Talk:Captain America/Archive 3

Semi-protected edit request on 30 May 2016
69.218.76.144 (talk) 00:49, 30 May 2016 (UTC) signifigant other: Bucky Barnes, Iron Man
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 01:21, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Plus, it's vandalism. :) 73.168.15.161 (talk) 02:23, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Marvel cinematic universe
Shall we also add MCU versions in Captain America, Iron Man blah blah blah pages? Spinosaurus75 (Dinosaur Fan) (talk) 08:51, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Mentioned in Captain America in other media. DarkKnight2149 21:44, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Something missing
It would be in line with wikipedia standards to include a section on analysis of this, as well as any other, superhero character and the American self image they project. A quick search gave these among numerous others: http://journal.transformativeworks.org/index.php/twc/article/view/441/366 http://godawa.com/captain-america-civil-war-american-exceptionalism-corrupt-world/ http://www.americansc.org.uk/Online/Captain_America.htm 83.249.179.117 (talk) 12:56, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Retitle Page: Steve Rogers (comics)
Given that Captain America is a title, not a person, should this article not be renamed Steve Rogers (comics)
 * No. No, more than the Spider-Man article should be renamed "Peter Parker". Common name applies. Maybe a split could be done but I'm not sure of it.★Trekker (talk) 16:45, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

New Cat?
Category:National_personifications ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.226.49.232 (talk) 14:11, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Reception or Cultural impact section
I feel like it would be appropriate to add a reception or cultural impact section to the article.

This edit:


 * The character has been used for dog whistle politics by white nationalists in 2016.

by Kencf0618 is an intresting one worth noting but I feel like it does not fit into the lead section. The character has been around for over 75 years and I think there would be a lot to add in a new section.★Trekker (talk) 11:46, 26 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, I was thinking the same. Fortunately there's been more coverage of the matter, so I'll get to it. kencf0618 (talk) 21:45, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Kencf0618 Eh, the problem with the section that you made is that it still lends undue weight to something which is rather minor. It's a footnote in a section which should examine the character impact over several decades. To name the section "Contemporary political usage" is inappropriate also becuse "Contemporary" is something which will inevitably change. We should discuss this more and prepare a better section before adding it.★Trekker (talk) 22:13, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Kencf0618 Ok, again, please don't add something so potentially controversial to the article without us going through this with the project. The section as is is still not a "cultural impact" section, it's just about one trend which hardly deserves the most attention out of everything. ★Trekker (talk) 22:21, 26 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I do have to agree with ★Trekker, whom I had thanked for her edit and was planning on joining this discussion before I was asked. People have appropriated Captain America, Superman, Calvin and Hobbes and countless other characters in countless ways. I'd have to agree that minor misuse of copyrighted characters is trivial; if it ever gets to the point of Marvel issuing cease-and-desist letters for major misuse, I think that would be worth a sentence. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:29, 26 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I strongly and respectfully disagree. The fact that a major comic book character invented by two Jews has been co-opted by early 21st-century neo-Nazis (or white supremacists, or the alt-right, or whatever the branding is) is no minor matter, and deserves incorporation in the article. Furthermore, it is well cited. And the image is gigantic enough so people can read the text. Shall we swing this by the Comics Project in some formal manner...? kencf0618 (talk) 22:40, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I have already notified the project. Co-opting is seriously strong language in this case, truth is that pretty much all old comic book characters were created by jewish people, and while they were often the victim of nationalism at that time they are not the focus of white-power groups today and this is minor and incidental, again we're not sayin that it souldn't be mentioned just that it's hardly deserving of it's own section.★Trekker (talk) 22:57, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The co-optation is both a factual and a serious matter inasmuch as it is an injection of 20th-century pop culture into early 21st-century radical political discourse. kencf0618 (talk) 23:51, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but the "seriousness" is totally your own opinion. As far as I can neither Marvel or it's parent company Disney has reacted to it. I understand that you don't like it, neither do I, but that doesn't mean it's very notable. It happens all the time, I think the character Nick Fury was used by some gay political faction a while ago, it's not that big of a deal.★Trekker (talk) 00:01, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The coverage by the Idaho Statesman today indicates otherwise. kencf0618 (talk) 00:11, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Do you have a link. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:13, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It indicates nothing except that someone took notice that they used a Cap picture, he is mentioned ONCE in the article I found.★Trekker (talk) 00:15, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Which is sufficient attribution, given the context. kencf0618 (talk) 00:55, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Not really. I don't see how it warrants more than a mention. There's not really anything more to note.★Trekker (talk) 01:03, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Mention away. Wikipedia is citation driven. http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/education/boise-state-university/article128742204.html kencf0618 (talk) 01:08, 27 January 2017 (UTC)Kencf0618
 * I've already seen that. When you added it to the article earlier. This entire discussion was about how we should develop a section for the cultural impact. It will be mentioned as soon as we have collected some more material.★Trekker (talk) 01:12, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Apparently after sleeping through the Vietnam War Captain America has appeared at protests in Brazil and Hong Kong: http://www.dailydot.com/layer8/captain-america-hong-kong-occupy-central/ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/16/brazil-protests-dilma-rousseff kencf0618 (talk) 14:22, 28 January 2017 (UTC)


 * While the dog-whistle thing is only a footnote in the history of Cap's legacy, I do think a proper Reception section should include times when he and his symbol have been appropriated or criticized by political groups. He's a copyrighted fictional character, but he's also be a symbol of America since he punched Hitler in the face.
 * There was an issue eight years or so ago that included a scene of protestors using signs with slogans taken from Tea Party rallies, and the fictional protestors were portrayed in a very negative light. It caused quite a stir in reputable newspapers, and the writer (Brubaker, I think) apologized for it and claimed the slogans weren't from his script. Argento Surfer (talk) 15:31, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The "Captain America complex" from the 1970s, which is the subject of this book, might reasonably be mentioned here as well. John Carter (talk) 22:33, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

"The fact that a major comic book character invented by two Jews has been co-opted by early 21st-century neo-Nazis"

Well, the superhero in question in white, blond, and blue-eyed. Quite reminiscent of how the Nazis imagined the Aryan race. See the following source on how Captain America represents the "Aryan ideal". https://books.google.gr/books?id=gQD0WX6czQAC&pg=PA66&dq=Captain+America+Aryan&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Captain%20America%20Aryan&f=false

Captain America is also regularly depicted as an All-American hero, whose job is to face whoever threatens America (Nazis, communists, terrorists, etc). I could see the appeal to Nativist elements of American society.

As a child, I found Cap to be a disturbing depiction of nationalism, not patriotism. A "hero" dressed in a flag, like a cheap politician. And a willing volunteer for human experimentation, who blindly serves his government. I am Greek, and these elements tend to remind me of the "patriotic" speeches of figures of the Greek military junta of 1967–74, whose self-described mission was to save the nation from itself. Dimadick (talk) 21:50, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * While that's how you personally feel, that not much like what the character has been written like since the 50s, at that time he was a communists hater, which has later been retconed as not being the same person. Everyone here needs to put away their own personal feelings about nationalism and focus on the article and what it should include. The reference you have is great.★Trekker (talk) 22:13, 27 January 2017 (UTC)


 * "pretty much all old comic book characters were created by jewish people"
 * Would you mind rephrasing that? It sounds like an argument that "Literature by Jewish authors, regardless of the field" is Un-German, one of the justifications for the Nazi book burnings.
 * While people of Jewish descent were indeed prominent in the American comic book industry of the 1940s and 1950s, not all writers or artists were Jewish. Gardner Fox was not Jewish, Carmine Infantino was Italian-American, Steve Ditko is Slovak-American, Bill Everett was from a prominent British-American family, we know little about the ancestry of William Moulton Marston, Otto Binder was Austrian-American, John Romita Sr. is Italian-American, etc. They were not a homogeneous group. Dimadick (talk) 22:37, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not going to rephrase that, nothing that I said had anything to do with Germany. I'm not a fan of rewriting what I've stated. My point was only that this use of Captain America is nothing really special politically. Ofcourse I know that not every comics writer back in the day was jewish, that'd be ridiculous. I don't mean to diminish any non-jewish writers of the time, I was just exaggerating a bit to emphasise that the idea that the Captain America situation is far from unique. I probably should have known that a joking tone in my head wouldn't translate into wikipedia script but well well, done is done.★Trekker (talk) 00:36, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
 * As stated above, the "Captain America complex" written about in the seventies seems to me to maybe merit specific mention in the article, as well as, perhaps, discussion of whichever person other than Rogers who claimed to be Cap and more or less showed those tendencies. I think that character was allegedly killed in that era, or sometime thereafter? If so, that might be seen as a form of repudiation of the idea, and might merit specific mention on that basis. John Carter (talk) 22:36, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I've read and re-read this thread, and from everything I'm seeing, any such section is going to be cherrypicked WP:SYNTH. As well, any section purporting to cover Captain America's cultural reception would be leaning to undue weight unless it also includes material covering both the traditionally patriotic uses of the character and the commercial uses of the character. And as it stands so far, one or two isolated instances of alt-right co-opting is, as other editors have noted, hardly notable. --Tenebrae (talk) 02:14, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * If a cultural impact section were to be based exclusively on the material so far presented, I would agree with you. I would also agree with you regarding the patriotic usages of not only this character, but the other overtly patriotic heroes in comics. I personally don't know the level of sourcing or notability on such patriotic heroes, but as per List of United States-themed superheroes there certainly seem to be a rather large number of them, and on that basis I think it might be reasonable to think that there might be sufficient notability and material for an article on such overtly patriotic heroes, and I guess I might include Captain Britain (maybe) and maybe a few others as non-US examples of the same phenomenon. John Carter (talk) 01:15, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * There have been several books about comic propaganda. I haven't read them (yet), but I'm sure they cover the use of individual characters like Cap. We even have United States propaganda comics. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:33, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * And we could always contact WP:MILHIST. I imagine given Cap's prominence as a World War II poster-boy, they might have some additional sources relating to his use in WWII, and maybe Korea, Vietnam, and other conflicts as well. John Carter (talk) 14:07, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
 * P.S. As per a current discussion at the comics project talk page on a broadly similar area, I think maybe the time might have come to develop some sort of broad guidelines for those characters who are in effect popular icons and whose impact and reliably sourced material sometimes crosses well beyond the comics themselves. John Carter (talk) 14:34, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2017
He actually did kill him (Red Skull) as of #15 & took over the position of HYDRA, once the mutants removed Xavier's brain from Skull. Crossbones & Sin betrays Skull in exchange for their loyalty to Cap. 139.193.136.119 (talk) 02:37, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.
 * Padlock-silver-open.svg Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. —  IVORK  Discuss 04:40, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 June 2018
I would like to request the "Alter Ego" be changed to "Full Name" seeing how "Captain America" is technically his alter ego. 69.144.236.131 (talk) 15:53, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: The fields are part of a standard template. Also, per the sources provided in the article, Steve Rogers and Captain America are alter ego for the same person. There is nothing wrong in this regard. &mdash;  LeoFrank   Talk 18:34, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

South America – not America?
South America – not America?

Captain partially North America, Captain not South America. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.174.114.49 (talk) 13:42, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2019
Captain America was born in 1917, not 1920 169.252.4.22 (talk) 18:39, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * This can't be changed unless you provide a reliable source to support your claim. Argento Surfer (talk) 19:51, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 May 2019
add /Steve Rogers next to Captain America(in the beginning) Baws465 (talk) 22:03, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Steve Rogers is mentioned in the second paragraph (bolded), which should be enough, and also gives context for the name. – Þjarkur (talk) 22:16, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:14, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Speech balloon.svg

File:Captain America (Steve Roger circa 1968).png
Hi, I uploaded this image (File:Captain America (Steve Roger circa 1968).png) and think this could be a good Infobox image.--NeoBatfreak (talk) 02:10, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

File:No List of Captain America supporting characters
Hey, I just noticed that no one has done a list for supporting characters of Captain America. There's lists for Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, Spider-Man, Superman, and Batman-- Captain America would not have gotten far in World War II without the Invaders, and he never would have been a member of the Avengers had Hulk stayed with the team, then they never would have found him in ice. Please, make a list of supporting characters.IronKnight374 (talk) 06:57, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

No more Black Widow and Iron Man.
Kinsley Bottom can't stop adding Black Widow and Iron Man in Captain America's partners. Tecnically, this is a Wikipedia page starring comic book Cap, not MCU Cap. In comics, Black Widow is more related to Hawkeye or Bucky Barnes. Iron Man is a friend from work, just like Thor, Giant-Man, Hawkeye or the Scarlet Witch. Johnf69 (talk) 06:49, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you have sources supporting your cases. You have made edits before that have been reverted because they weren’t referenced in the article. Unless, you can prove the characters you’re are more notable than Iron Man and Widow. Leave has it was before. Kinsley Bottom (talk) 08:27, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Neither of you seem to realized the infobox is meant to be a summary of the article. Iron Man is mentioned in the main biography section only six times: all in one subsection, four times in one paragraph, and most should be removed as undue recentism. D-Man isn't mentioned at all. I recommend you improve the article (which doesn't just mean expand it) before trying to expand the infobox. Argento Surfer (talk) 10:48, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Nomad, as well as D-Man, has been a legendary sidekick of Cap during Mark Gruenwald's run. Black Widow and most importantly Iron Man are part of the Avengers, so it's irrilevant adding them in that infobox. If we count them as partners, then we can also add Hawkeye, Ant-Man, Wasp, Thor, Scarlet Witch and so on. I honestly don't know how to use Wikipedia properly, but that's for sure that adding Iron Man and Black Widow in Cap's comic book history is a big mistake. MCU Cap already has his own Wikipedia... let's add them there Johnf69 (talk) 11:05, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Anyway, as you all can see, Black Widow never gets mentioned during the article. She's not very important to Cap's history, not just like Nomad, D-Man and Agent 13. Johnf69 (talk) 11:10, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Exactly you don’t know. Find sources. There’s comic history of Cap and Widow, teaming up together. Not just in the Avengers. There team ups have to be notable. You should be very careful the next you edit. Kinsley Bottom (talk) 16:35, 17 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but you're totally wrong. Cap also had several team-ups with Spider-Man, but that doesn't mean Spidey is an iconic partner of Steve Rogers. And, anyway, as Argento Sufer previously told us, the infobox is meant to be a summary of the article. Black Widow never gets mentioned in the main biography section... that's because she's not important for COMIC BOOK Cap. That's it. Johnf69 (talk) 17:01, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * There team ups have to be notable. No, they don't. If they are, they should be noted in the article. They aren't. Since they aren't, they should not be listed in the infobox, which is supposed to be a summary of the article.
 * Find sources. It is the responsibility of the editor trying to add material to source it. It is unfair to ask an editor removing it to prove sources aren't available. Argento Surfer (talk) 17:07, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for that! So you think we should keep only Bucky Barnes, Falcon and Sharon Carter? Johnf69 (talk) 17:30, 17 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Yes. And you both should find consensus on the talk page rather than edit warring, which will get you both blocked. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:40, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Alright. I'm really sorry for that! Johnf69 (talk) 17:43, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

It will never happen again! Johnf69 (talk) 17:44, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Here’s my sources: Cap and Iron Man’s relationship from the official marvel website: https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/4-iconic-captain-america-and-iron-man-moments per paste magazine: https://www.pastemagazine.com/comics/captain-america/frenemies-in-arms-the-best-captain-america-and-iro/
 * then Cap and Widow: Captain America and Black Widow Vol 1, The SOLDIER and The SPY, a (ROMANOGERS) love story (they’re in a relationship in this one), more in depth here (https://www.cbr.com/avengers-black-widow-captain-america-near-miss-romance/), Uncanny X-Men Vol 1 268, Captain America: Triple Threat (2014), and that’s not even including when they’re all in the avengers. I found mine. Kinsley Bottom (talk) 20:05, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Cap also shared a miniseries like "Captain America and Black Widow" with Hawkeye... that means nothing. And, as previously told, Natasha never gets mentioned in the article, so we can't add her in the infobox. Regarding Iron Man, do you think we should add him only because Marvel.com and PastedMagazine talked about their relationship and their best moments? Trust me, you can find articles like that about every single character in Marvel (and DC) history... that doesn't mean Iron Man needs to be in Cap's partners infobox Johnf69 (talk) 06:36, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Fun fact: every single comic book you mentioned (excluding Uncanny X-Men Vol 1 268, but that issue mainly stars Wolverine) came out only AFTER the MCU movies. Sharon Carter, Bucky Barnes and Falcon have always been important to Steve Rogers, unlike Black Widow and Iron Man Johnf69 (talk) 06:43, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes they have. Some came out before MCU, and during. You have a bias with my selection because they’re not yours. The fact you never provided anything shows you were adding them just because. They’re relationships are notable and if you don’t know, then that’s on you. Kinsley Bottom (talk) 16:39, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

"You have a bias with my selection because they’re not yours"

Can't believe you said that. I'm not twelve. By the way, at the end I didn't added Nomad or D-Man, I only demonstrated why you're wrong. And I'm okay with that. Your proofs are completely weak. I think you're only an Iron Man / Black Widow fan that has nothing better to do, and you should read more comics. They're great, and they dimonstrate why Iron Man and Black Widow will never be like Sharon, Bucky and Sam for Steve. I suggest you to read comics that came out from 40s to 00s, especially the stories written by Kirby, Englehart, Stern, DeMatteis and Gruenwald... five legendary authors who never gave a prominent role to Iron Man and mostly to Black Widow.

Thanks for anything and goodbye :) Johnf69 (talk) 05:51, 19 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Strongly suggest all editors read Argento Surfer's contribution above - and actually heed it. Improve the article, then the infobox. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 18:15, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2021
Please add how he died 26chandler (talk) 21:34, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 June 2022
Remove the red link of alternate future of the Ultimate Universe and also remove the generic name of reference 13!2804:7F2:5A6:5749:85F3:C4FF:18CE:D188 (talk) 19:12, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ Argento Surfer (talk) 19:44, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Cap’s partners
Ziggy Coltrane is starting an edit warring again, adding Black Widow and Iron Man as Captain America’s partners. They’re not. Black Widow could be considered Bucky’s partner, but not Steve’s.

Iron Man is an Avenger. If we add him, we could also add Thor, Hank Pym, Wasp, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver… that doesn’t make any sense. Johnf69 (talk) 17:46, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Again, I refer both and  to this archived talk page section and especially urge ye to take heed of 's comment there, and my own comment. Further, would a sock report be useful here, Ziggy? Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 11:08, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

"Steve Rogers (Marvel Comics)" listed at Redirects for discussion
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