Talk:Caral–Supe civilization/translations

Spanish reader wanted
For starters, though, here's the information on the "card":


 * - Jmabel | Talk 20:03, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the four links amount to the same thing as the PDF. But here is a quick rundown, tell me what you might need fleshed out:

The city of Caral-Supa at the Dawn of Civilization in Peru

Chapter 1 - located on the left bank of the Supe River on the north central coast of Peru, near present-day Caral. Lack of water today raises questions about how 17 large civic centers were maintained. Obviously conditions must have been different, possibly through river-based irrigation projects (also mentions some possibilities of subsoil irrigation).

There are some relicts of rich and varied past natural resources (you can probably work out exactly which plants are mentioned by using Google to get the Latin species names, then looking up the English. It also goes on about fish, etc. Basically it's trying to explain how a large population could have been fed.) There were also good routes of communication.

Groups antecedent to the inhabitants of Caral: disappearance of megafauna in the Holocene, etc. (pretty much the expected story for the region), neolithic tribes, etc. Interregional contacts and development of complex organization beginning 3000-2500 BCE. Increasing social inequality as productivity increased in Late Archaic or Preceramic Era. Establishment of complex societies, monumental constructions, appearance of civilization and the state. This is the period of Caral.

Other contemporary establishments: Áspero, on the littoral of the Supe valley; La Galgada in the basin of Chuquicara, a tributary of the Río Santa; Piruro, in Tantamayo, Huánuco; Kotosh in Huánuco; Huaricoto, in el Callejón de Huaylas; and el Paraíso, in the lower valley of the Río Chillón. These places interacted with one another, and they show a greater complexity than was originally supposed to pertain to the Late Archaic: this suggests that civilization in Peru is a millennium older than previously supposed. Of these, Caral was the most distinguished by extent and monumentality.

It then goes on to detail the discovery of Caral.

Chapter 2 - the holy city of Caral, city of the pyramids (6 large pyramids visible from valley floor). Description of setting. Aproximately 50 hectares, more than 32 architectonic complexes of various sizes and diverse functions: temples, residential sectors, public plazas, amphitheatre, storehouses, altars, streetss, etc. Layout somewhat described.

The work of the countryside: on the archaeological investigations (who did them, etc.)

"The temple of the amphitheatre": describes this complex in some detail

"The altar of holy fire": again, a physical description, "Kotosh religious tradition"

The small temple of the "Banqueta" (pavement? stool?)" another physical description.

Different areas of the north central region: residential sectors, "constructions of Huarango and Quincha", special deposit of offerings, "latrine", stepped platform: each described in some detail.

Human sacrifices: evidence of, associated with a pyramid

The large temple (Pyramid E), the auxiliary structure of the quadrangular pyramid: again, physical descriptions.

Chapter 3: The society of Caral-Supe, preliminary inferences

We can assign the city to the Late Archaic (3000-1500 BCE), beginning in the third millennium BCE and lasting several centuries (as we can see from superposed constructions). We can see changes over time in the design and conception of the city. It was the largest city in the area, monumental (they list some of the complexes of buildings).

The sacredness of the city: socioeconomic and political focus was the temples, which were periodically remodeled, major burnt offerings associated with the remodeling.

Aspects of the economy: mixed economy (agricultural, sea fishing, river fishing, molluscs. They cultivated the fertile riverbanks, and used river water to irrigate creating an abundance of flora and fauna.

The residents (the term that they use more or less means "parishioners"): they knew architecture, geometry, astronomy. There was an urban character. Similar enough to Aspero in the littoral of Supe to suggest specialists who made their services available to both places and intense communication between the two.

The formative period shows more extensive (vs. intensive) construction, more diversity, less focus on sacred character. Religious structures from that period seem to be more intimate, possibly familial. The society then became more hierarchical, with specific social roles (peasants, fishers, specialists in religion or as officials). Some buildings had walls to separate them off from the rest of the community (and there are some remarks about a symbol of power called the usnu).

Besides peoples primary jobs, they were periodically pressed into construction services.

17 urban centers in the valley would require more investment than could come from just the valley itself. Possibly the name of the valley, Supe (from Supay, "demon", "devil"), might reflect respect and fear of the onetime power.

Other populations of the time: (I'm skipping this unless you need it)

Significance of Caral in the Peruvian cultural process and international context: mostly seems a reiteration of what they've already said: that Peru has the oldest civilization in the Americas, antedating similar Mesoamerican civilizations by a millennium.

The abandonment of the sacred city: Before abandoning, the inhabitants buried all the buildings with dense layers of pebbles, cut stonees and boulders, as well as traditional offerings. Sand then naturally accumulated on top of that. In the first three centuries CE, some groups buried their dead in certain sectors of the old city, without knowing its history. Excavations have revealed its splendor; there is nothing else similar known from the era.

Chapter 4: Conclusions
 * 1) The Supe valley was one of the most important places where Peruvian civilization began.
 * 2) The city of Caral, from the Late Archaic (5000-3500 years ago), is one of the most developed places associated with this.
 * 3) It was an agricultural ecmonomy, complemented by fishing (and a couple of other things)
 * 4) High level of social organization using religion to manage the work force.
 * 5) Complex hierarchical social organization.
 * 6) Built, destroyed, built again in a ritual context.
 * 7) Drew on the resources of an area greater than the Supe valley
 * 8) (Summarizes the sphere of interaction)
 * 9) Seat of a society of great prestige in the Late Archaic.

- Jmabel 08:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Excellent, thank you! This is enough to form the generic sentences I may use it for and it seems obvious it's arguing for a "civilization", not merely a "culture" or one large center. I'll only ask for a specific translation of one thing, if you could: "17 urban centers in the valley would require more investment than could come from just the valley itself." (I'll post the Spanish in a note, if you point me to it.) Thanks again, Marskell 19:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The relevant passage is:


 * El número de centros urbanos (17), identificado en el valle de Supe, y su magnitud, requirieron de una gran cantidad de mano de obra y de los excedentes, para su edificación, mantenimiento, remodelación y enterramiento. Si consideramos exclusivamente la capacidad productiva de este pequeño valle, esa inversión no habría podido ser realizada sin la participación de las comunidades de los valles vecinos.


 * That is:


 * The number of urban centers (17) identified in the Supe Valley, and their magnitude, requires a great quantity of surplus labor for their construction, maintenance, remodeling and burial. If we consider exclusively the productive capacity of this small valley, this investment could not have been realized without the participation of the communities of neighboring valleys.


 * By the way, the HTML page is in ISO-8851-9, which is a bit annoying: if you are doing searches, you need to change to this odd encoding. - Jmabel | Talk 20:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I don't know ISO-8851-9 from a barn door. The anon who posted, and the Spanish sources generally, have a problem with presentation (there's much good stuff on a blog, for instance, but I can't use it.) If you read the page you'll see interesting hints of how Anglo researchers can maximize their language advantage; but that's a long story, and hopefully being able to cite what you've translated will be step against systemic bias. So, then:

Marskell 20:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)