Talk:Caravan (Juan Tizol and Duke Ellington song)

Requested move 29 July 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. Armbrust The Homunculus 08:08, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Caravan (1937 song) → Caravan (1936 song) – Article states, that the song was first performed in 1936. Current name is misleading. 213.168.127.37 (talk) 13:20, 29 July 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 14:21, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I noticed that the article originally stated 1937 until an IP changed it in June 2012 claiming that the 1937 date was wrong. Since there is no source for the date I would like to see some evidence befor making up my mind since the change could have been either a legitimate correction of subtitle vandalism than slipped through the cracks.--67.68.31.200 (talk) 20:30, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Conditional support. This link says December 1936. So, unless somebody has better information, I would support the move. --Richhoncho (talk) 11:00, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support - it seems clear enough from the jazz standards ref and the article itself. --Iztwoz (talk) 16:26, 9 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Whiplash as other version
Thought the inclusion of this song in the film was too notable to omit, as the soundtrack has won many awards. I made sure to cite a source but there may be a better one to use in which case please edit it as you see fit. Currently I kept it to one line in the section but I feel it could be it's own section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.96.46 (talk) 01:57, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Deletion of Harry James's cover of "Caravan" on 19-FEB-2016
This is regarding Binksternet's deletion of the post listing Harry James's cover of "Caravan", citing WP:SONGCOVER as the criteria. The application of WP:SONGCOVER would apply more appropriately, if at all, to the other existing cover versions listed, as explained below.

1. Juan Tizol, the composer of "Caravan," joined Harry James's band in 1944 after he left Duke Ellington, and the James band performed the song routinely as part of its repertoire. Tizol remained with the James band until 1951, then returned to play another seven years with James in 1953. So the James band was performing the cover with its composer as a member of the band, certainly giving the Harry James cover equal or more credibility than the other covers listed.

2. Harry James was a major recording artist, counting nine #1 hits on the U.S. pop chart to his credit, which is more than the Rolling Stones, and certainly more that the artists of the other existing covers listed. He was also considered by many as the most important and respected jazz trumpeter of the 1940s, being voted to the Metronome All-Stars for the years 1939, 1940 and 1941, and being chosen by Downbeat magazine readers as the best trumpet instrumentalist for the years 1937, 1938 and 1939, and as favorite soloist for 1942.

3. Harry James actually released two recordings of Caravan, a studio version and a live version, both of which are documented at discogs.com.

Given Harry James's prominent stature as a respected jazz musician, combined with the fact that Caravan's composer Juan Tizol played with the James band for fourteen years, certainly qualifies Harry James's covers of Caravan as notable. I'm going to re-post the cover on the Caravan page, adding the background information on Juan Tizol's tenure with the James band, and adding references for the two recordings. Thanks for Binksternet's input in making this a better post, but please do not delete it. Bubbatex (talk) 21:50, 20 February 2016 (UTC)


 * The SONGCOVER guideline does not give any weight to a song that was played often by a band in concert. SONGCOVER also doesn't give weight to how important the artist is. Generally, the song cover entries must be by notable artists, but being notable doesn't get your cover listed. Your third point is also not covered by the guideline at SONGCOVER: it says nothing about how the song was released. Generally, songs released as singles, or songs that charted despite not being released as a single, will be listed.
 * The guideline says that the cover version must be mentioned in reliable sources that discuss the song itself. None of your three points address that requirement. Binksternet (talk) 06:07, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

23-FEB-2016
"Notability" is the second requirement listed for WP:SONGCOVER. A cover song's notability is inherently linked, in part, to the notability of the cover's performer. WP:NSONGS, referenced by WP:SONGCOVER, states, "Songs and singles are probably notable if they have been the subject of multiple, non-trivial published works whose sources are independent of the artist and label." Here are some published references to James's covers of Caravan:
 * allmusic.com, Scott Yanow, "Harry James, Saturday Night Swing, AllMusic Review by Scott Yanow," http://www.allmusic.com/album/saturday-night-swing-mw0000891338
 * allmusic.com, Scott Yanow, "Harry James, Still Harry After All These Years, AllMusic Review by Scott Yanow," http://www.allmusic.com/album/still-harry-after-all-these-years-mw0000308798. The review mentions the Sheffield Lab direct-to-disc recording process which bypassed the use of magnetic tape and recorded the audio directly onto the analog disc master, which would be of interest to audiophiles.
 * ARSC Journal (Association for Recorded Sound Collections) Vol. 45, No. 2, Thomas Fine, "Harry James and His Big Band: The [Sheffield Lab] Harry James Sessions, 1976 & 1979," https://www.questia.com/library/journal/1G1-390562001/harry-james-and-his-big-band-the-harry-james-sessions
 * discogs.com, "Harry James – Saturday Night Swing," https://www.discogs.com/Harry-James-Saturday-Night-Swing/release/2031834
 * discogs.com, "Harry James & His Big Band ‎– Still Harry After All These Years," https://www.discogs.com/Harry-James-His-Big-Band-Still-Harry-After-All-These-Years/release/2670074
 * Big Band Library.com, Christopher Popa, "Collector's Checklists: Harry James 33s," http://www.bigbandlibrary.com/collectorschecklists33sjamesharry.html
 * pastemagazine.com, Bill Milkowski, "Harry James & Orchestra - Opus One/Caravan," http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2011/06/harry-james-orchestra-opus-onecaravan.html
 * pastemagazine.com, Bill Milkowski, "Harry James & Orchestra - Caravan," http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2010/09/harry-james-orchestra-caravan.html

Audio Downloads:
 * https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0054OC8C0
 * https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DX4VDH4
 * https://play.google.com/music/preview/Bq22bqvgspulaczccohmk2veniy
 * https://play.google.com/store/music/album/Harry_James_His_Big_Band_The_Harry_James_Sessions?id=Bqoc6mkkxl24scnmtlgmlxa2bui
 * http://redmp3.cc/album/686606/saturday-night-swing.html

Videos:
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpaV9DoKIM0
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlB82UZwuKg

Incidentally, there are a lot of references to the video of James's live 1964 cover of Caravan in Japan, featuring Buddy Rich on drums. Perhaps that performance should be added to the list of covers.
 * Drummerworld, Buddy Rich CARAVAN - Drum Solo with the Harry James Orchestra - 1964, http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/buddyrich64caravan.html
 * YouTube, Harry James-Caravan Live from Japan 1964, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyEeVTgZmOk
 * YouTube, Harry James - Caravan - Japan 1964, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DXL1ellNO0
 * YouTube, Harry James-Caravan, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY5v4Lk-_gQ

And this video of James's/Rich's live performance of Caravan from the early 1960's
 * Daily Motion, Caravan - Buddy Rich (Drums) with Harry James & his Orchestra, http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2thwi8
 * Vimeo, Harry James Orchestra, featuring Buddy Rich “Caravan”, https://vimeo.com/63132117
 * YouTube, Caravan - Buddy Rich (Drums) with Harry James & his Orchestra, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-AOK5ykfo4

Just curious what is it about these Harry James covers that is causing such a high level of scrutiny that has apparently not been applied to the other cover versions listed? There doesn't appear to be any challenge or evidence of how the other covers comply with the WP:SONGCOVER criteria, though in my opinion all the covers listed are relevant. Bubbatex (talk) 00:00, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Once again, notability of the artist is not the main point of WP:SONGCOVER. The main point is that the cover version should be discussed in reliable sources which are about the song itself, not about the artist. Videos don't satisfy the requirement. Audio downloads don't satisfy the requirement. Discogs is not reliable as it allows users to change the information. Binksternet (talk) 03:56, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

RfC: Inclusion of Harry James's and Santo & Johnny's covers of Caravan
Should the article's "Other versions" section list the cover versions by Harry James and Santo & Johnny? Bubbatex (talk) 00:24, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes - Revert the deletion and restore the cover versions to the list in the "Other Versions" section. Restore the Harry James covers for the reasons listed above, and restore the Santo & Johnny cover because it ranked #48 on the Billboard Hot 100 on April 23, 1960. (see http://www.billboard.com/artist/278147/santo-johnny/chart). Bubbatex (talk) 05:18, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * No, not unless the guideline at WP:SONGCOVER is satisfied by showing a published source talking about the song and saying that Harry James or Santo & Johnny are important to the topic. Binksternet (talk) 06:33, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Agree with Binksternet, a lot of unreferenced "other recordings" is not encyclopedic, but, if references can be found, I have no problem with adding a couple of example. --Richhoncho (talk) 09:42, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Charting at number 48 on the Hot 100 chart qualifies for inclusion in the "Other versions" section and should never have been removed in the first place. Furthermore, Billboard is a trusted published reliable source. Revert the deletion.  Caden  cool  12:56, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Charting as a single is definitive. Changing my !vote to Yes for Santo & Johnny, but No for Harry James. Binksternet (talk) 05:16, 28 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes. Per Bubbatex.  Caden  cool  03:03, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes for Santo & Johnny, as per Binksternet. Abstain on Harry James - suggest closing this RfC and opening a new one for Harry (need at least a day to read and digest preceding discussion!) Martinevans123 (talk) 20:13, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Binksternet was the one who removed Santo and Johnny from the article. He also originally voted against Santo and Johnny here in this RFC. He only changed his vote after I informed him that Santo and Johnny charted at number 48 on the Hot 100 chart and deserved to be mentioned in the article.  Caden  cool  13:55, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm going to leave the RfC open a little longer to see if a consensus develops for both tunes.Bubbatex (talk) 23:29, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Personally, I'd include Harry James, on the basis of sources such as this and this. But the rules at WP:SONGCOVER are quite strict, aren't they (even if I disagree with them). Martinevans123 (talk) 09:49, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with you Martin. I would include Harry James too. As for Santo and Johnny they pass WP:Songcover and we have consensus for them to be restored but Binksternet has yet to do that.  Caden  cool  16:37, 7 April 2016 (UTC)


 * This RFC has been open for a little over 30 days, and the bot has delisted it after the default 30-day duration.

Here is the vote tally of whether to restore the two deleted covers to the article:

As for discussion, most editors have indicated because the Santo & Johnny cover charted on Billboard, this merits its inclusion in the article. Richhoncho said he would support inclusion of the Harry James covers if references are provided, and Martinevans123 echoed this sentiment, providing two references in addition to those provided by Bubbatex in the original discussion.  Caden  and Bubbatex both believe the Harry James covers meet the criteria for inclusion stated in WP:SONGCOVER, while Binksternet disagrees.

Though not unanimous, the consensus supports restoring the deleted covers to the article. I will restore the covers to the article within roughly a week unless someone objects and feels analysis of the RfC results is not accurate. Thanks to everyone who participated in the RfC. Bubbatex (talk) 16:05, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I would suggest you restore it as soon as possible Bubbatex because we have consensus to do so.  Caden  cool  23:26, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

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