Talk:Carausius

recent news about the fellow and his coinage
http://historyoftheancientworld.com/2010/07/52000-roman-coins-discovered-in-england/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.69.219.3 (talk) 21:39, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * now see Frome Hoard. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:40, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Concerns about RichardSkelding's additions
User:RichardSkelding has made some significant additions to this article over the last week or so, much of it valuable, but I have concerns with some of it. In discussing Carausius' literary reference on coins, the article now reads:


 * "No other Roman emperor in history ever made such an explicit reference to famous Roman literature. It is quite extraordinary that in a remote province like Britain a rebel emperor should utilise such a method to appeal to his public. He was claiming to represent a revival of traditional Roman virtues and the great traditions of the Empire as established by Augustus in the last decades of the first century BC, not in Rome but in Britain."

This is unsourced, I'm not sure of its accuracy - is it really true that no other Roman emperor made reference to famous literature? - and phrases like "quite extraordinary" are opinion and potential peacock terms. Needs some attention. In the discussion of Carausius' milestone, we have the following:


 * "The words "Pius Felix Invictus" suggest he was considered pious/religious, fortunate/successful and invincible."

Surely this would be better served simply by translating the Latin words? I would also think an official inscription like this would be a mater of how Carausius wanted to present himself, rather than how he was considered.

The stuff about Saint Caron also needs some attention. To claim "Almost certainly he is the saint Caron associated with Tregaron" cited only to a book published in 1832 is pretty tenuous, and the extract from Geoffrey of Monmouth has to go, partly because it's not history, and partly because the connection with Saint Caron is dubious. Carausius appears as a character in Geoffrey's Historia (discussed in the "Legend" section), and does all the things that the quote included, taken from an 1811 translation, attributes to Caron. There are many more modern translations of Geoffrey's Historia. It seems that this particular translator in 1811 has identified Caron with Carausius and used the name Caron to translate Carausius. It doesn't prove any link between Carausius and Caron independent of the 1811 translation. The attempt to explain his sainthood by reference to Diocletian's persecutions is unsourced and possibly original research.

I'll notify Richard of this discussion, and link to it at the Classical Greece and Rome wikiproject for some more opinions. --Nicknack009 (talk) 14:16, 26 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree that the description is probably a bit excessive. The intention is self-evident; Carausius wanted to present himself as a legitimate emperor and successor of Augustus.  But that's hardly unusual or extraordinary; pretty much all imperial coinage is intended to do that, including that of claimants, usurpers, and pretenders.  As for Pius Felix, it was a common formula on imperial coinage and doesn't really say anything about Carausius that wasn't said about most of his contemporaries (at least on their coinage).  Invictus isn't as common, but it's still pretty much in the same general line, awarding himself the style of "unconquered" or "unconquerable" ("invincible" is closer etymologically, but perhaps not as close to the meaning in English, where the word carries additional connotations).  In any case, it's how Carausius chose to present himself, not necessarily how anybody else viewed him.


 * I won't reject an old source out of hand for identifying Carausius with Saint Caron, although the claim does sound dubious. But I haven't seen the source and can't evaluate the qualifications of the author for making that identification.  Age alone isn't grounds to discard it, but failure to explain itself or be followed by subsequent scholarly literature might be.  P Aculeius (talk) 18:01, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Initial response
I welcome this debate and I am giving your points my consideration. Just to clarify though, I have not made any contributions or changes with regard to coinage.RichardSkelding (talk) 14:34, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I misinterpreted the history there - one of your edits moved the passage I quoted, but didn't add it, it was already there. It's a problematic passage though, and needs attention whoever added it. --Nicknack009 (talk) 16:24, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Some changes re Caron
I do agree with some of your points. Geoffrey's "history" is not reliable, but it is in the translation from Welsh that the name Caron appears (I don't know, but assume this name appeared in the original Welsh version), I have tried to clarify this. The origin of the Welsh saint Caron is not known, I am trying to make the point that Carausius is a candidate if 'Carausius' became 'Caron' in Welsh. I have also moved the paragraph to the 'Legend' section.

Regarding "Pius Felix Invictus", I agree this would probably be Carausius' opinion of himself and I have made a change to indicate that. I intentionally avoided a full translation of the expanded inscription, I felt "...the pious, the lucky, the invincible" would make it very clumpsy, especially if I included alternative translations of "pius" and "felix".RichardSkelding (talk) 17:33, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Stone Slab from Penmacho
If you click on the picture of the stone slab, the information accompanying it dates it to the 6th Century CE. This suggests it is unconnected with the Carausius who declared himself emperor in Britain in the late 3rd Century. I would suspect that the picture and the paragraph alongside it should be removed from this page as irrelevant. Jscb (talk) 15:49, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * It is actually dated to the 5th or 6th century. This does suggest it was not contemporary with Carausius, but it could have been commissioned by an early Christian community in the 5th or 6th century to commemorate a newly-named, early Welsh saint based on a remembered leader/king/emperor (cf. 21st century grave marker for Richard III) Emerald (talk) 20:24, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

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