Talk:Carbon Recycling International

General discussion
Feel free to help with editing. Cktt13 (talk) 13:59, 12 July 2012 (UTC) This feels like a bit of an advert at the moment! Especially as all the references are from the same place.... The company that's being 'advertised' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.238.97.222 (talk) 22:39, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Do you have any suggestions? I agree... all the references are from the same place (easy starting point, I guess). I'll make them more diversified next week. Changed the language in some sections to be more neutral. Cktt13 (talk) 00:26, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Impartiality issues
If there are any sections or passages in the article that seem particularly biased, please post suggestions for improvement here.

Suggested references
http://www.methanol.org/getattachment/Environment/Renewable-Methanol/Carbon-Recycling-International.pdf.aspx

http://www.idnadarraduneyti.is/media/frettir/Carbon-Recycling-International-(CRI)---overview.pdf

http://www.worldenergy.org/documents/world_energy_council.carbon_recycling_international.september_2009n_presentation._pptx.pdf

http://www.nordicgreen.net/startups/biofuels/carbon-recycling-international

Will be adding these references later Cktt13 (talk) 15:17, 22 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Not one of these is suitable for establishing notability, or for that matter, serving as independent verification of the claims made. Each of your suggested references in order:


 * 1. is the company's press release hosted on the trade association of which they are a member
 * 2. is written by the company's CEO
 * 3. is written by the company's CEO
 * 4. are press releases hosted on a website listing start-ups looking for investors and vice-versa. They even have a dedicated email address for sending them press releases.
 * You need to read Notability (organizations and companies). In my view this company fails the notability criteria. I've also done a Google search on what's available and they are virtually all either press releases or clearly based on them or trivial mentions. Unsurprising since their plant was opened less than a year ago, and is still not operating at full capacity. The following 3 are the best I could find (the first is pretty clearly press-release based and the remaining two are trivial mentions):


 * http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90853/7225920.html


 * http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-03/alcoa-unlikely-to-build-smelter-in-north-iceland-visir-reports.html


 * http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/13/tech/fuel-cell-biomethanol-denmark/index.html


 * I'd recommend deletion at an WP:AFD discussion, as would many other experienced editors. Voceditenore (talk) 16:10, 22 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Sigh. Well, is there any way to keep the article as a stub or something along those lines? It would be nice to keep it as a vehicle for future growth. I may also be able to find a few references from Icelandic sources. What are your suggestions? The four links were the first few search results that turned up after the company's website. Cktt13 (talk) 16:36, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Suggested additions
This section is intended for content suggestions and parts under construction on which the respective creator would like comments.

Under Construction
Additions to History section For a time, CRI operated an experimental pump at one of N1's gas stations. http://www.mbl.is/frettir/innlent/2011/11/15/framleidsla_hafin_a_nyju_vistvaenu_eldsneyti/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cktt13 (talk • contribs) 17:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Methanol economy CRI's process is a major step towards the realization of the methanol economy, as it allows for the convenient storage of energy in methanol. From the standpoint of RM production, CO$2$ is a feedstock rather than an undesirable waste.

Usage concerns

Methanol can be corrosive to certain materials in some vehicles. Replacement parts may be necessary. It is also toxic to humans, requiring precautions in distribution. However, small amounts of methanol are easily broken down by the human body, and, with proper public awareness,.

Renewable nature

Most methanol derived by conventional means is produced using natural gas... Renewable methanol, renewable energy.. etc.

Toxicity

Methanol is toxic to humans, requiring precautions in distribution. However, low blends of methanol fuel are of comparable toxicity to gasoline. Small amounts of methanol are easily broken down by the human body.


 * founder         = Fridrik Jonsson, Art Shulenberger, Oddur Ingolfsson, and KC Tran


 * According to whom, is CRI's process a "major step"? As for the rest, it's just padding on the general subjects of methanol economy and methanol, which already have their own articles. Voceditenore (talk) 16:19, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * These sections are in need of a full makeover, which is why they aren't part of the main article. Cktt13 (talk) 16:40, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

How to keep the article as a draft
I suggest that if the creator seriously wants to keep the article and has more sources to add that they request Userfication (or do it themselves). This gives them as long as they need to get the article to a state where it's fit for article space. Cktt13: if you reply below this that you want it userfied, one of the participants can do this for you. Stuartyeates (talk) 19:48, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think that's a good solution. It gives him time to really work on it properly and incorporate anything he can find in Icelandic newspapers, etc. + the references I added above, which are at least published by sources unconnected to the company. In my experience, if it does go to AfD and gets deleted, it's much harder to post again and have it kept. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:27, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Please userfy it [UPDATE: please look over the sources below and make suggestions first. It would be nice to get some more feedback]. (Or how can I userfy it?) Where do I find and work on it once it's been userfied? Can I have it 'peer reviewed' before posting it again? Cktt13 (talk) 09:07, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, do you know of any articles on similar topics that are considered acceptable? Cktt13 (talk) 09:21, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I've found multiple references from the major Icelandic newspapers:

http://www.mbl.is/frettir/innlent/2011/11/15/framleidsla_hafin_a_nyju_vistvaenu_eldsneyti/ http://www.mbl.is/greinasafn/grein/1267719/

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=site:mbl.is+carbon+recycling&oq=site:mbl.is+carbon+recycling&gs_l=hp.3...111321.111543.2.111764.3.3.0.0.0.2.242.652.2-3.3.0...0.0...1c.YD-0SLYdz5I&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=e90d0913f918c708&biw=1366&bih=643

http://www.visir.is/grindavikurbaer-og-carbon-recycling-international-skrifa-undir-samning-samstarfssamning/article/201061770673

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=site:visir.is+carbon+recycling&oq=site:visir.is+carbon+recycling&gs_l=hp.3...51350.54183.1.54377.10.9.1.0.0.1.158.934.5j4.9.0...0.0...1c.Grm2gW-KHQk&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=e90d0913f918c708&biw=1366&bih=643

http://www.vb.is/frett/2609/

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=site:vb.is+carbon+recycling&oq=site:vb.is+carbon+recycling&gs_l=hp.3...35020.35852.3.36244.5.1.4.0.0.0.338.338.3-1.1.0...0.0...1c.P4pRAcb7WpA&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=e90d0913f918c708&biw=1366&bih=643

Here are some other references:

http://thinkgeoenergy.com/archives/6585

http://www.invest.is/news/1627/default.aspx

http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2008/04/29/iceland-offers-international-carbon-recycling/

http://www.640.is/is/frettir/landsvirkjun-og-carbon-recycling-international-undirrita-viljayfirlysingu-um-hagkvaemnisathugun-a-metanolverksmidju

http://mitsloan.mit.edu/cdo/employers.php - one of the college references for CRI's intern program (very short)

Related persons:

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=648092&ticker=RDL:CN&previousCapId=989923&previousTitle=REDLINE%20COMMUNICATIONS%20GROUP - Skuli Mogensen

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/person.asp?personId=25750164&privcapId=12453623&previousCapId=172182&previousTitle=COMBIMATRIX%20CORP - George Olah

http://ambassadorblogiceland.blogspot.com/2012_06_01_archive.html - US Ambassador Luis Arreaga

There are also references from other companies that have contracts with CRI (such as the Mannvit reference currently on CRI's main article page).

http://mannvit.is/Mannvit/Frettir/Allarfrettir2008/Frettinoll/458

http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/ALRE.L/key-developments/article/2322927 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cktt13 (talk • contribs) 10:18, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Some transcripts from the Icelandic Althingi that mention CRI:

http://www.althingi.is/altext/raeda/138/rad20091007T143613.html

http://www.althingi.is/raeda/138/rad20091020T175421.html

http://www.althingi.is/altext/raeda/138/rad20091105T151117.html

Appearances on Icelandic TV:

http://ruv.is/frett/eldsneyti-ur-utblaestri (not the full program, CRI not main focus of this particular snippet)

http://www.visir.is/section/MEDIA99&fileid=VTV38B39CA6-3BFE-4747-AAFD-01897487C19A (full program)

A Youtube video if you're interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPAZNB7Xk_s

Some more:

http://www.icelandreview.com/icelandreview/daily_news/?cat_id=16567&ew_0_a_id=372222

http://www.icelandreview.com/icelandreview/search/news/Default.asp?ew_0_a_id=371078

http://icelandreview.com/icelandreview/daily_life//Mainstreaming_the_Alternative_(ESA)_0_381513.news.aspx

http://grapevine.is/News/ReadArticle/Carbon-Recycling-In-Effect-Near-Blue-Lagoon

http://grapevine.is/Author/ReadArticle/Clean-Fuel-Production-Plant-Coming-to-Iceland

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=site:grapevine.is+carbon+recycling+international&oq=site:grapevine.is+carbon+recycling+international&gs_l=hp.3...3168.10210.1.10374.48.45.0.0.0.0.635.12098.0j19j9j7j5j4.44.0...0.0...1c.gkNO9c0JuX0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=da94c7937b83ceda&biw=664&bih=590 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cktt13 (talk • contribs) 10:10, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry if these references are insufficient (they are just from a few quick Google searches and some are based on press releases), but what do you think of them? I will do some actual research later this week. Cktt13 (talk) 10:09, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

http://www.visir.is/aettum-ad-framleida-okkar-eigid-eldsneyti/article/2012707039961 - Surya Prakash, visit from the Loker Hydrocarbon Research Institute

http://www.mbl.is/frettir/innlent/2012/06/30/kinversk_sendinefnd_kynnti_ser_metanolvinnslu/ - visit from the Chinese Academy of Sciences

Adding references
I added a few of the references above, but there are still many to go. I'll try to include more later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cktt13 (talk • contribs) 11:49, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Some of the latest ones you've added to the article are pretty decent, especially those from RÚV, Reuters, and Iceland Review (which is also a print publication). Some of the others are perhaps marginal (I haven't looked at them in detail) but I would have thought that those three are enough to keep the article if by any chance it went to an AFD discussion. You're doing a good job. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 11:27, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That's great to hear. I hope you continue to visit and provide feedback. Renewable fuels may not have anything to do with opera, but your support has been invaluable nonetheless. Cktt13 (talk) 13:34, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

= Even more references == http://www.theengineer.co.uk/sectors/energy-and-environment/in-depth/chemical-potential-turning-carbon-dioxide-into-fuel/1013459.article Cktt13 (talk) 20:38, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Silly
It seems silly to first burn the fossil fuel to convert it to electricity with 30% efficiency in a power plant, then take the resulting CO2 and use electricity to make H2 from water then methanol from H2 and CO2. A direct gasification thermal route from the fossil fuel (coal, oil, natural gas) with water can give the same methanol with less energy waste, and then the electricity you save by not having to electrolyze water to get hydrogen can be used as the electricity the fossil burning power plant would have generated. Consider this scenario: nuclear power is cheap, abundant, with fast neutron reactors being able to consume all radioactive waste, giving 100x more power per fuel than present moderated neutron reactors where 99% is wasted, but not much used because there is plenty of cheap fuel so 99% waste is still cheap; but in theory, there is enough nuclear fuel to supply the world's energy needs for thousands of years. However there is a problem: electricity can power trains, but not cars - we don't have good and cheap batteries. You can't run traintracks everywhere, where population density is low. So you would have to find a way to make car fuel from nuclear. Hydrogen is easy to make from water, but cannot be stored as a car fuel, so you need carbon to carry the hydrogen. To make hydrocarbon fuel, the nuclear plant would need to import carbon (coal), and make fuel with nuclear heat and nuclear hydrogen without burning any portion of the carbon, like it's done in conventional coal gasification/Fischer-Tropsch processes. Building a fossil fuel power station next to the nuclear power station just to get CO2 then making hydrocarbons(or methanol) from that CO2 would seem silly - the fossil powerplant is a superfluous operation. Once you have geothermal or nuclear power then that's what you use to make expensive electricity - use both the fossil power plant and geothermal/nuclear to make electric, and if you have surplus electric, stop the fossil plant whose fuel can be nicely stored, and withhold the carbon emissions with it. Unfortunately cars will keep saturating the atmosphere with carbon greenhouse gases unless we can directly scrub the 0.03% CO2 from the atmosphere, which is a difficult proposition, or have cars that generate pressurized CO2 in cylinders that are recycled at gas stations when refueling, instead of emitted through the tailpipe, which is another very expensive proposition not suited for present internal combustion engines(heavy large surface area condensers would be needed to cool the tailpipe gas), - or, instead of carbon, we could use nitrogen as the hydrogen carrier, but liquid ammonia is not a very good fuel (could be with catalysts cracking the H2 from it). Hydrazine, which would be a good fuel, is toxic and even more expensive to make. In the Ammonia_production article ammonia is sometimes made when there is excess electricity, for fertilizer, but with a fossil fuel power plant with excess electricity you simply halt the plant and store the hydrocarbon fuel, instead of running the plant, capturing the CO2(expensive), making hydrogen via electricity(expensive), then remaking a hydrocarbon fuel.

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Carbon recycling
It would be good IMO to have a more generic article at carbon recycling (currently a redlink).

See https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2011/08/110811-turning-carbon-emissions-into-fuel/ for some broader discussion of this. Andrewa (talk) 20:08, 15 December 2020 (UTC)