Talk:Carl Orff

Catullus etc
There should be a link from this entry to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catullus, where the roman poet who inspired Carmina Catulli is presented. Or perhaps from the page about Carmina Catulli, although that is just a stub.

necesito el texto en español Ich hatte gern das text auf deustch Ineed the scrip iin english

you speak multiple languages. good for you. you want a cookie or a medal?

His connections to the Nazis were most likely not as strong as suggested in the article. According to the German version of Wikipedia and other sources he went on to win the Bundesverdienstkreuz (1971), was buried in a semi-royal graveyard.... honours I'm sure a Nazi composer would not have recieved in modern Germany.

Like many in Germany (and trust me, I'm NOT trying to find excuses) he hardly had a choice but to do as he was told. The fate of his close friend shows what may have happened to him had he simply (for fear of his own life) refused to comply. I strongly doubt he had much in common with the ideology of the Nazis at all. Call him an opportunist or a coward but it is wrong to brand him a supporter of the Nazis as this suggests many, many evil things.

=>In this german text he is not described as a nazi, but very well as someone who cooperates to push his carrier. which means he had the choice of not doing so. (but then I must confess I'm not an expert, so I cannot judge about the quality of the linked article.) There it is also said that when he claimed to have participated in the Weiße Rose after the war, it was because before this the Americans wouldn't allow his music to be played, which means again, to cleanse his image and push his carrier.

I think you are right. The linked article refers to the work of Michael H. Kater, who wrote two articles on the subject ("Carl Orff im dritten Reich" in Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte vol. 43, 1995; "Carl Orff. Man of Legend" in Kater, Composers of the Nazi Era, Oxford University Press, 2000). Kater tends to push his conclusions a bit over the top, but his research is thorough and his view on Orff's role in the Nazi-Germany is hard to invalidate. Gerrit Maas 15:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

My question is whether Wikipedia should reference such a badly written, internet article which doesn't even show its sources. Would it not be better to reference something like this - http://www.orff-zentrum.de/carlorff_biographie_uk.asp Hew 03:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * As to Carl Orff's sympathies, I have yet to see one single person who's done any research at all adduce a single piece of evidence that he was sympathetic to Nazism. Michael Kater and Fred K. Prieberg have been very critical of Orff, and they both said he was not sympathetic to Nazism (e.g., Prieberg 2009, 5396–97; Kater 2000, 119; Kater, The Twisted Muse (Oxford University Press, 1997), 192). As early as 15 he was writing works in which militarism, authority, religious dogma, etc. are portrayed as cruel, capricious, and harmful, which suggests a world view incompatible with totalitarianism.
 * Regarding Michael H. Kater's research more generally, there's been a thorough response just published by Oliver Rathkolb, which I've added to the references. Unfortunately, in my own work on Carl Orff I've found that there were numerous problems with Kater's. For example, Kater 2000, 142–43 claims that Orff "made no attempt to resume the relationship" with Erich Katz after WWII, but see Davenport 1995 and the finding aid for the Katz collection at Regis University: not only did Orff and Katz have an extensive correspondence from 1952 to Katz's death in 1973, but Orff is the one who initiated it (letter dated 26 June 1952).
 * This brings me to: "There it is also said that when he claimed to have participated in the Weiße Rose after the war, it was because before this the Americans wouldn't allow his music to be played, which means again, to cleanse his image and push his carrier." — This is flat-out untrue. Carl Orff was not blacklisted, certainly not at the time Jenkins was trying to help him/convince him to help the Americans. See Rathkolb 2021, 132–136. Here Rathkolb quotes a letter dated 7 January 1946, a couple months before Orff had undergone the psychological evaluation at the ICD screening center. Here's my translation of the first part: "Since you presently have no interest in appearing in public, neither as conductor nor to speak [publicly] in any way, and you have not yet decided whether or not you want to accept a teaching [position], i.e. [if] you want to dedicate yourself only to your compositions, you really do not need a license."
 * Kater quoted a later portion of this letter, in which Jenkins was encouraging Orff to find a way to say that he'd been an active resister of the Nazis (furthering Kater's narrative that Orff needed to lie to save himself). He did not quote the portion in which Jenkins told Orff that he actually didn't need to do anything at all. Jenkins wanted him to get the further clearance since he was hoping Orff would take an Intendant position that he didn't want; Orff's official denazification report notes he'd already turned it down. Also, Kater mentioned a 1960 interview in which Orff discussed Huber and the Scholl siblings, but didn't mention that the article very explicitly states that Orff was never himself a member of the resistance. I regret to say that I've heard others find similar distortions elsewhere in Kater's work. AskohlerOpus111 (talk) 08:17, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Postscript: I just read in Oliver Rathkolb's book that Orff had not yet turned down the Intendant position when Jenkins sent the aforementioned letter, but in my opinion such a job was sufficiently unappealing to him (he initially said no before reconsidering) that he would have felt the need to concoct an elaborate story for the sake of getting it. AskohlerOpus111 (talk) 05:26, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Did Orff suck?
This article seems to have been sabotaged: "Carl Orff who sucked real bad refused to speak about his past. What is known is that"  These words appear in the biography section, but do not appear when I try to edit the page. Someone may want to do something about this. :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.250.121.116 (talk) 20:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

Pedagogical Work
"Schulwerk" translates to "school work." "Musik für Kinder" translates to "music for children."

yea...of course...

Plagiarized?
There's this Nobuo Uematsu song in Final Fantasy VIII called (I think) Tears of the Moon that sounds A LOT like Orff's O Fortuna. I'd be surprised if Nobuo didn't do a little stealing. Anyone agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.157.110 (talk) 21:34, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

If you find out, put it on the article O Fortuna.Polypipe Wrangler (talk) 15:53, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Even worse is what Aaron Copeland is alleged to have done. -- Brothernight (talk) 06:25, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Military service in WWI?
I added the category "German military personnel of World War I" yesterday, then saw this:

 02:32, 31 March 2008 FordPrefect42 (Talk | contribs) (10,983 bytes) (revert - certainly not _military_ personnel, read the article) 

I did read the article, and it states the following: ''Moser's Musik Lexicon states that Orff studied at the Munich Academy of Music until 1914. He then served in the military during World War I.''

His WWI military service is referred to here and here.

It looks like he didn't join the German army immediately upon the outbreak of the war, but obv. that does not mean he wasn't in the army at all.

Was this revert made in error? KConWiki (talk) 12:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I admit that I misread the category as "... of World War II" in the first place. On the other hand, I think adding this cetegory would be somewhat misleading. Neither did Orff notably contribute to warfare, nor was he a volunteer member of the army. He simply fulfilled his military service, which was (and still is) mandatory in Germany, so practically every male German living at that time would have to be added to that category. Orff's short-term military service did not exceed the year of 1914 due to serious health problems. --FordPrefect42 (talk) 23:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * However, there are plenty of American baseball players (Bill Conroy (catcher)) and actors (Jack Klugman) and congressmen (Henry Hyde) whose WWII service has gotten them put into such categories, even if they didn't make out-of-the-ordinary military contributions. I'd like to put the category back. KConWiki (talk) 01:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Orff was forced into military servitude in August 1917, and was only in the battlefield a short time before the horrendous injury. I've updated the citations, and I'll make a change to give that date. AskohlerOpus111 (talk) 09:55, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Jewish Grandparent, Fascist Aesthetics, Role as Educator, Continuing Influence
I strongly wish that Phaidon would have produced a biography of Orff along the lines of their excellent treatments of other 20th century composers. Until then, it seems that Michael Kater's "The Twisted Muse"(Oxford) seems to be the best english-language resource I've found. It would be a shame if the chance to interview Orff's contemporaries has expired along with the composer.

Much of the controversy over Orff's relationship with the NSDAP seems to be answered by Kamen's assertion that he had a Jewish grandmother (mentioned in the first paragraph of "Jewish Flight and Exile" on page 105 of the softcover edition of "The Twisted Muse"). Kamen doesn't address the degree to which this was known at the time, but it seems to explain a great deal of why he would face the same "gray" categorization from both the NSDAP and, later, the occupying Allies.

Also key to Orff's legacy is the unique role his music holds in what might be called Fascist aesthetics. Of course, this is incredibly subjective, and not without its contradictions. But, in my opinion, his music has more than a few parallels to the massive scale and clean lines of Albert Speer, the epic cinematography of Riefenstahl (sp?), the neo-classical pretensions of the Italian supremacists, and other touchstones of what may be very broadly considered to be Fascist aesthetics. The degree to which these aesthetics contrasted with the anti-modern bent of NSDAP authorities also makes for an interesting discussion on its own. .

Additionally, it would be nice to see his role as an educator given more attention. Orff didn't just help establish an entirely new approach to musical education - he developed an entirely original system of modular percussion instruments and a revolutionary approach to education of the very young. Also seldom mentioned is the degree to which these two roles overlapped - the same man who created an approachable system for the young to experience music and dance also used a completely original syntax in his scoring, with use of exotic percussion instruments almost never seen in any other score. A revolutionary approach to the orchestra itself - the likes of which are possibly only found in the operas of Wagner, who takes the brass section to similar extremes as Orff takes percussion - makes for an interesting counterpart to his revolutionary approach to education.

I would also posit that the fact that the opening notes of "Carmina" have been rewritten countless times for promotional spots, films, etc, speaks to the resonance of these aesthetics in our contemporary world - one might suggest that the promotional presentations of uniforms, choreographed violence and manufactured epic quality of professional sports owes more than a little to the Fascists of the thirties, and that the fact that rewrites (or the occasional actual use of a clip) of "O Fortuna" are frequently used for this kind of subject matter is, in my opinion, interesting, even if it goes far, far beyond the appropriate subject matter for a biographical excerpt. 71.106.176.234 (talk) 07:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

New film from Tony Palmer
I don't know how wide the distribution is yet, but I saw Tony Palmer's "O Fortuna! - The true story of Carl Orff and Carmina Burana" at the Barbican Centre and it's got a decent amount of information regarding his life, including interviews with 3 of his wives and his biographer. Not to editorialize too much, but the impression given in the film was that his relationship with the Nazi party was merely one of convenience (in the sense that he didn't care enough about politics to be morally for or against them). He seemed to want to avoid rocking the boat (probably especially due to his part-Jewish ancestry). - IstvanWolf (talk) 22:17, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article doesn't merit a B rating; it has too many basic facts about Orff missing, or sketchily covered, and is unduly focused on Carmina and his alleged Nazi connections. My full review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page.

Two abbeys confused here
The article refers to the 'Benedictine monastery of Beuron'. Beuron is a famous Augustinian monastery near Sigmaringen, but surely the original manuscript of the Carmina burana was found in the library of Benediktbeuern, Bavaria. Norvo (talk) 17:15, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You are right. Beuron and Beuern (short for Benediktbeuern) are quite different locations. I have corrected this. --FordPrefect42 (talk) 10:07, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Great example of successful use of the wiki process! (I'd never heard of Beuron nor Beuern, and would not likely have caught that, even tho my German is good enuf for me to speculate that [B]euern is also the medieval ancestor of modern German Bayern; my sloppy Yank pronunciation may well have better matched -ron than -ern for decade after decade.) --Jerzy•t 04:12, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Military history
Why does someone think this is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject? Deipnosophista (talk) 15:32, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Also sprach Zarathustra
This article asserts that Orff wrote this piece, while all other references I have found so far within WP appear to point to Richard Strauss including the disambiguation page for Also sprach Zarathustra. I am pretty sure the record label on my old Star Wars album credited Strauss. And supposedly it was written in 1896, when Orff would have been one-year old.

Perhaps the reference to Also sprach Zarathustra ought to be removed from the Orff bio? --Grandpa jlc (talk) 06:30, 30 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The famous Also sprach Zarathustra is indeed by R. Strauss. Orff also wrote a piece with that name, as did a few others; see Thus Spoke Zarathustra. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:01, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Orff's is actually just called Zarathustra (though it took me a while to notice that...). The manuscript is digitized at the Bayerische Staatsbibliothek in Munich; unfortunately, one has to go there to see it, even so. AskohlerOpus111 (talk) 10:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Late then or later late
Explain, please, this sentence: "Wracked by guilt, Orff would later write a letter to his late friend Huber, imploring him for forgiveness." Did Orff not know Huber was dead? If Huber wasn't dead yet, then he wasn't "late"--unless we really mean Huber had been Orff's friend of late (or maybe that Huber never arrived on time). TheScotch (talk) 11:37, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Now . -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:28, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Still unclear! He wrote to Huber when H was in prison or what??David Couch (talk) 05:45, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
 * By the implicit chronology, yes, this must have been the case. Unfortunately, both of the cited sources appear to have evaporated into hyperspace. Unless a fresh source can be found, this sentence will have to be deleted.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:24, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I have found a reasonably well-documented source and amended the text accordingly. There is a link to a PDF of that (German) source for anyone who wants more details. FWIW, I have also found several other sources reporting on Tony Palmer's biopic, which appears to have been the catalyst for some (possibly unjustified) extrapolations made by journalists reviewing the film. I suspect that the now-evaporated items from the Sunday Times and the Independent may have been of that same stripe.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:28, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I've edited the page giving new sources. Jerome Kohl is spot-on in saying that the extrapolations are unjustified (and I don't just say that in solidarity due to our similar surnames :-) ). As I commented in the section below this one, the confusion is the result of Tony Palmer's film being entirely unclear on this point. Orff wrote the letter because Clara Huber, Kurt's widow, asked him to contribute to a memorial book to her husband. I remember at least one review of the Palmer film treating the letter like a private confession, which is how Michael Kater incorrectly framed it. Kater was also operating under the assumption that Orff had lied about being part of the resistance, which in fact is quite unlikely (see my comment above under "Catullus etc."). At no point does Orff actually ask for forgiveness in the letter, so I removed that part entirely — although I concede one may read it between the lines. My citations include where you can find the text of the letter. Alas, the only English translation of which I'm aware is in my own dissertation, which I feel gauche in citing, but at the same time I'm hoping it will be helpful for people to be able to read it themselves:
 * https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/handle/2027.42/111359 (it's in the third PDF, pages 436–438). AskohlerOpus111 (talk) 10:19, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Carl Orf as a Nazi and SS-officer
To:, pleae see:
 * Composers of the Nazi Era by Michael H. Kater, and Who's Who in Nazi Germany by Robert S. Wistrich for more on this. (Here's some background on Rosenberg from the transcript of his trial for crimes against humanity).


 * Carl Orff, the composer who lived a monstrous lie - Times Online http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article5366154.ece


 * Dark heart of a masterpiece: Carmina Burana's famous chorus hides a murky Nazi past - Features, Theatre & Dance - The Independent, http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/theatre-dance/features/dark-heart-of-a-masterpiece-carmina-buranas-famous-chorus-hides-a-murky-nazi-past-1050503.html


 * Warwick Thompson (from Bloomberg.com:Arts and Culture: Nazi Lies, Hate Emerge in Film About ‘Carmina Burana’ Composer (review by Warwick Thompson), Wednesday, January 28, 2009}:

"Orff in the Gray Zone" A new documentary on the subject of Orff's connections to the Nazis has come out, and this subject deserves some attention...

Tony Palmer has a new documentary about Orff's Nazi connection: "At the end of the war, a sympathetic de-Nazification officer from the U.S. told Orff that if he could prove he had actively helped to overthrow the Nazi regime and not just privately despised it, his name would be cleared as a Nazi sympathizer. He would then be allowed to collect royalties from his masterpiece.

Orff told the man he’d been a member of the White Rose underground resistance group, founded by his friend Kurt Huber. The core members of the group were executed in 1943. Orff’s de- Nazification status was changed from “gray unacceptable” to “gray acceptable,” and he was permitted to compose for public presentation.

Orff’s claim was a lie, as was his later statement that the Nazis had tried to ban “Carmina Burana.”


 * SS-Obersturmführer Karl Orf. in http://www.defendingarnhem.com/Awardwinners.htm --Alex F. (talk) 12:19, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Starting at the end: which source claims that the "SS-Obersturmführer Karl Orf" in your link is the subject of this article, Carl Orff?
 * Kater's writings and its reviews are cited in the article; apparently, his assertion that Orff claimed to have been involved in the foundation of the Weiße Rose have not been verified and Kater no longer holds that view. The review of Palmer's work states, "Orff himself was never a paid-up Nazi."
 * As Alex Ross and others have written, Orff was certainly an opportunist and duplicitious, but more reliable sources are needed to apply the Category:Nazis to him. The other category you added, Category:SS officers, is entirely unsupported. Until you provide reliably sourced material supporting these categories, I suggest you remove them. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:55, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
 * PS: Following the principles of WP:BRD, I'm going to remove those categories until this discussion resolves the matter. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:57, 2 March 2015 (UTC)


 * No to Nazi, and absolutely no to SS. Here's Richard Taruskin's take, and an interesting piece for its own sake:  http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/06/arts/music-orff-s-musical-and-moral-failings.html  Opportunist and a bit of a liar, when it suited him, but he certainly wasn't a party member. Antandrus  (talk) 17:37, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
 * P. S. Taruskin certainly has interesting points worth serious discussion, but his comment about "primitive, unreflective enthusiasm" (quoting a dubious statement by Alex Ross) aroused "in millions" leading to the Holocaust is both embarrassingly reductive and an absurd exaggeration of the role of Carl Orff's music in the Third Reich (see Rathkolb 2021, S. 158). It's up there with J. Mark Searce to saying Carmina Burana "became the backbeat to Hitler's rise to power" despite the fact the premiere was 8 June 1937 and Hitler became chancellor on 30 January 1933.
 * AskohlerOpus111 (talk) 18:16, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Take the newspaper articles linked above with a grain of salt. They're reviews of Tony Palmer's film, which has some excellent things but also is far too uncritical of the White Rose lie claim, which doesn't hold up to scrutiny (see Rathkolb 2021; I also am speaking here as one who's researched the whole mess extensively). Orff also never said the Nazis straight-up banned Carmina Burana, although he misrepresented his reception in the Third Reich by only mentioning the people who were against him, and although he did say that the Schulwerk had been banned (see Dokumentation, Vol. 3, p. 203; Prieberg 2009, 5390). Palmer's film was also spectacularly unclear about the letter to Huber, which was in fact to be a published tribute, as a result of which some of those reviewing the film mischaracterized it. Michael H. Kater in that film also referred to Kurt Huber as a co-founder of the White Rose, which is why Jessica Duchen's article makes that same mistake (Huber was not involved until the last couple months that the White Rose was operational).
 * I have another comment up above going into the allegation that Orff lied about being in the resistance, under the "Catullus etc" section, so I'll refer people up there rather than going on further. I'm about to leave a comment in the preceding section regarding the Huber letter as well.
 * AskohlerOpus111 (talk) 10:07, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Regarding some of the older allegations: Eleonore Büning actually wrote in article currently cited on the Wikipedia page (Die Zeit, 7 July 1995) that Orff joined the NSDAP in 1940, but this is untrue. Fred Prieberg noted that she could have figured that information out easily, but slanderers don't need to do homework (Prieberg 2009, 5394). The accusation that Carl Orff was in the SS is a new one on me. AskohlerOpus111 (talk) 10:24, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

External links modified
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Roman Catholicism
The section entitled Personal Life begins: "Orff was an observant and active Roman Catholic.[19][20]" Yet the very next sentence is: "Orff was married four times: to Alice Solscher (m. 1920, div. 1925), Gertrud Willert (m. 1939, div. 1953), Luise Rinser (m. 1954, div. 1959) and Liselotte Schmitz (m. 1960)" I'd like to point out that, especially in the days before Vatican II, it was impossible to be an "observant Roman Catholic" and be divorced even once, never mind three times.2602:306:CC3A:6860:993C:CEC4:729B:6EB2 (talk) 02:43, 12 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Good pick-up. ;-) While by the time I got to the page, "observant and active" had been deleted, I've added a bit more on this, with citation.
 * AskohlerOpus111 (talk) 09:57, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * P.S.: I found the culprit! The following page was cited: http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/orff-cb/carbur2.php
 * "Orff was a devout active Roman Catholic and included bells in "Ave formosissima" (Song 24). One wonders if the Roman Catholic Church would have officially endorsed Carl Orff's works, particularly Carmina Burana."
 * Three glockenspiels (the actual scoring in question; many of the other numbers in Carmina Burana use various bells) imitating sacring bells is hardly evidence of someone being a "devout active Roman Catholic." Werner Egk uses actual sacring bells in his ballet Abraxas, which was banned in Bavaria by a right-wing Catholic named Alois Hundhammer (I'm not making that up) a few years after WWII for being sacrilegious (they are used in a Satanic mass in hell, after all). I have a feeling the Church would not have endorsed anything that Orff wrote other than his early Ave Maria, which is very nice (probably a student work from the Akademie der Tonkunst).
 * As an addendum, the New York Times reviewer of the most recent production of De temporum fine comoedia, which I saw in Salzburg, "aggressively Christian," much to my irritation. The interminable stretches of music that obscured what was going on probably didn't help....
 * AskohlerOpus111 (talk) 06:01, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 10:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Jewish grandparent?
There seems to be some definite conflict on this. When I simply google a biography of Orff, virtually all sources say that he came from an old Bavarian family of officers and academics but nothing about having a Jewish grandmother. Seemingly, all sources on him having a Jewish grand parent stem from one guy on the "O Fortuna" documentary who claims his daughter once told him privately that his paternal grandmother was born to a Jewish family that converted to Christianity yet "mysteriously" did not mention it in her memoirs and that Orff himself never said anything about it in his writings.

And by "his daughter" I mean Orff's daughter of course.