Talk:Caresse Crosby/Archives/2014

J.P. Morgan
Isn't it J.P. Morgan Jr. who should be mentioned in the article, as J.P. Morgan Sr. was dead by the time Harry and Polly were married?


 * If the death dates don't line up, I'd say yes. -- btphelps (talk) (contribs) 07:14, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Recent edits
User TheCormac asserts that "Herminie Cadolle [was] universally credited as the inventor of the modern bra." I'd like to see some sources for this. The facts remain that Mary Phelps Jacob received the first modern patent for a bra that looks most like the modern bra. Perhaps this is an issue of semantics -- bra-like devices were patented under the corset category.

Many of the recent edits by user Robina Fox do something to improve the clarity of the article, like the information on Harry surviving the ambulance hit by artillery, but since they do not provide sources, could be of dubious value. For example, I do not understand the rationale for removing the section--


 * "Harry sent a telegram home to Boston: "PLEASE SELL 10,000 WORTH OF STOCK. WE HAVE DECIDED TO LEAD A MAD AND EXTRAVAGANT LIFE." So their lifestyle was initially financed by selling the bonds and stocks whose dividends were previously the basis of Harry's income."

I'd like to see some background on the reason for these edits. -- btphelps (talk) (contribs) 07:14, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Section Titles
I've edit the titles of the sections. In my opinion the whole article could do with a rewrite, as it's filled with too many mundane details, but in lieu of that, at least now the titles don't sound like summaries and more like, well, titles. Change them if you can think of something better, but please, please don't change them back. They sounded terribly un-encyclopaedic. Sumo Sniper (talk) 02:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Opus Pistorum
The last paragraph of this section (esp. "Perhaps it was a release for Caresse just to take love as casual lust and let it go at that.") is speculation and/or synthesis of other work rather than a summary of published research.

Also, more citations are needed. Even the citations that exist (to Nin's Delta of Venus) don't fully support the claims about Caresse accepting Henry's proposal and writing Opus Pistorum.

Szarka (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:24, 25 May 2009 (UTC).

Patent for the Brassiere
While interesting, the last two paragraphs of this section contained material about bras generally that has no specific connection to Phelps' contribution. I removed them and instead added a link to the History of brassieres article.

Szarka (talk)

Move article to Caresse Crosby?

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:31, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Mary Phelps Jacob → Caresse Crosby — Best have this move discussed first. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:53, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The subject of the article was known by several names. Named Mary Phelps Jacob by per parents, she went by "Polly Jacob" most of her youth. When she married the first time, she became "Polly Peabody" from 1915-1922. From 1922-1925 she was briefly "Polly Crosby." For the rest of her life (until 1970) she was known as Caresse Crosby.


 * Given that Mary Phelps Jacob is her maiden name, but not ever the name she used publicly, and that for the majority of her adult and professional life she was known as Caresse Crosby, I think this article should be moved to Caresse Crosby.


 * Her notability is two-fold: First, as a 19 year old, she was the first to patent a design for the modern brassiere. She didn't do much with the patent and sold it before age 22. That fact is associated with her legal (full) name before she married. Secondly, and more notably, she took the name Caresse at age 33 and with her husband Harry Crosby founded the Black Sun Press that published the early works of many struggling writers, including James Joyce, Kay Boyle,  Ernest Hemingway,  Hart Crane,  D. H. Lawrence,  Rene Crevel,  T. S. Eliot,  and Ezra Pound.


 * By way of reference, Google returns 10,100 hits for "Mary Phelps Jacob" and 62,000 for "Caresse Crosby."


 * I posted a request for comments on the move on the Biography Portal talk page on March 18, and no one replied nor objected before the request was archived. Given the overwhelming number of references to her as Caresse Crosby, I would like to get this article moved there. I need admin assistance since there is a redirect at Caresse Crosby to Mary Phelps Jacob. Thanks. -- btphelps (talk) (contribs) 09:45, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Seems like the greater portion of her public life was conducted under the proposed move name, Caresse Crosby. I support the move proposal. Binksternet (talk) 00:43, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Citing remarkable facts
I think it's appropriate to cite remarkable facts in the intro even if also cited elsewhere. Not all readers will read the entirety of an article, nor have reason to expect citations elsewhere in articles generally, nor necessarily know specifically where else to look for them. ENeville (talk) 21:38, 10 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree in some circumstances this may be true, thus the one citation that was present in the lede already. Thanks for taking time to check the body for the citation and copying it rather than leaving it for someone else to clean up. -- btphelps (talk) (contribs) 06:09, 11 June 2010 (UTC)