Talk:Carla Bruni/Archive 1

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BetacommandBot 15:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Model or Supermodel?
Apparently, there is a disagreement about whether Ms Bruni can be labeled, in the article, as a "model" or a "supermodel". However, the link cited in the article itself refers to Ms Bruni as a "supermodel". -The Gnome (talk) 21:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
 * We can say supermodel she was paid as much as other supermodel of the same period : millions of $ per years --84.101.10.176 (talk) 07:20, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Her fee was said to be $279.000. Also, all references I have seen about her career in the press have been at the "supermodel" level.Kyle Andrew Brown (talk) 15:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Flickr
Not kidding, the only photo that was CC was this one: http://www.flickr.com/photos/burgermac/2118012342/

But I seriously doubt it can really be CC. Want other opinions before upload to commons. Barraki (talk) 15:00, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean CB, presumably. Looks like a Photoshop job to me.  And even if it can be proved to be a genuine pic of her, I don't think it's an appropriate image to illustrate her article. --Richardrj talkemail 15:15, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I meant Creative Commons. Anyway, it would be reduced to the upper half. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Barraki (talk • contribs) 15:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

french born italian
For information Carla bruni has both nationality. But I don't know how to write it down correctly so if anyone can do it :) thanks. --84.101.10.176 (talk) 08:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC) (as proof : in 2006 Italian banner-bearer for the Olympic games).


 * She's italian, she's not french at all !!! .....     .  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.5.70.66 (talk) 10:55, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Both the French and Italian Wikipedia articles claim she's an Italian singer, model, etc. Neither list her as being French, other than that she grew up and resides there. From an Anglo-American perspective this must seem strange, since she grew up and lives in France, she must be somewhat French (and Italian). But this isn't true, she's ethnically Italian, and has Italian citizenship. It's also unknown if she even has her French citizenship. But that also doesn't matter since anyone with citizenship in the "European Union community" is free to live anywhere within that group of nations. We know she's Italian (and European), so where she lives doesn't affect her ethnicity or nationality. I know that might be hard for an American or an Australian, for example, to comprehend (this is an English language Wikipedia), but in Europe, one doesn't lose their nationality when they move across national borders. To them it's no different than moving from California to Florida. Their ethnicity (and nationality) never change. Therefore, I'd propose altering the first sentence and removing French from "French-Italian" and in line with how the Italian and French Wikipedia articles are written. --Salvuzzo (talk) 22:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Salvuzzo, I would appreciate that you don't make a general truth of this I know that might be hard for an American or an Australian, for example, to comprehend (this is an English language Wikipedia), but in Europe, one doesn't lose their nationality when they move across national borders. To them it's no different than moving from California to Florida. Their ethnicity (and nationality) never change.... it just isn't true at all. Some places in Europe considers emmigrants to retain their nationality and there are others, like France (and Britain for example) where the citizenship is what determine the nation. What you said, from my observation, is true for some nations of Europe but not all. Matthieu (talk) 11:47, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * To them it's no different than moving from California to Florida. If that's the case, then maybe we should just call her a "European model".  After all, we don't refer to people in Wikipedia as "...is a Floridan singer" or "...is a Californian supermodel", do we?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.246.153.217 (talk) 00:05, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * My comments weren't meant to be degrading to any American or Australian. I hope that wasn't what you thought.  But this is an English language Wikipedia, so I know the majority of readers are from America, Canada, the UK, and Australia.  And for those outside of Europe, nationality and ethnicity are often viewed differently than in the U.S., Canada, or Australia, for example.  It wasn't a knock at non-Europeans.  I'm Italian-European and American, and I'm proud of this!  Perhaps I should have been more specific.  When Italians, like myself, move to other parts of Europe or the World, we almost always retain our ethnic identity, be it an Italian living in Germany, Canada, Australia or Belgium.  In fact, some identify themselves by their regional heritage, i.e., Sardinian, Sicilian, Neapolitan, Roman, Venetian, Lombard.  Campanilismo goes with Italy like pasta goes with ragu.  I'm not sure if it matters what the French or British think of an Italian emigrant, the emigrant is the one to make the autodetermination of their ethnicity, which never changes.  Citizenship and nationality are not the same as ethnicity.  I'm an ethnic Italian living abroad, with dual citizenship/nationality.  Bruni is an ethnic Italian living in France, and does not have French citizenship.  I like the last comment, maybe calling her a "European supermodel" would be better.


 * Here is an update from Il corriere della Sera (Italian newspaper):  "Carla Bruni Sarkozy diventerà francese" «La procedura per ottenere la nazionalità è in corso. Voterà per il prossimo scrutinio in Francia»  If anyone needs help with the translation, please let me know.  In summary, the article states Carla Bruni Sarkozy is in the process of obtaining her French citizenship.  So she's not only ethnically Italian, but still an Italian national, and not yet officially a French citizen. --Salvuzzo (talk) 00:00, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not arguing she's not Italian (especially considering this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=509247&in_page_id=1811 ), I would even argue the reference to her being Italian-French should be changed to only Italian, however I'm answering the point that in Europe a nationality doesn't change with citizenship... that's just wrong. In many countries we have a "American-British-Australian" vision of the nations, and France is one of these. Even Italy has a rather flexible definition of ethnicity, you just have to go to the page on the "House of Savoy" and look at "ethnicity" when the guys were Frenchmen, even the English here didn't have the guts to write the Norman and Angevin kings were English by ethnicity. Matthieu (talk) 18:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I must have misunderstood your comments the first time. You're right, I totally agree with this.  Cheers buddy! --  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Salvuzzo (talk • contribs) 00:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Miss Sarkozy-Bruni will never stop amazing me. After saying the French are miserable and being proud to be Italian, then taking the French citizenship, she is now glad not to be Italian anymore and to be French. Matthieu (talk) 20:23, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't get it... How can Carla Bruni be France's First Lady and not even be born in France or have a citizenship of France?? Thank allah that USA is not France and is a sober-thinking, conservative country! Imagine an American President who is elected when he is single, gets married during his presidency, and she, the First Lady is... oh I dunno... a Russian or even a French or Italian, and has no American citizenship, yet she is still the First Lady of USA?
 * That being said, I have nothing against Sarcozy — actually, I think he is the best President of France since ages! --Topk (talk) 14:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Nicolas Sarkozy
Quatre consonnes et trois voyelles c'est le prénom de Nicolas....

ahem...sorry, I had to put this here.....Lazulilasher (talk) 15:19, 19 December 2007 (UTC) Trop drôle ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.128.234.16 (talk) 21:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Translation
The exact wording in French as provided by Le Monde is the following : ''c'est du sérieux et ce n'est pas le JDD qui fixera la date. Il y a de fortes chances que vous l'appreniez quand ça sera déjà fait..''

which had been translated by : ''It's a serious matter, but the date won't be fixed today. It is serious. You will find out when it happens.''

I don't understand why serious appears twice in the translation.

I have replaced. Hektor (talk) 16:57, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I, ah, happen to speak a little French myself. So I know that your replacing the CNN-translation was done with good reason. So what do we do? Maybe there is a better translation that could be cited? It would seem quite strange to me using a translation that alters the original meaning quite a bit. --Catgut (talk) 17:56, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * If there is a better translation than the CNN translation, please replace the CNN translation, but it must be cited. Using your own translation is problematic. Especially problematic is the insertion of [the wedding] in brackets which is definitely original research. He could just as easily have been referring to the setting of a wedding date, not the wedding itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mike R (talk • contribs) 18:24, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Other languages?
The links to the articles in other languages seem to be broken. Can anyone fix this? Baldrick90 (talk) 15:12, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

First Lady? Previously a Singer?
As there is nothing like a First Lady in France, and there is no wikilink, I've decided to delete this. There is no official role for the spouse of a French president. Also, I cannot see why it should be stated, that Bruni was a singer. If I'm not wrong this is not according to WP policy, and using the past tense is suitable only for dead people. Furthermore, marrying the French president doesn't mean that her professional life has come to an end and she is now some sort of housewife. Any arguments? --Catgut (talk) 14:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the edit Catgut, it's more accurate and better form: I did the revert earlier (IP:205.246.153.217) and wasn't happy with the clumsy sentence but lacked any facts to back up any changes. I'll bear it in mind to drop a note on the Talk next time I have a query. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.93.214 (talk) 00:56, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No problem, thanks for your comment! --Catgut (talk) 01:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't call her Carla Bruni Sarkozy: in France, women do not change their official name by marriage. People (usually women, but men too) can use the spouse's name (in addition to theirs, or as a replacement for theirs), so she can choose to be called Bruni Sarkozy, but I have seen no evidence for that yet in the media. --Eeric (talk) 09:43, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That's why I included a link to a supporting article when I edited the name. The article in People says she, "signed her wedding certificate "Mrs. Carla Bruni Sarkozy."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ariadne55 (talk • contribs) 10:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I would like to point out that according to Dictionary.com, the First Lady of any country is the wife of the chief executive. The current head of state in France is Nicolas Sarkozy, so as of yesterday, Carla Bruni became the French First Lady. In addition, Wikipedia has already named Carla Bruni as the French First Lady the article President of France.--Dem393 (talk) 16:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The French people visiting this page seem to disagree with you, but I'll let them deal with that issue from now on. There is some humor in your using Laua Bush's page as a template for this one. Ariadne55 (talk) 17:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I don't understand the French humor in that joke. =( Laura Bush is the First Lady of the United States, and the infobox is mainly used for First Ladies.--Dem393 (talk) 22:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, People reported that Bruni's mother called her the first lady. See the following article: http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20168613,00.html?xid=rss-fullcontentcnn --Dem393 (talk) 22:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

In this article Carla Bruni describes herself as the "premiere dame" (literal translation of first lady) and says she will be until the end of her husband's mandate. http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/2008/02/12/01002-20080212ARTFIG00592-carla-bruni-sera-une-premiere-dame-serieuse.php —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.193.192.68 (talk) 21:30, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Bruni certainly has the right to describe herself in any way she wants to. Yet the fact remains, that there is no First Lady in France (e.g. compared to the US, where the respective First Lady entertains an office of her own, etc.). The spouse of a French President is just his wife (or maybe sometime in the future her husband), nothing else. --Catgut (talk) 21:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I am under the impression that the title First Lady in the United States is de facto and not de jure, am I wrong? Carla Bruni is referred to the First Lady in the third person by the same article posted above in Le Figaro. She also recently hosted an official state dinner for the Israeli president at the Elysee Palace, the article linked below refers to her as the "premiere dame" as well. If the title is indeed based on usage and not official, shouldn't two of France's largest newspapers count? http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/actualites/international/20080311.OBS4413/israel__shimon_peres_recu_en_ami_a_lelysee.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.193.192.68 (talk) 21:53, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * another article referring to Bruni as the First Lady. This time the dinner in honor of the Israeli President is described as her "first steps as the First Lady of France." http://www.guysen.com/articles.php?sid=6858&titre=Israël-en-France —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.193.192.68 (talk) 21:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * in my opinion this is conclusive: Le Monde is France's largest newspaper and the unofficial newspaper of record. The last sentence of this article describes Carla Bruni as "The First Lady of France, Carla Bruni-Sarkozy". http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2008/03/25/banquet-de-la-reine-a-windsor-quelques-regles-a-l-usage-des-invites_1027065_3214.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.193.192.68 (talk) 21:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, there is lot of evidence out there for those in doubt. Carla Bruni is indeed the current Première dame de France, like it or not... - Wikigi | talk to me | 19:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, if you provide a source that proves this is her official title, it would be alright with me. Unless this happens attributing this title to her is in my view against WP:NOR. Btw, whatever Bruni is called by some newspapers is unimportant as it is not encyclopedic. I consider it much more relevant that Bruni calls herself simply epouse du Président de la République (wife of the President of the French Republic) . I guess, this says it all. --Catgut (talk) 22:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * This is ludicrous, since when do we need an headline in WP to be an "official title" ? You have now managed to put her marriage with the French President under "Personal life" !!? Is there any such thing as public life here? I don't understand what your problem is. I am French and I happen to know how we call the wife of the Prez here (as it is mentioned several times under "Dénomination" in the French WP article you quote) and BTW, Le Monde is not "some unimportant newspaper" and wether YOU consider anything to be more relevant that what they print is just hilarious. - Wikigi | talk to me | 11:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * What is ludicrous is to write "première dame" - a translation of the English "first lady" - into an English article. It makes no sense whatsoever. Mezigue (talk) 23:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The whole thing is nonsense. The media may translate her role as 'First Lady' for the benefit of Americans and parts of the world where American culture has influence.  She may even use an approximation of the term herself.  The fact is the office is peculiar to the United States.  If there was no 'First Lady' of the United States Carla Bruni would not be First Lady of France.  If the French wanted the curious office of First Lady they would have it already, and it's crass to borrow the term because of journalistic usage or because one American says to another "Carla Bruni, she's kind of the First Lady of France", which is all its use here amounts to.  It isn't encyclopaedic.  The heading of that section should be 'Role as wife of the French President'.  That would take care of the Beavis and Buttheadedness.  Hakluyt bean (talk) 02:17, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally I am also against using that made-up title, although I fear the consensus is probably against us. However "role as wife of French President" is a clumsy title and we might just as well just call the section simply "wife of the French president". Mezigue (talk) 08:54, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Born 1967 or 1968?
Have we yet reached a consensus whether to have 1967 or 1968 as the the year of Bruni's birth? --Catgut (talk) 00:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Name change
Please do not change her name to Carla Bruni Sarkozy until she is known to be actually using that name. Her full name was not Carla Bruni in the first place it was Carla Bruni Tedeschi: for public figures, the name used in Wikipedia should surely be the one they use. A good source in this case is her official website, on which her name has not been changed. Wikipedia should not jump the gun. Mezigue (talk) 12:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * She's already signed Carla Bruni Sarkozy to one important legal document. I've moved the cite back so it's next to the name.  Also, I've put the name she's best known by back in the first sentence and the infobox again.  Three names in one paragraph seemed repetitive, so I put her birth name in the first paragraph of her bio.  Some might think her birth name belongs in the first paragraph though, but I'd suggest last sentence if so.  Ariadne55 (talk) 17:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I can't edit again today because of the 3 reverts rule. However, the Wikipedia Manual of Style says, "a woman should be called by the name she is most widely known under." The current version has her current name and her birth name in the first paragraph, but not the name she is most widely known under. The current version also also moves the cite for her name change back down to the bottom, rather than keeping it next to her new name. A cite should be next to the information it supports, to prevent newcomers from editing what must look like to them like an unsupported change. Ariadne55 (talk) 18:43, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No, read more carefully. Full legal name at beginning (here, the most quote you refer to is for article title. Refs are rarely right next to opening name, and often not in lead at all, and this is quite correct for it to be where it is (see Lead section. --UpDown (talk) 19:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The manual of style says the full legal name (which is currently Carla Bruni Sarkozy) should be given in the opening paragraph, as it was in my edit. The manual of style does not require the full birth name to be given in that paragraph, which is why I put her best known name in the opening and her birth name in the first sentence of her bio.
 * As for the link, looking at the page as it is right now, I think it's clear that I was right about that link needing to be at the top so future editors could see it before they mucked up her name. I'm not going to bother to edit it, since it the page seems to be in such flux that it would be undone again quickly. Ariadne55 (talk) 21:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

"She's already signed Carla Bruni Sarkozy to one important legal document." Would you mind backing this kind of statement with sources, such as a legal document or official press release..? - Wikigi | talk to me | 10:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * See my latest comment above Talk:Carla_Bruni. There's an Italian newspaper, for reference, using her name like that. Cheers! --Salvuzzo (talk) 17:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The new Vanity Fair article refers to her as Carla Bruni-Sarkozy, in the very first sentence of the article, on page 340. That name is used again at least once more. IvyGold (talk) 00:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I should now add that I later noticed that on the cover, Vanity Fair ID'd her as simply Carla Bruni. I think the wikipedia editor has it right for now. IvyGold (talk) 04:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

List of lovers?
the List of lovers on the template looks weird. 67.173.253.139 (talk) 04:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

This template seems to be long gone, but speaking of the new Vanity Fair article, it states that her affair with Trump (and another supposed affair with Kevin Costner) "never happened" on page 344. So: she never boinked Trump. Time to remove him in this connection? IvyGold (talk) 00:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Child
According to this Daily Mail article, she had a child in 2001. Seems there should be a reference to this somewhere in the article, but I'm not sure where best to put it. Typofixer76 (talk) 04:29, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This is already mentioned here : The Enthovens - Wikigi | talk to me | 09:56, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Sarkozy-Bruni
Some press articles suggest that her legal surname is now Sarkozy-Bruni, even if she still uses Bruni casually and is known by it. --81.105.243.17 (talk) 11:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Risque pictures of Carla Bruni
Some would regard the reference to photos of Carla Bruni "involving total nudity, but no beaver shots" as tasteless, it is none the less factual; nor do these pictures precede her great success but followed it - they are publicity shots, and not layouts from a nudie magazine or badly lighted Polaroids. It is notorious that the French have different standards in these matters than, say, Americans. I included this information, not to scandalize, but because I was actually surprised to discover it, which wasn't hard - just Google "Carla Bruni" at Google Images. Since many of the pix are embedded in actual news stories I find it hard to doubt their authenticity. In any case, they show an aspect of Carla Bruni not played up by the usual media story about her, which relies heavily on her supposed glamor as "The new princess Di", et cetera. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.140.47 (talk) 17:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't see in what way those pictures are different from any other fashion model pictures (you've got to open a women magazine once in a while), this has nothing to do with French as most pictures have been shot by great American photographers, often while she was working in the US - Wikigi | talk to me | 17:24, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I personally don't find the pictures remarkable, but they certainly play against the meme of "the new Lady Di" being promoted by the media, for obvious commercial purposes. They are significant in showing a side of the subject that conflicts with the public persona as put forth by the press. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.140.47 (talk) 17:28, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of reference to risque photos of C.B. from article
I see some self appointed censor has instantly deleted the reference to the above, WITHOUT providing the slightest justification or explanation of why they are "not Wikipedia". Obvious this person is both so in love with the public image of C.B., and at the same time ashamed of their infatuation, that they did not even try to justify their actions. Bon chance! I invite you to delete my comments from the talk page as well, in order that your point of view may not be sullied by any conflicting viewpoint, facts notwithstanding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.140.47 (talk) 17:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Carla Bruni Tedeschi, know as Carla Bruni
Italian is not like Spanish. Double sournames are very rare (they often are a sign of nobility but this is not the case I guess) and Carla Bruni does actually have a double surname (Bruni Tedeschi). Although she is know as Carla Bruni, as a pseudonym, the reference to its actual legal surname should stay. --89.97.35.70 (talk) 19:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Regardless, WP:COMMONNAME should apply - which is and probably always shall be Carla Bruni. FlagSteward (talk) 03:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Photo use
Any guidance on use of Buckingham Palace and Elysee Palace provided photos? There are lots of those that the magazines pick up and use. We may have to wait for the White House visit - cause those are definetly fair use! Kyle Andrew Brown
 * In general European countries don't have the same concept of fair use for government pictures, in fact the UK has a distinct concept of Crown copyright. FlagSteward (talk) 03:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Genre(s)/Years active/Label(s)
I wonder if the article should have a singer-style info box. Would you agree these 3 lines should be removed? The full information is in the article anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.125.90.119 (talk) 14:52, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Nationality
It was on the french news today. Carla is now a french citizen ! So someone should change the intro saying she is a french citizen with italian origin. thanks ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.87.93.59 (talk) 18:36, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Never heard of double citizenship? --89.97.35.70 (talk) 08:50, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * sorry for Italia but she is only french now ! and she is very "happy and excited to represent our country". (quoted from her interview on french tv tonight). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.87.93.59 (talk) 18:42, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * People, she may be French citizen, but Bruni was born Italian and Italian is her nationality. --NOAH (talk) 19:50, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Nope, she renounced her Italian nationality. She doesn't have, for instance, any right to vote here anymore. In front of the law she's as french as Chirac and as much Italian as him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.16.38.98 (talk) 10:57, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Nationality and citizenship are not the same. You can be French citizen but still have Italian nationality. --NOAH (talk) 17:17, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

She has obtained French citizenship early this July and is married to the French President, what else do you need. Yes, she was born in Italy from Italian parents, but she has been living in France since she was 5 year old. Now she's French, period. The way you put it, "Italian-born, naturalized French", is fine with me.- Wikigi | talk to me | 19:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok. Have a nice evening. --NOAH (talk) 19:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * In details : double nationality is possible, but in Carla's case, acquiring double nationality would have been way longer than switching. So she switched. Barraki (talk) 13:14, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Quotes
What the fuck are those quotes doing in her personal life section? It makes the article look like a crappy gossip magazine.
 * This is a crappy gossip article. Hektor (talk) 20:27, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ignoring the strong language, I agree the quotes shouldn't be there. They can, at least, be moved to the "Relationships" sub-section to join another quote that is already there. Would anyone like to correct this? Thanks Kvsh5 (talk) 05:36, 1 November 2008 (UTC)