Talk:Captain Beefheart/Archive 2

Critically acclaimed
Wasn't Decals critically acclaimed? It was always my favourite, but the first one I remember seeing reviewed was Spotlight Kid ('Captain Beefheart makes hits' in Rolling Stone, I think by an ironic Lester Bangs). Rothorpe (talk) 22:50, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Decals was one of his most critically acclaimed albums, but not on the same level as Trout Mask Replica and Safe as Milk. I suppose we could re-add it. Sir Richardson (talk) 22:52, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I think so. Another, much more recent, journalist (80s/90s?) rated it above TMR... Rothorpe (talk) 22:57, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

There we go, then. Sir Richardson (talk) 23:00, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Ta! Rothorpe (talk) 23:02, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

The sculptor
The source mentions 'Augustino Rodriquez, the famous Portugese [sic] sculptor'. I've removed the name, as I can find no mention of him - or a similar name - on the web. Trouble is, it looks like misspelt Spanish (Rodriguez): Portuguese would be 'Augustinho Rodrigues'. Rothorpe (talk) 02:17, 15 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Some details here, including a newspaper photo of Don with "Agostinho Rodrigues" (close to your spelling). Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:50, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Information added. Sir Richardson (talk) 04:16, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Van Vliet or Vliet?
Throughout the article, we refer to him by middle and last names, "Van Vliet". When referred to in Zappa's article he is only referred to as "Vliet". I believe that "Vliet" would be possibly more accurate and aesthetic. I'm unsure. Sir Richardson (talk) 12:28, 16 January 2010 (UTC)


 * "Van" isn't a middle name, it's part of the assumed surname (like Rembrandt van Rijn). "Vliet" is appropriate in the Zappa article because it's discussing their relationship before Don took on the new name. I'd say Van Vliet because that's what he's more commonly known as. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:00, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Ah, that's alright then. It was just a consideration. Sir Richardson (talk) 15:30, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Frank Zappa, 1997
Unfortunately FZ was not able to say anything in 1997, as he died in 1993.24.4.132.165 (talk) 21:19, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Attribution
It's well known that Don was an enthusiastic self-mythologizer (only went to half a day of school, wrote all of TMR in a single 8-1/2 hour session, didn't take drugs, etc etc). With this in mind it would be appropriate to attribute any of his statements not confirmed by other sources using "According to Van Vliet..." or "He has stated..." or similar wording. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 22:53, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Allmusic
Like The Beatles' article, it would be best to delete references to individual Allmusic reviewers, to just instead say "according to Allmusic", or "Allmusic says", etc. I'll copyedit the article accordingly, if I can get consensus. Sir Richardson (talk) 16:55, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm deleting the Last.fm reference
Last.fm biographies are collectively written by users. Their primary resource to write it with is obviously this article. Identifying reliable sources. Sir Richardson (talk) 13:59, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Tull?
Nothing here about Beefheart doing a combined tour with Jethro Tull? I don't know enough about it to add it to the article, but I think it ought to be mentioned.--119.225.64.161 (talk) 02:48, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Captain Boldheart
Charles Dickens wrote Captain Boldheart & the Latin-Grammar Master. Merely a coincidence? Tsinfandel (talk) 21:53, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

It was written decades before. So probably. Sir Richardson (talk) 21:55, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Death
I am incredibly sad to announce that Beefheart has allegedly died according to numerous sources. The article will be updated accordingly. Sir Richardson (talk) 21:48, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Bad sentence?
'These were from a younger generation of musicians eager to work with Beefheart and extremely capable of playing his music.' This is a perfectly good sentence, nothing dangling or undefined, so I tried to restore it. Rothorpe (talk) 18:12, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Magic Band section
I have to say the existence of this section typifies the ever-increasing overkill of this article. Why, towards the end, start the story all over again? YAWWWWWWWWWWWN. Rothorpe (talk) 00:36, 6 February 2011 (UTC) - Oh, I see, it's been moved from the beginning, but the fact that they reformed without him does not, to me, justify such a jolting departure from chronology.

Hi Rothorpe Surely, readers arriving in the Wiki looking for info on The Magic Band should not have to plow through Beefheart's life story? They need a 'stand-alone' section? The section was there when I arrived - but I agree broadly with your comment. In fact "The Magic Band" needs to be a separate article IMHO. Webcor (talk) 04:16, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No, I don't think the Magic Band are separable from Beefheart. If they reformed again, it's his music they'd be playing. I don't think they even need a separate section. (And I can see Don nodding in agreement, as if he could have done it all on his own.) The reformation deserves a section, but that's something different. Rothorpe (talk) 01:40, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Comment from IP
In response to the sentence "Their material circumstances were dire. With no income other than welfare and contributions from relatives, the group barely survived and were even arrested for shoplifting food (Zappa bailed them out)", an IP editor in [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=569862531 this edit] added the comment "See documentary: From Straight To Bizarre - Zappa, Beefheart, Alice Cooper And LA's Lunatic Fringe" inside the citation needed tag. Anomie⚔ 21:31, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Son House.
Don Van Vliet said that he knew Son House.77Mike77 (talk) 01:59, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Poor wording noted, and a general comment.
'Thus, it seemed quite logical to promote the group as "Captain Beefheart and his Magic Band"...' There is nothing preceding this sentence to justify the word "thus". Also, there is one basic flaw in minimizing Don's contribution to the music: the style is distinctively Beefheart, even when the players are completely different. "Cardboard Cutout Sundown" sounds like it could have been on Trout Mask Replica, and it is a different band. Some members put out their own CDs, and while they were excellent, the music was not even remotely similar to the music on Beefheart albums. Certainly the bands played a huge role in arranging the music, but "arranging" should not be confused with "composing". If Don whistles a melody onto a cassette tape, and a guitarist transcribes it for the guitar, who is the composer? Don is.


 * Very good point. (Who are you? Please sign.) Rothorpe (talk) 15:36, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I forgot my password. This article has references that lead to apocryphal stories that random people have repeated. Someone thought it was a funny joke to say that a vacuum cleaner "sucks", and added it to the story. Don himself didn't claim to have said that. I don't believe he'd say something that silly to Huxley. Generally, wikipedia articles are unsalvageable, but I occasional point out glaring blunders without signing in. Not worth it.


 * This article went off the rails quite a long time ago. I'm not up to salvaging it on my own. Rothorpe (talk) 21:32, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Myths
This article is a jumble of facts and myths. Some links reference websites where common myths are repeated.77Mike77 (talk) 13:39, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Abba Zabba
I think there should be a reference to Abba Zabba to improve the article. I think this is a play on Zabba is a play on 'Zappa'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.100.233.206 (talk) 03:16, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Regardless of what you "think" Aba Zabba is a type of candy that was popular in the 60s and its also what the song is about. Mrmoustache14 (talk) 04:36, 19 January 2013 (UTC).

The Captain would have never talked dirty like that to one of his admirers.

Physical assaults
I agree that four and a half years without a source is too long for this passage:
 * "Physical assaults were encouraged at times, along with verbal degradation. At one point Cotton ran from the house and escaped for a few weeks, during which time Alex Snouffer filled in for him and helped to work up Ant Man Bee. French, who had thrown a metal cymbal at Cotton, ran after him yelling that he too wanted to come. Cotton later returned to the house with French's mother, who took him away for a few weeks, but he later felt compelled to return, as did Cotton. Mark Boston at one point hid clothes in a field across the street, planning his own getaway."

But it would be surprising if this detail had just been invented. Posting here in the hope that a source can be located. Quite a serious claim. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:53, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Wasn't that in John French's book? I haven't read it, but I think it was mentioned in the reviews. Curly "the jerk" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:33, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I think that's more than likely. And if it was available online, I suspect we'd have already heard about copyvio from Tomásina de Torquemadaaaa by now. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:52, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Arizona?
Don Van Vliet is not from Arizona. He is from California. The group "Captain Beefheart and His/the Magic Band" was from California.77Mike77 (talk) 20:50, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I guess you're objecting to the two Categories Category:Singers from Arizona and Category:Painters from Arizona? And indeed, the Mike Barnes Biography says that he made it up. So I've removed them. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:09, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. Another couple of things. Don was never on the Johnny Carson show. He was on Letterman's show twice. The other thing is that the article makes it sound like the Magic Band existed as a separate entity. The name of the act was Captain Beefheart and His Magic Band, and Don was the singer (and also harp and sax). Later, Don changed "His" to "The". After Don passed, some of the alumni did regroup as The Magic Band, but they did not originate as a separate band.77Mike77 (talk) 13:34, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

This gives a very different account of the origin of the name of the group. http://www.freewebs.com/teejo/odd/gnome.html 77Mike77 (talk) 13:44, 2 April 2017 (UTC)


 * There is no protection on this article. You are free to edit and make corrections as you see fit. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:16, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Separate article about the Magic Band
Shouldn't there be a separate article about his Magic Band? He was the mastermind behind the band, but wouldn't it be more appropriate to dedicate an article only to that? Like the Paul is Dead thing. It used to be in the Paul McCartney article and then it was moved to another. User:Sinclair_98_luis 13:00 19 July 2018 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. The name at the time was like Big Brother and The Holding Company. After Don Van Vliet (Beefheart) retired from music, some former band members did tour and record as The Magic Band, but it did not exist as a distinct entity prior to that. There should be an article about this later excellent band, that begins from the point where Don Van Vliet retired.77Mike77 (talk) 22:10, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Trout Mask Replica as their masterpiece
Although the conventional wisdom seems to be that Trout Mask is the group's magnum opus, there are quite a number of relevant/important/influential music writers whose firm opinion is that any number of Beefheart albums are at least the equal of Trout Mask. Robert Christgau, Trouser Press and Lester Bangs to name a few off the top of my head. I'm pretty sure that the claim that the consensus is that it's the group's magnum opus, their masterpiece, not equaled or surpassed by any other albums, is more than open to question. Xelkman (talk) 02:03, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

naming convention...
it seems odd that throughout this article the author couldnt decide if they wanted to refer to the subject as "vliet" or "van vliet" and just used either at any occasion with no rhyme or reason. isnt there already some kind of standard for this, like only using the surname given at birth, or only using the surname carried through the majority of life or career. i dont think using either surname all willy nilly however you please is any type of standard. am i mistaken here or is this a common practice im just unaware of?? Snarevox (talk) 13:49, 21 March 2022 (UTC)


 * The lead section says "He began performing with his Captain Beefheart persona in 1964...". So that ought to provide a pretty clear guide as when to use which name? I guess he was involved in such things as legal proceedings is birth name might have to be re-used? 15:55, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
 * There are several issues here. Firstly, he apparently changed his legal name from "Vliet" to "Van Vliet" around 1965.  Secondly, he was known during his performing career (1964-c.1985) as "Captain Beefheart" (though at the time his "real" name of "Van Vliet" was well known).  Finally, in his personal life and as a painter he was always known, I think, as "Van Vliet".   My view is that he should be referred to as "Vliet" in his early life; "Captain Beefheart" (or "Beefheart") in relation to his music career; and "Van Vliet" elsewhere.  There is some guidance at MOS:BIO, but it's not very helpful.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:39, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Those are very valid points. No objections. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:44, 21 March 2022 (UTC)