Talk:Captain Novolin/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: J Milburn (talk · contribs) 16:32, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Claiming this review now - what could be a better topic than one of the worst video games of all time? It may take me a few days to get review to you. Josh Milburn (talk) 16:32, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * "by keeping Novolin's glucose level save" What does this mean?
 * clarified. GamerPro64  17:14, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
 * "him realize that needed to be a new way to give kids medical information, including diabetes" What does this mean? Also, is "kids" too informal?
 * He considered video games to be a new method of giving children medical information. GamerPro64  17:14, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry to mention this again a few days after I mentioned it a first time, but you messed up your author credits on a paper in an edited collection, leading you to make a claim in the article that was false (showing that this isn't "just" about getting our reference lists right). I've fixed it, but please try to be aware of it in the future!
 * Ditto! I should say that I don't think you really need to mention the names of the academics involved in the article proper, but if you are doing, you need to get them right!
 * " all of the parents in the evaluation" All one of them?
 * I removed the sentence. GamerPro64  17:14, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
 * "The magazine Esquire included Captain Novolin with their “Dubious Achievement Awards of 1992“.[11]" Unclear.
 * Added some context. GamerPro64  17:14, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The reception section feels a bit listy. I wonder if there is more to be drawn from these various reviews?
 * I added a bit more but the reviews just seem to be that stuff sucks in the game. GamerPro64  19:19, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

I've done some quite heavy copyediting; please do check. Images and sources look OK. Josh Milburn (talk) 14:12, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Ok, good, looking much better - I made a few more tweaks. I'm getting a lot of hits on Google Scholar - I'm left feeling that this might be a topic of more interest to those concerned with diabetes rather than those concerned with video games. Have you had a sift through these hits? Is there more to be said from a medical (understood broadly) side? Josh Milburn (talk) 12:13, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I found one more study involving Novolin that I think is noteworthy. Even though I think they work for Raya Systems so I'm concerned about their reliability, as they are also used in another source in the article. GamerPro64  13:33, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * are you still reviewing this article? GamerPro64  11:32, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, sorry, I've not has as much time for Wikipedia as I might like recently. I'll get to this today or over the weekend. Josh Milburn (talk) 12:47, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

I've corrected the formatting on your new source, but, as best as I can see, it doesn't mention Captain Novolin at all - could you tell me what page number I'll find the claims about Captain Novolin? Josh Milburn (talk) 15:05, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I actually saw that info from another source titled "Journal of Games, Self, and Society". Thought it would be better to get the information from the main source rather than that. GamerPro64  17:46, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm a little puzzled at why that one has been included - I'm seeing lots of potentially useful hits on Google Scholar. I can help with access, if that's the issue? Josh Milburn (talk) 15:07, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah you can help. I don't know what to add to this article meanwhile. GamerPro64  17:46, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * My worry about the article is that you do a good job of presenting the "video game" side of the article, but you don't do a great job of presenting the "diabetes research" side of the article. There were a couple of sources, but the way they were used was pretty confused, and now a third source has been added but it's not obvious that it actually mentions the game. If there are particular articles you're keen to get access to, I may be able to help you get hold of them (that's what I meant by access) - but I'm not sure it's part of my reviewer role to actually go out and do the research. I recommend Google Scholar as a starting point. On the first page of results, for example, I'm seeing this, this, this, this, and this. I'm not saying there's definitely stuff there that needs to be added - I've not read them. I'm just asking if you have looked through them. Josh Milburn (talk) 18:40, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The first three links require a registration or paying for access. The fourth link repeats a source already used in the article and the fifth just randomly mentions Novolin. GamerPro64  19:40, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, medical studies are often behind paywalls. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be engaging with them - there are lots of on-Wikipedia ways to help you get access, and I have offered to help you get access. The fact that this is an article dealing with medical claims actually makes matters more complicated, as we really need to be paying attention to the MEDRS guidelines, and (for example) favouring secondary sources and especially reviews over primary studies. So, for example, if an paper "repeats a source already used in the article", but the paper is secondary and the source primary, there's every reason to prefer the paper that "repeats" the other as a source for this article. (Though the chapter does not repeat a source already used, as far a I can see. The study it discusses related to Captain Novolin is by Lieberman, who you do cite, but it's a chapter in the 1997 book called Health Promotion and Interactive Technology - so I do think this is indicative of how the article should be improved.) I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm getting the impression that developing the clinical side of the article is not something that you're particularly interested in doing, so I am wondering about the way forward. If you think I'm wrong about the article, we could request a third opinion. If you think I have a point, but you're not comfortable making the changes, we could close the review and perhaps seek out someone to help, perhaps from WikiProject Medicine (which, tellingly, this article hasn't been added to), with the aim of renominating once someone has put a few hours into the more medical side. Josh Milburn (talk) 07:59, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I am always down with getting another opinion on this. Maybe even someone who frequents the Medicine WikiProject. GamerPro64  00:09, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Great - I'll request it. Would you mind if I reached out to a couple of people who have written medicine articles to try to speed up the process? Josh Milburn (talk) 07:05, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Fine by me. GamerPro64  12:52, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi - just had a read-over of the article. I think it does need some more sourcing from medical articles to embellish the medical/educational aspects of the game (as that is what makes the game notable and is in fact the rationale for the game's existence) I will try and get fulltexts of the three links above. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:53, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Did you get the fulltexts yet? GamerPro64  02:43, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Oops/sorry. Got distracted and forgot. Will look today Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:31, 7 May 2020 (UTC)


 * send me an email and I will send the three articles Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:24, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you feel that the article would be ready for GA status if some content from those articles was added? Josh Milburn (talk) 20:31, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I have had a brief look at the three articles I will send to GamerPro64 - there isn't much in them. Hopefully some context can be set with video games and DM. Prose is okay. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:55, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Reading the three sources, I agree with Casliber. The first source he gave was a rehash of the "Lieberman & Brown" source being used. At least it helped let me know that the earlier source mentioning the 77 percent decrease was meant for Packy and Marlon, so that needed to be pulled. And the other two sources I will just quote what they had to say about Captain Novolin:


 * "Video games about diabetes are available through pharmaceutical companies. In 'Captain Novolin' a Nintendo game by Novo Nordisk, Princeton, New Jersey, the player mus help Captain Novolin, who has diabetes, protect the world from aliens disguised as sugary junk food. [...] In both games [mentions Packy & Marlon too] the players must manage the diet, insulin, and activities of the characters. Both games match the insulin regime of the video character with the regime of the child playing the game. These games allow children to make decisions about insulin doses, blood glucose management, and dietary needs while earning points and fighting enemies."

GamerPro64 03:37, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "Captain Novolin, published in 1992, challenges players to fight evil doughnuts, milk shakes, sodas, and other sweets while making sure that Captain Novolin keeps his blood glucose in the normal range by eating healthy foods and using insulin. This decision-making game rehearses diabetes self-management kills and good food choices and is the first console video game for diabetes self-management."


 * Matthew Williamson for GameSetWatch was negative towards the Captain Novolin sprite, saying that it took up one-third of the screen - I don't see why a large srpite is a problem...? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:55, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I would think it would mean a larger hitbox, causing it to be easier to be hit by enemies. GamerPro64  00:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)


 * pinging to get his nomination going forward. GamerPro64  16:55, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The only thing I can think of is was there anything else in the papers on games educating about medical issues/diabetes in general to add to give this a bit of context. I don't recall anything jumping out at me to add but something would be ncie if possible. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:36, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I guess remarking that Novolin is the first game for diabetes self-management is notable enough to include? GamerPro64  20:25, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
 * If you've got a source stating that, go ahead. You could use that as an opportunity to mention some that came afterwards, perhaps with a general comment (as Casliber suggests) about the role video games have played in self-management. Josh Milburn (talk) 11:46, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I added a little bit more. GamerPro64  17:44, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes I think that helps give it that bit of context. I'm happier now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:18, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Are we good now? GamerPro64  20:33, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, great. If Cas is happy, I'm happy - third opinion offered and acted upon. Promoting now. Josh Milburn (talk) 12:22, 25 May 2020 (UTC)