on this proposal? isaacl (talk) 04:12, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * In the section "Selection", remove the sentence starting with "Luongo was the first goaltender to serve as captain...", and alter the following sentence to start as follows: "Luongo has since been relieved of his off-ice captain duties..."
 * In the section "Goaltender captains", change the first sentence as follows: "In NHL history, there have been six goaltenders who served as official team captains:" Remove Luongo's name from the list.
 * Bobby Loo was named captain contrary to the NHL rules about goalie captains & alternate captains. I've no probs with your proposal. GoodDay (talk) 15:41, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If there are no further comments, I will implement the proposal. isaacl (talk) 01:53, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Former practices
I believe it may be placing undue emphasis on previous ways of designating a team captain to include the information on the former Soviet Union in the article lead. I think if it is deemed sufficiently notable, it would fit better in the section "Designation on uniform". What does everyone think about (a) the notability of recounting previous practices in this article (perhaps it would fit better in articles about the former teams/leagues), and (b) if deemed sufficiently notable, moving the information to the "Designation on uniform" section? isaacl (talk) 23:39, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Cross-sport information
Regarding this edit, I'm undecided on the notability of Messier being a captain for two championship teams belonging to different franchises. Can anyone provide citations of independent, non-promotional, and non-routine coverage from reliable sources that can establish the importance of this info? If it is notable, does it best belong in the Captain (sports) article rather than this one? isaacl (talk) 03:48, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

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