Talk:Carl Johnson (Grand Theft Auto)

CJ'S myspace
Whats wrong with putting CJ'S myspace there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sean mc sean (talk • contribs) 15:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not his myspace. It's something that some guy made up.  There's no information there that could possibly be relevant to the article.  The only reason to link to it is to give whoever made it some publicity or because you find it personally amusing that there's a myspace page purporting to be by Carl Johnson. Croctotheface 18:02, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, it even incorrectly details his location: it says "Ganton, CA," instead of "SA" or whatever the official abbreviation would be. ♣ Klptyzm  Chat wit me  §   Contributions ♣ 03:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

It just says that he lives in the United States. - Sean mc sean —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sean mc sean (talk • contribs) 03:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Sean, why are you persisting in reverting to include the link (and reverting my other edits to other parts of the article) when it's clear that you are alone in your opinion? Are you familiar with WP:3RR?  You have violated the rule on this article.  Also, you should sign your posts with four tildes, like this: ~ . Croctotheface 03:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 1. I did not know that rule ok? 2. I think it should stay because its just a joke but it does not have to be official to be there, And 3. YOYOYO! 03:31, 29 January 2007 (UTC) THERE! - Sean mc sean
 * OK, I'm going to assume good faith and assume that you're new here, so I'll explain this in detail. WP:EL, the guideline governing external links on Wikipedia, holds that Myspace pages should generally not be linked to IF THE PAGE IS OFFICIAL, meaning maintained by the person the article is about.  In those cases, it's possible that such a page would have relevant information that could not otherwise be found on Wikipedia, and yet the guideline still says that such links should generally be avoided.  The page you want to link to has absolutley no relevant information whatsoever.  You have not given a single reason to link to it (unless the fact that you believe it should be linked to is a compelling reason, which I do not believe it is), you've just reverted three other editors to put it back, repeatedly, in violation of the 3 revert rule.  The page does not belong and it should be removed. Croctotheface 03:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It IS CJ'S myspace!!! Sean mc Sean 03:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * But you previously said that it's a joke. Veinor (talk to me) 03:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Only because CJ is fake. Sean mc Sean 03:57, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Is the myspace endorsed by the creators of the game? Veinor (talk to me) 03:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Even if the page were endorsed by Rockstar, WP:EL still says it should be avoided. This particular page adds NOTHING of value.  It has ZERO value as a link.  There is no content there whatsoever.  There is, therefore, no reason to link to it. Croctotheface 04:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * And why would "CJ" forget the state where he lives? It's posted as "Ganton, CA" on his site. ♣ Klptyzm  Chat wit me  §   Contributions ♣ 04:34, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, you can't play that "I didn't know" stuff. You were warned, yet you persisted to do so. ♣ Klptyzm  Chat wit me  §   Contributions ♣ 04:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Evidence that CJ is "co-leader" of the gang?
Lines about "co-leadership" have appeared a lot in articles related to the game, but I don't think there's any evidence it's true. CJ certainly becomes well-respected in the gang as he puts in a lot of work, but he was also away from the gang for five years, after he left San Andreas on awful terms with his brother. I don't know of any mention in the game that CJ is actually calling the shots. He has his brother's ear, obviously, but that is not the same as having a title. Croctotheface 21:14, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * CJ would probably take over Grove ST. Familys if Sweet died. - Sean mc Sean 02:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That's just your opinion; it doesn't prove anything. Besides, even if it were true, it wouldn't make him co-leader, just next in line. Croctotheface 04:18, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * If someone can provide undeniable evidence that Carl is the co-leader of GSF, then they should present it here and then you may change it. .:Alex:. 18:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly. And it's about damn time someone added a comment about that. I don't know why I didn't do it. ♣ Klptyzm  Chat wit' me  §   Contributions ♣ 19:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits that I reverted
I reverted Sean mc sean's recent edits because they described events in the game using the past tense, which is contrary to the Manual of Style, particularly WP:WAF. I would encourage Sean or someone else to readd some of the expanded information that his edit introduced in such a way that complies with Wikipedia's guidelines. Croctotheface 01:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC) Upon closer inspection, these edits were a blanket revert, spanning 37 edits, back to the first time Sean tried to introduce the Myspace page. (Diff) I find this rather disturbing. Croctotheface 11:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

C.J
Hey does anyone know what happens to carl johnson after san andreas, is he still alive by 2000 etc? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.43.29.130 (talk) 16:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No. Also, read the above template. ♣ Klptyzm  Chat wit' me  §   Contributions ♣ 16:58, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Wow big deal what about it? it was only a question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.43.29.130 (talk) 23:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Who made a big deal about it? I answered you question and merely pointed out the above template suggests to not make any "forum-like" posts. ♣ Klptyzm  Chat wit' me  §   Contributions ♣ 23:48, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Given that it's relative to the character and that it's suggested by Rockstar themselves (therefore would be canon) I don't see how it's a "forum-like" (sic) post. The implication made by Dan Houser is that most of the other characters in the GTA universe are dead by the time of GTA IV and there is graffiti suggesting that Carl, Claude, Tommy, Vic (et al) are deceased. However, since GTA IV takes place in a different universe to San Andreas, it's all speculative. Nevertheless, it is still relative to the CJ since this page (messy though it is) descriptive of the character "Carl Johnson". (118.210.27.145 (talk) 13:54, 3 November 2011 (UTC))

Recent minor edit war
I don't like to edit war, but User:Savoie's changes really puzzle me. Young Maylay's article is at, well, Young Maylay. I don't understand why Savoie is so inclined to want to use "Chris Bellard" instead. It is certainly more than acceptable to use the stage name of rappers as their primary identities, and it happens all the time at WP and in the mainstream press. Second, THIS article is at "Carl 'CJ' Johnson". I can't imagine someone being confused about what "CJ" means here, but if we agree that there is some confusion, then there should be a move request for the article. Third, we should avoid undisplayed comments wherever possible. Considering that there is actually a legitimate claim that Carl left for Liberty City in 1987, I don't actually see why we should insist on the language that's there now. However, even if we agree that "late 1980s" is essential to use while "1987" is totally wrong, I don't see that change being made frequently enough to create a problem that needs this kind of message. These edits are, in my opinion, borderline disruptive because they do not improve the page, and I would invite Savoie to discuss them here rather than continue to edit war. Croctotheface 17:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Excuse my paranoia, but it's highly possible this editor is someone's puppet. ♣ Klptyzm  Chat wit' me  §   Contributions ♣ 22:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Re:Excuse my paranoia

 * You're a sockpuppet! ...of Craxy, and if you continue to harm Wikipedia, I'll tell Jimbo Wales to ban you. (I could have easily had you blocked yesterday, but some fool reverted it) And of "Craxy", well in turn... you could be a direct sockpuppet of Vertigo and Willy on Wheels (the most recent of them all). There's no need for you to do any harm to other users. I took my name from Evan Drake Savoie, the killer of Craig Sorger. So back off "BishopTutu", it's not your problem... Savoie 10:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This isn't the place to discuss this. Also, Jimbo Wales wouldn't ban me when I haven't dont anything wrong. If you went to him, you would probably end up gettin' YOURSELF banned. And I really like how you accuse me of being a puppet with no evidence whatsoever. ♣ Klptyzm  Chat wit' me  §   Contributions ♣ 13:14, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Recent minor edit war (continued)
Please continue here. Savoie 10:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC) (Remove this text when you have posted in this section.)
 * [Personal attack removed] Savoie 10:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

CJ & 50 Cent
Did they call Carl CJ because of 50 cent being called Curtis Jackson so they had the same initials? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)
 * We can't say. It hasn't been stated by anyone. ♣ <b style="color:blue;">Klptyzm</b>  Chat wit' me  §   Contributions ♣ 14:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

And Rockstar asked 50 cent to do the voice over for CJ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)
 * You can't source that. Only 50 Cent said that he was going to be in the game; Rockstar said something differently. Plus, this discussion isn't going towards any article relevant, anyways. ♣ <b style="color:blue;">Klptyzm</b>  Chat wit' me  §   Contributions ♣ 17:28, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Klptyzm is right: this really has no relevance to the article. Let's just say they are his initials, and are used as a nickname, with the requisite quotation marks.  The correlation with 50 Cent's initials is not verifiable. Eganio (talk) 12:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Murder prior to game
I think the murder of Beverly Johnson is only seen in The Introduction because it should be noted that it was before the actual game and only mentioned about. Does anybody else? "Was" is the right word to use, don't you think? Be free to post your replies below this post. 172.209.130.204 11:24, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The manual of style states that fiction should be written in present tense. I agree that "Carl's mother is killed" makes it sound like it happens during the game; perhaps "Carl's mother has been killed" would be better.  Dbam  Talk/Contributions 14:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Dbam is right. The entire storyline is fictional.  It may be appropriate to use the past tense to describe something of that happened well before the start of the game, but not something that by all accounts happened days before Carl touches down in LS.  I don't think "has been" is the answer, though.  Some sort of modifier "is killed just prior to the start of the game's storyline", "who is shot in The Introduction", something like that, just not "was". Croctotheface 18:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Anti-Hero?
Is Cj an actual anti-hero? Reading from what Wikipedia describes he seems more like an anti-villain. I supposes it's all a thin line. 71.247.181.235 14:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * He does heroic things but lacks some traditional heroic characteristics. That's the definition as I understand it. Croctotheface 14:49, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was going nowhere with the anti-villain thing. I just regard CJ as the villain who just happens to be the protagonist of the game. I've never actually considered (and still don't) him any type of a hero till I saw it suggested on here. 71.247.181.235 14:59, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Some of the things CJ does could be seen as villainous, I suppose, but the main arc of the story is about him doing what he needs to do to achieve "good" results for himself, his family, and his friends. A lot of the time, the test is to ask whether the targets of his "bad" deeds are morally better or worse than CJ himself.  Madd Dogg's manager, security team, the cops in some missions, the military guys...there's a good cae to be made that they're relatively innocent.  However, his main targets: the Ballas and Vagos, Tenpenny, Ryder, the Leones, and so forth--they are clearly morally worse than CJ himself.  Croctotheface 15:12, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Original Research
The personality section I recently added to the article was deleted because it constituted original research. While I agree with this assessment, I feel that a few citations would fix the problem and therefore have a place in the article. What do you guys think? Would it still be OR if I cited specific instances in the game? I am fully prepared to back up every assertion I made and will do so if necessary. I just need to know your opinions before I decide to take any further action. Beeftony 22:27, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What you propose doing is the definition of original research. Croctotheface 22:36, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not just original research either, it's also point-of-view. Citing specific instances is useless because any analysis is simply an opinion that others may disagree with.  It's fine to describe CJ's actions, but it should be left to the reader to draw their own conclusions about his personality.  See Wp:npov.  Dbam  Talk/Contributions 23:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Still, I have to ask: was my contribution deleted because it constituted original research, or because you disagreed with it? Just curious. Beeftony 05:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It was removed purely for policy reasons, whether I or anybody else disagrees with the actual content or not is irrelevant. Personally, I thought it was, for the most part, a fair reflection, but I found one or two statements questionable: is CJ really a hedonist?; does he really hate all police officers?  And this is my point, some may agree with those things, while others may disagree with the things I agree with—it all boils down to each person's point of view.  Dbam  Talk/Contributions 19:12, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

The prologue in "past tense"
WHAT THE HELL?! The prologue happened before the game. We reverted it back to past tense. Are we right? If you look carefully at the prologue on Tommy Vercetti's page, it's all in past tense, eg "He *was* locked up for 15 years". Think carefully and then post a reply below. Kind Regards, 172.207.169.191 12:28, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've already corrected the Tommy Vercetti page to preserve present tense. This page should also use present tense, and things like CJ's mother's recent death should be in the perfect aspect tense, as Dbam suggested here, e.g. something like "Carl's mother has been murdered".  Or we can refer to the murder as a recent event using the present tense, like Croctotheface suggested under the same heading. Eganio (talk) 12:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's fiction, so it should be written in present tense. Refer here for more info and proof. ♣ <b style="color:blue;">Klptyzm</b>  Chat wit' me  §   Contributions ♣ 05:15, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Damn... kok up all over again. -- ₪  SETH GECKO  ¥ Give me a conversation   ƒ   My Contributions  '''¥ ₪ —Preceding comment was added at 12:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Spoilers
There's some major spoilers here about the game, can we put a spoilers tag in, or remove the story related details that arent directly related to CJ? TR (talk) 18:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Character list in this article
I'm not sure that the issue, as Alex suggested in his edit summary, is that this is a list rather than prose. I think the issue is that we already have an article that discusses the game's characters. Doing it here as well would be redundant, and relating the characters specifically to CJ would probably have too much original analysis. Croctotheface (talk) 15:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was kinda getting at that as well (of course you can only say so much in an edit summary). It seems too in-universe (and getting to be original research) and unnecessary considering the "Lists of characters" pretty much goes into all possible detail on them. I'll admit I was quite bold and a little hasty in the sudden blanket removal of those lists though.  .: Alex  :.  15:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you were right to revert them. They were offered in good faith, but they don't improve the article.  Croctotheface (talk) 15:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Sucessfulness
Can someone add the fact that Carl did secret epic government task? Like flying attack jets, flying attack helicopters, destroying government property, stealing a billion worth (Don't remember how much) object (The jetpack) and such Thanks PS : I'd do it myself but I'm not the best explainer and grammar user —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.11.17.164 (talk) 09:07, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

So we're just going to ignore the fact that Tommy Vercetti had his own drug empire and was the most dominant figure in Vice City? Don't get me wrong, CJ was successful, but Tommy practically owned the city in comparison to CJ. (118.210.27.145 (talk) 13:43, 3 November 2011 (UTC))

Pic
Someone should get an image of CJ on here. -- 92.9.133.70 (talk) 22:06, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

CJ's Birthday date
Carl Johnson's Date of birth is never mentioned in the game ever along with most characters,Not even dates during the game are mentioned aside from the text at the start of the game stating it is 1992.It is alluded to the idea in the cutscene of the mission "Grove 4 Life" that he maybe around 23 or 24 due to a comment his brother Sweet makes but it is never stated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Styps (talk • contribs) 19:53, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Appearance order
The Introduction was released after the game (it came on DVD with the second edition released following the Hot Coffee incident, making it his second appearance. His first appearance would therefor be the same as his first game. Spartan198 (talk) 20:53, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 28 January 2015
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 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved. ☺ ·  Salvidrim!   ·  &#9993;  15:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Carl "CJ" Johnson → Carl Johnson (Grand Theft Auto) – Consistency. None of the other GTA protagonist articles list the character's nickname(s) in conjunction with their full name in the article title (e.g. Tommy Vercetti is not titled "Thomas "Tommy" Vercetti", Toni Cipriani is not titled as "Antonio "Toni" Cipriani", Victor Vance is not titled as "Victor "Vic" Vance" etc.) Alza08 (talk) 04:33, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Support: You've made some great examples, and I agree with you. I see no problem to move the page to Carl Johnson. -- Rhain1999  (talk to me) 06:38, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Support: For the same reasons as Alza08 and Rhain1999. JayJ47 (talk) 06:48, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Support Same as above.  Nevermore27  (talk) 06:51, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Support as above. Egsan Bacon (talk) 17:11, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Support per above and WP:NICKNAME, which says not to insert nicknames in quotes in the middle of a name. —BarrelProof (talk) 20:58, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Support - Reasons above.Rayukk (talk) 23:49, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Support proposed move but strongly oppose moving to Carl Johnson . Zarcadia (talk) 19:21, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
 * That's why we suggest moving to Carl Johnson (Grand Theft Auto). -- Rhain1999  (talk to me) 23:06, 30 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140416192103/http://planetgrandtheftauto.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Articles.Detail&id=18 to http://planetgrandtheftauto.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Articles.Detail&id=18
 * Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/6CjsDWP3D?url=http://www.ugo.com/games/paging-uwe-boll-video-game-characters-who-need-their-own-movies to http://www.ugo.com/games/paging-uwe-boll-video-game-characters-who-need-their-own-movies

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Infobox
It's just that a fictional character without a bit of "fictional profile" in his infobox is quiete useless. It must briefly summarize basic information on the character, it's just that, and "Metal Gear" character infobox fits pretty well. Kratos is just an example, and saying that "it's for "Metal Gear" characters only" is without sense, that was the point. Adaptation is something that matters. Lone Internaut (talk) 04:58, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think that adding his alias, nationality, and affiliations provides the reader with any important information; his alias is mentioned in the lead, his nationality is totally irrelevant to the character, and his in-universe affiliations are unimportant (and it could be argued that more characters are added to that list). Adding a fictional profile to Kratos or Solid Snake makes sense, as they both appear in several games and spin-offs; Kratos' species and affiliation is pretty important to his character, while Solid Snake's character is complicated and intricate. Carl Johnson, however, only appears in one game, and his fictional profile is basically trivia. – Rhain  ☔ 00:19, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

In-game screenshots
Can I ask,how is adding a screenshot of the character in the game unnecessary? Kabelo Lesooana (talk) 05:24, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The article already features artwork of CJ, so an in-game screenshot would likely be a violation of WP:NFCC (unless it can be justified in the fair use rationale). – Rhain  ☔ (he/him) 05:28, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * @Rhain okay Thanks Kabelo Lesooana (talk) 06:07, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Quick Facts section update
Should living statuses,religion,children,partners(relationships) be included in the quick facts section? Kabelo Lesooana (talk) 15:58, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 13 March 2023
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;">
 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. No prejudice against a separate nomination to move to CJ (Grand Theft Auto) or similar, however. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 21:12, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

– Per WP:COMMONNAME. 176.88.80.110 (talk) 17:59, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Carl Johnson (Grand Theft Auto) → Carl Johnson
 * Carl Johnson → Carl Johnson (disambiguation)
 * Comment do you mean WP:PRIMARYTOPIC?—blindlynx 19:08, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes. 176.88.80.110 (talk) 17:31, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Your reasoning is unconvincing. Why should this specific (and fictional) Carl Johnson (who is referred to in the game mostly as CJ) get the main page for the name, while others are relegated to disambiguation? 〜 Festucalex • talk • contribs 19:26, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Festucalex. There are nine entries listed upon the Carl Johnson disambiguation page, with no indication that the renown of the video game character is of such immense proportions that it dwarfs the combined notability of the remaining eight entries. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:45, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Weak support. I was originally going to oppose per the above votes but, after looking at WP:DPT again, the character definitely seems to meet most principles: it has the highest pageviews (|Carl_H._Johnson|Carl_M._Johnson|Carl_L._Johnson|Carl_J._Johnson|Carl_C._Johnson|Carl_Johnson_(athlete)|Carl_Johnson_(soccer)|Carl_Johnson_(American_football) and it's not even close), the highest traffic from the disambiguation page (basically 100%), and the most incoming links (179; the next highest is 167, 115, then under 60). The only factor I'm hesitant to cite is usage in sources, since online searches will almost certainly favour the modern video game character by default. Of course, these aren't absolute factors—and with eight other entries, there's a high bar to be considered "primary"—but I'm leaning towards CJ being the primary topic. – Rhain  ☔ (he/him) 02:00, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose pageviews are not indication that this fictional game character outweighs the long term existence of all real Carl Johnsons combined. In ictu oculi (talk)
 * Note that IP is a first edit. Welcome to en.wp and many advantages to having an account. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:59, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose But not for the reasons others are citing. While he is the clear primary topic for "Carl Johnson", his far more common name is "CJ", so he should be moved to CJ (Grand Theft Auto) instead per WP:COMMONNAME. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 13:07, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The bar for a fictional character to take primary topic status when there are real people by the same name has always been set very high. Harry Potter crosses it; Carl Johnson does not. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:21, 15 March 2023 (UTC)