Talk:Cara Cunningham/Archive 8

Leaving Youtube.
Do you think we should have another small article under Selected videography about the video "Leaving Youtube/WWW.MSCHRISCROCKER.COM" because I think that video is one of his most important videos on youtube.

Kittycatbeck (talk) 23:17, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The video only has 300,000 views so far; I suggest waiting a bit to see what happens over the next few weeks/months. Banj e  b oi   02:21, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The video has gotten at least 700,000 views, its about time. :) Kittycatbeck (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:37, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It's been included in the post meme career but it's very similar to his many other videos so i don't see a need to also list it as a separate video. Most of those others have 1 or 2 million views. Banj e  b oi   07:09, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Someone should note that the site has not been updated recently, and only contains a small selection of this videos from his YouTube channel. His song announcement video is not even on his official site! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.101.64 (talk) 15:11, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * This is just an opinion but from what I've seen with internet social networking sites, they try to steer everyone to one channel to drive up there numbers there. I think Crocker wasn't getting a good deal with YouTube or otherwise felt he needed to move. I think he sttaes that in his videos as well. -- Banj e  b oi   18:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Chris Crocker's Music
He has mentioned recently that hes releasing his own CD, I think that should be added to this article. Kittycatbeck (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, his recent relationship with Nick Snider and his commercial. We are missing a lot of important, new details here. :\ Kittycatbeck (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm open to it, do you have any reliable sources for his music or Nick Snider? If not post here as soon as something pops up. Banj e  b oi   07:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, his blog on www.mschriscrocker.com is a source, also with heart filled videos about breaking up with Snider. Then another video posted by ChrisCrockersDeleted on youtube about his new music coming out on itunes.


 * chris with nick snider
 * chris upset with nick snider
 * update on crocker music
 * blogs of crocker, nick snider and music
 * chris's commercial, third on right

oh, and thanks for being open to it. I'll post whenever something happens.

Kittycatbeck (talk) 18:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I think we should wait, just until "Mind in the Gutter" is actually released (iTunes - which is tough to source) in October. I suppose we could add a sentence that he has plans to record. The Snider stuff I would leave out as BLP concern, he's a romantic interest, at least for now but is either the romance or Snider notable? The Sierra Mist commercial would be a good addition to the parodies section. Banj e  b oi   22:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * important? seriously? Drmies (talk) 00:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Now now let's play nice! This may be more or less important to other editors - luckily we can lean on policies to include or disinclude information so it's more about what reliable sources state is important. -- Banj e  b oi   18:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Birthday
I heard him mention he has the same b-day as Britney Spears, so I fixed that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.32.149.132 (talk) 03:01, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * we need a reliable source, do you have a source where he said this? --  Banj e  b oi    01:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I have added Chris' corrected birthday with reference from TMZ.com. :P Keithf2008 (talk) 01:36, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

 * This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Chris Crocker (Internet celebrity)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

I don't think that this is quite GA class anymore. It's well sourced, but the fact that it has a copyedit tag and a list of miscellaneous information have me convinced. (Furthermore, am I the only person who bothers to specify what an article needs copy editing for? It's not that hard, you know!) Overall, I don't think that the prose is up to GA standards anymore. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 01:21, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've removed the copyedit tag as it is quite unhelpful - as I recall it was placed from an editor who was since been banned but if it's placed again we should get specific sections to be addressed. I'll work on cleaning this up a bit. Is the list of miscellaneous information regarding the post-career section? If so I'll look to see if that can be rewritten as well. --  Banj e  b oi    01:58, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that part needs a rewrite, as does the list of other videos. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 04:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Why not cut the whole article after par. 4? Isn't that enough blather on this character? Drmies (talk) 18:39, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Drmies, that is an interesting proposal but falls under I don't like it. There is a lot more to Crocker, much of it I simply have held off as the non-stop badgering and vandalism were tiring. In essence he is, or at least was, on the vanguard of LGBT people, and young people in general, bypassing all forms of tradition media to embrace social networking sites and vlogging. His case is quite likely to start popping up in books so more thoughtful (and less scandalistic) content will emerge. Until then we have quite a few reliable sources that support the current content. --  <u style="text-decoration:none;font-family: papyrus;color:#CC00CC">Banj e  <u style="font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi    19:17, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:IDONTLIKEIT is an argument to avoid in deletion discussions - not relevant here. Geometry guy 22:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * TenPoundHammer, I'm unsure the best way to rewrite the videography section or if it needs a rewrite. To me it was the least expansive way of highlighting some of the, now 100 or so, videos he's done. This is what he does, If an author does 100 books but achieved international fame for #55 how do we treat the rest?
 * I do agree the post career section, which has been simply grown bit by bit, needs more coherence. --  <u style="text-decoration:none;font-family: papyrus;color:#CC00CC">Banj e  <u style="font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi    19:17, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added a clean-up tag. I suggest moving the primary sources for the videos from the notes. Geometry guy 22:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. Yes the whole "Post-meme career" section needs re-organizing. Will look to it when a have a bit more time to rework it. --  <u style="text-decoration:none;font-family: papyrus;color:#CC00CC">Banj e  <u style="font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi    19:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Benjiboi, thanks for your response. And you are right, I don't like it, and I know that that's very irrelevant here. But what I really don't like is that in essence we are complicit in turning nobodies into somebodies. I understand the whole vanguard of the movement and all--I just find it sad that America needs that kind of a vanguard, an airhead. But despite the many objective references and all, there is still not a lot of there there, and I do believe that the article is way too long. See, I've already wasted ten or twelve minutes of my life on this person, so over and out! Drmies (talk) 22:58, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol! Yes, I understand the concern but there is actually something there - I can't put my own synthesis to intuit his role but There are quite a few sources that have been stating what I thought was going on. He's very similar to a Tila Tequilla or one of the first Angelyne. What this speaks to is a younger generation's embracing and enmeshing with social networking and video diaries. Also the narcism related to such. He may not be the best example of a singer or celebrity but he's an example of a LGBT vlogger celebrity who's famous for being famous (because his fame was tied to Britney Spears). Arguably his notability had risen to a notable level without her but we'll never know what might have been. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#CC00CC">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   18:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I have pruned back the article considerably, mostly per WP:BLP. The subject is notable and there are secondary sources, even if some of them are less than stellar. However, even after my pruning, some of the writing is based on primary source material, opening it to the charge of original research by synthesis. We are writing an encyclopedia here, a tertiary source. We have to be particularly careful about this when writing biographies of living persons. The temptation, as soon as a subject becomes notable, is to add every snippet of information about them, no matter whether it is speculation or even gossip. That temptation must be resisted. Wikipedia is also not a source of external links, so we also have to resist the temptation to link to a plethora of primary source material (such as You Tube videos) just because we can.

I have probably not quite cut and tidied enough to bring this article within policy. I've certainly not cut enough to leave a good article. There's also plenty to do beyond cutting to bring the article to GA. I've marked a few issues in the article. Also the lead is not a summary of the article. I am delisting it. Geometry guy 22:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * You have removed some perfectly helpful and sourced content that adds needed context for this vlogger and sourcing to relevant youtube videos sourcing what he himself and in context of his work is well within RS. Hacking away entire sections also didn't help nor was removing sourcing then asking for a cite. Sometimes a hammer and an ax aren't helpful. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   23:33, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This discussion is closed and I have removed your comment to the talk page. Geometry guy 23:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Mostly Primary Sources
I'm currently on the border as to whether or not Chris Crocker is notable. I mean, there was a lot of buzz about him and whatnot, yadda yadda. But the article is mostly sourced with primary, self published sources. I think we should focus on getting this thing sourced through and through with secondary sourcing. If not, and it stays where's it's at, it will have no chance of getting to be brilliant prose. Paranormal Skeptic (talk) 00:15, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It's actually not "mostly sourced with primary, self published sources". Percentage-wise there may be more self-published sources but that's only because that is his medium and where we cite how many views, etc. The majority of the content is independent of Crocker. This article is a constant vandal magnet so frankly there are, that I'm aware, at least a dozen more sources and content I'd like to add but frankly uphill battles are tiring. My hunch is that it's on a slower path to improvement but even at it's current state is much better sourced than most and if there are any obvious errors they are quickly spotted and dealt with. -- <u style="font-size:12px; font-family: cursive;color:#CC00CC">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   00:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you missed my point. Yes, percentage-wise, the statements in the article are cited with primary sources.  I understand it being a vandal magnet, but I also think rather than work on expansion of the article, etc.  We should work on converting whatever primary sources into secondary sources. Paranormal Skeptic (talk) 00:59, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, dealing with other dramas. Notability has been reached so let's just focus on sources. Of the primary sourcing used the vast majority is tied directly to his video work and is used appropriately. When not tied to a specific video we state "Crocker states ___" which also adheres to policy and very little of that is exceptional claims. So I'm open to using better sourcing but am unclear which sources you think are in most needing of replacing. -- <u style="font-size:12px; font-family: cursive;color:#CC00CC">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   00:10, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

almost 23 million views (LBA)
article should be updated to reflect this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.12.54 (talk) 04:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * done. -- <u style="font-size:12px; font-family: cursive;color:#CC00CC">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   00:15, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Pic is mislabelled as "Chris Cocker"
Thought you should know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.176.104.93 (talk) 23:21, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. thanks for catching it. -- Banj e <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   19:50, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * To tell you the turth,that doesnt necesarily have to have been a mistake.Theres alot of (valid I believe) hate for this guy around. --93.185.50.19 (talk) 07:40, 20 January 2009 (UTC)