Talk:Carla Bruni/Archive 2

Political party affiliation
I don't believe she can be affiliated to UMP. She declared many time to be a leftist. 15.243.233.68 (talk) 16:26, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Andorra

 * There is no such function as a "princess consort of Andorra". Please provide an Andorran source if you can prove otherwise. Hektor (talk) 20:27, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Bruni-Sarkozy
Any source for her family name supposed change to Bruni-Sarkozy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.150.126.120 (talk) 23:33, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not a regular wiki editor. I can see that some spam code activates on viewing this page advertising a site. Can this be removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.85.130.220 (talk) 17:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Question, shouldn't this article be entitled "Carla Bruni-Sarkozy" or "Carla Bruni Sarkozy". She is the wife of the French President, she is also known as Carla Bruni-Sarkozy as it was published in LIFE Magazine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.95.85.219 (talk) 06:47, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Life is a US magazine and prone to using US name forms regardless of whetehr the individuals in question actually use them. The name of a French woman who marries doesn't legally change, though they can take their husband's name as a "usage name" - see French name if they wish. At the moment she is best known as Carla Bruni. Timrollpickering (talk) 18:23, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

"First lady" activities
I see that people are getting into the habit of entering her social engagements as wife of the French president. Surely if she is now doing this sort of thing part-time it is now part of her routine and neet not be entered here, if only because the list would soon be unmanageable? Likewise television appearances are not worth recording on this page: part of the routine for a professional singer Mezigue (talk) 18:51, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Move to France
She stated on Letterman (link - see 1:43) on 18 November that her family moved to France when she was eight, which puts the "1973" in the article into doubt. - Dudesleeper / Talk  10:56, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Carla Bruni has double citizenship
As she stated in an Italian TV show yesterday evening, she has both the French and Italian citizenship. (5:50) http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lefigaro.fr%2Finternational%2F2009%2F01%2F26%2F01003-20090126ARTFIG00320-battisti-carla-sarkozy-assure-n-y-etre-pour-rien-.ph&v=0Qvd3adSrsA --Fertuno (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Jewish ancestry
According to this article in the European Jewish Press, Carla Bruni is from a Jewish family that converted to Catholicism during the Second World War.

http://www.ejpress.org/article/23927

As such it is improper to classify her as a French person of Italian ancestry, she is Jewish, not Italian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.205.96.28 (talk) 15:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The information in that article does not make her Jewish by any reckoning except the Nazi one (i.e. any drop of Jewish blood makes you Jewish). Fuck off. Mezigue (talk) 20:29, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Telling another poster to "fuck off" and then editing the article back to what it used to be, means nothing, especially when by the laws of Israel the "Jewish State" she is a Jew and is eligible for instant citizenship in Israel.

Mention is made that she has dual citizenship, why is there a blanket policy against mentioning somebody has jewish ancestry? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.205.96.28 (talk) 09:21, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Citizenship
Whatever she has said or not, she holds dual italian french citizenship because since 24 march 1995, in France and Italy the Second Protocol modifying the Strasbourg Convention is in force, which states that an Italian citizen who marries a French citizen, acquires automatically the French citizenship without losing the Italian one. -- Twi light 21:58, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That is not conclusive evidence. Yes she could have kept her Italian nationality, but she could also have renounced it voluntarily.  Since she appears to have said both in different interviews, there is no reason to choose one version as the correct one, so it is better to just mention the confusion. Mezigue (talk) 14:10, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Regarding her obtention of French nationality -- I modified the statement that she obtained it with her marriage to Sarkozy. It's not at all supported by the Figaro article quoted (she merely says she "obtained French nationality some time ago"). Also, according to current French law, you can obtain French nationality by having at least a 5-year residence in the country, or by having been married to a French citizen for at least 2 years. Considering she'd married Sarkozy a few months earlier, it's highly improbable she obtained French nationality via the marriage -- although it's not impossible considering the strings Sarkozy pulls for those close to him, it's much more probable she obtained it due to her long residence in France. Since, however, she doesn't say precisely, I've written "...likely due to her long residence in France rather than due to her recent marriage." --fraise (talk) 13:12, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It is better to not write anything than to speculate. Mezigue (talk) 13:57, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Co-Princess of Andorra?
If her husband is co-prince and she is the first lady of France, does that make her the co-princess of Andorra? Gryffindor (talk) 11:54, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * There is no such title. (And no, there is no "first lady of France" title either but for some reason there is a consensus in favour of this idiocy on this page.) Mezigue (talk) 12:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * But what about Catherine of Navarre? Was she not by right as queen-regnant also Co-Princess of Andorra? --Gryffindor (talk) 22:25, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, answer found, see here List of Co-Princes of Andorra. Indeed she was co-princess, since she ruled in her own right. That still leaves open though what the title of consorts in this case would be? --Gryffindor (talk) 22:28, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see what you're refering to there. Is there a reliable source indicating she is recognized as co-princess? (D'oh re-read what you said; yes Catherine of Navarre not Bruni.)  I think what is needed is a reliable source indicating a title for Bruni.  Otherwise I can't see including it.  --TeaDrinker (talk) 23:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

What is wrong with the introduction? & First Lady discussion
Currently there is a tag asking to correct and expand the introduction. It looks perfectly acceptable to me. Mezigue (talk) 14:53, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It should be a bit longer. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:00, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * All you need to know is there... longer for what? ("Consideration should be given to creating interest in reading the whole article. Accordingly, editors should avoid lengthy paragraphs and over-specific descriptions" — MOS:INTRO) - Wikigi | talk to me | 06:03, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It really does puzzle me that so few editors have taken the time to read WP:LEDE. The lede should provide a reasonable summary of all the article's key points. One noun per vocation is not a reasonable summary. For a good example of what's required, compare this article to the current version. I normally end up having to do this sort of work myself, which is why the article was tagged; if the lede isn't improved by someone else then I'll eventually do it myself, and need the tag to sort the page into the appropriate cleanup category. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:01, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I know what's wrong with the intro: the term First Lady. There is no First Lady in France, it is wrong and and should be eliminatd. Bruni is a beautiful woman, an aspiring singer, a former model and President Sarkozy's wife, that's all (isn't that already enough!). She's not a First Lady, sorry guys. Maybe we could finally get rid of this on July 14th? Would be nice! --Catgut (talk) 16:00, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You never heard of "Première dame de France"? - Wikigi | talk to me | 08:31, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * there really is no such office and there was also a heated discussion on the French page about it. Mezigue (talk) 09:57, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I've heard of les épouses des présidents de la République française. That's fine with me. The wives of the presidents of the French republic. No First Ladys, unfortunately. --Catgut (talk) 11:45, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * We don't need an "office". See First Lady and also List of First Ladies of France. We've had this discussion before. I see no problem whatsoever with the use of First Lady or "Première dame de France" in French. This is a rather trivial dispute (Catgut, read on -> Première dame de France#Dénomination). - Wikigi | talk to me | 12:42, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it's not a trivial dispute. It's about whether we deal with facts or with fiction. And thanks for referring me to the French article, but I've read it often enough. And it says that there is no official First Lady in France. Period. And as you are now the only one arguing for using the term, I will elimit it from the article. She is the wife of the French president. And that's it. --Catgut (talk) 09:38, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "First Lady is the unofficial title in a number of countries of the wife of an elected male head of state." — First Lady - Wikigi | talk to me | 15:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If it's unofficial, it's pov, and therefore irrelevant (see WP:NPOV). And the French article on her calls her "wife of the French president". No First Lady, no Prémiere Dame (see WP:VERIFY). So we stick to that, and do not invent special solutions for the English language article (see WP:OR). See also WP:BLP, WP:MOSBIO. --Catgut (talk) 21:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "If it's unofficial, it's pov, and therefore irrelevant" — Catgut (14 July 2009).

And yet you edit this article, on your own assessment, with the following : Wife of the President of the French Republic. You then went on to rename List of First Ladies of France to Wife of the President of the French Republic saying " Wife of the President of the French Republic is the unofficial title of the wife of the President of France . No crap! What a joke... - Wikigi | talk to me | 20:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC) As you're also active on the French Wikipedia, why don't you start a discussion there and propose renaming this article into "Liste des Premières Dames de la République française"? Or to make similar changes in the French article on Bruni? For example here? I'd be happy to see the outcome of your efforts. Until that we leave our article as it is, follow our rules and guidelines, do not invent things, or engage in Original Research, and refrain from edit warring. --Catgut (talk) 09:45, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Once again: There is no First Lady in France, there is no official function for the wives of French presidents, they have no office, no staff, no official title, nothing. In short: There is nothing that is even slightly comparable to the American First Lady. The thing that comes closest is what the French Wikipedia calls her: wife of the president. If they do that, we will certainly not invent an artifical solution for the English language Wiki, as this is forbidden per WP:NOR.

Too bad no-one else here seems to show interest in this :

"First lady" according to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary : (Date: 1834) Whether the wife of a French president is called "spouse of the president" in France or not is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the fact that she is still called a First Lady in english language. Open any newspaper or read the news online.. - Wikigi | talk to me | 10:07, 30 July 2009 (UTC) Regarding the argument with the dictionary, labelling someone with a term found in a dictionary is against WP:NOR. Take for example this. We would certainly find at least a few articles about persons fitting the definition. But of course we do not call somebody a psychopath, unless we'd have a credible source that would allow us to say "According to...". And even if we did that, "psychopath" wouldn't be a recognised profession or occupation. --Catgut (talk) 11:41, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * : the wife or hostess of the chief executive of a country or jurisdiction
 * : the leading woman of an art or profession
 * Newspapers are a reliable source for facts, less so for language. I am sure that you can find newspaper sources referring to the Clinton's late cat as the "first cat" for example, but that does not mean Wikipedia should follow suit.  The fact is that this is a non-existing office/function whatever.  Mezigue (talk) 10:23, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I doubt you will find an entry for "first cat" in Merriam–Webster with "Cat of the chief executive of a country or jurisdiction" as a definition.. this is getting real silly now - Wikigi | talk to me | 10:41, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And the French First Lady does have a staff (secretaries, etc..) and an office in the "Lady's wing" of the Élysée Palace - Wikigi | talk to me | 11:21, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The source cited by you says that she has an office with one or more secretaries who deal with her correspondence. That's it.
 * Listen Catgut, first you had a problem with the term of "First Lady" being applied to Carla Bruni because it was an "unofficial" term but you came up with nothing but a different unofficial term. You then stated that she had "no office, no staff, no official title" to support your argument (!!?), not sure what your point was in the first place but took the time to demonstrate that you were wrong in that she does have an office and a dedicated staff. It looks like you guys are just annoyed at the fact anyone but the wife of the American Prez could be named that way. Not sure I understand what your "real" goal is... - Wikigi | talk to me | 13:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You are using the word "office" in a different sense! I meant "an office" as in "a professional position",an elected office, not a room to work in. My goal incidentally, is accuracy. Mezigue (talk) 13:47, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I was responding to Catgut and used it appropriately in the sense he intended. I perfectly understood your point. Hard to manage you two at once.. You are very accurate when stating that the wife of the president is the wife of the president.. "chapeau bas !" - Wikigi | talk to me | 14:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Why, thank you but... well if you agree she is the wife of the president why not let the article say she is the wife of the president, eh? But please don't add "Première Dame" in an English article, that is the least acceptable version of the three as it's a translation of "First lady" in the first place and was reverted ages ago. Mezigue (talk) 14:14, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If Michelle Obama can be called First Lady of the USA, Carla Bruni can be called First Lady of France. First Lady is not an official title ANYWHERE. 02:33, 21 August 2009 (UTC)~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.167.245.190 (talk)

France has no First Lady
The president of France happens to be married but Carla Bruni does not hold any official position. (France is not the USA.) | Take a look at the French - she's the "spouse of the President of the Republic", nothing more official than that. Nick (talk) 18:26, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The first lady isnt an official title anywhere. It's just what we call Michelle Obama here in the US, she has no official duties and the title of first lady is not mentioned in any US Law.--Duffy2032 (talk) 06:28, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes but there is a long tradition of calling it that in the US. People have been using the title on this article on the basis of newspapers using it to describe Carla Bruni (see archived discussion) but the papers are only parotting their US counterparts.  I am also in favour of not using this non-existing title when referring to countries other than the US. Mezigue (talk) 10:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Can people please stop adding ‘First Lady’ to this article?  It is an American title, and not even an official one over there.  She’s a singer who’s married to Nicolas Sarkozy.  If you want to give her a title based on that, it’s ‘madame Sarkozy’.  Enough coca-colonisation of France!  — Chameleon 02:33, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * "A singer who’s married to Nicolas Sarkozy"? This remark speaks volume. One of the most prominent French newspaper referred to her as "Première dame" again only two days ago (see Carla Bruni-Sarkozy, sa vie, ses œuvres, son site - Libération). Of course, that a "singer" (paaardon me!) could be a First Lady seems to irk a few... - Wikigi | talk to me | 08:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Carla Bruni - article name
She is best known as "Carla Bruni" and just a mere google search of those two names validates that. Moreover, she did not adopt the hyphenated version of the name on her latest music CD. Another evidence of relevant notability: in the Sep. 2008 issue of Vanity Fair, she appeared on the cover with the title of "Carla bruni" even though she was addressed as Carla bruni-sarkozy within the article. The article name should be reverted back to the original title because of two issues: a) the considerably higher notability of the name "Carla bruni" and b) the fact that she continues to publicly, professionally use that name in her music career (I imagine things would be different if she was using the new name professionally across the board, which she isn't). The article was abruptly redirected to its current name in November 2009, with no discussion or reasoning presented. Therefore, I am going to revert it to the more encyclopedic and apt title. Please discuss here.Hutch y2k (talk) 17:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Her official website is carlabrunisarkozy.org. On the other hand, it could be argue that Carla Bruni is the name by which she is most commonly known. (see WP:MOSBIO. --Catgut (talk) 02:24, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I know it is tricky. She does also have this website: http://www.carlabruni.com/  Plus, consider this latest headline from Reuters: "Pop star wins case over alleged Carla Bruni affair"; the article then refers to her current legal full name in its lead, but the fact that she is referred to as Carla bruni in the headline says something.  I think it is very likely that some day soon we will have to change the article name to Carla bruni-sarkozy but imo that isn't today, because of the still inferior notability of that name.Hutch y2k (talk) 03:20, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Iran is to be condemned
A semi-official Iranian newspaper called Mrs. Bruni a prostitute. This is outrageous! France is the greatest (talk) 22:47, 30 August 2010 (UTC) We should consider whether this really belongs here. It is trivial but hot news of the day. France is the greatest (talk) 23:34, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Today, this is also front page news in Italy. Catgut (talk) 00:08, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Carla Bruni's nude photo
Is it real her photo?
 * Could be, it looks like her. --BwB (talk) 15:30, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Citizenship / nationality
In order to avoid further futile edits and/or reverts regarding Bruni's nationality, I'd suggest that this issue be mentioned or explained in the lead. Any comments or proposals on how to find a short and quick way to do that? Maybe like this: She has abandoned her former Italian citizenship. Catgut (talk) 22:15, 31 July 2010 (UTC)


 * See WP:MOSBIO. We don't elaborate on former citizenship in the lead. Her birthplace is visible in the infobox and that should be sufficient. Otherwise, it could be explained later in the article. I'll put a comment in the lead stating Italian should not be added. Yworo (talk) 18:53, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Let me cite from WP:MOSBIO: "Similarly, previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Thus, it could be argued that Bruni's former or other citizenship be mentioned in the lead. Catgut (talk) 00:19, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * According to the Marianne article linked to in the footnotes, Bruni has told US television that she no longer has Italian nationality and an Italian interviewer that she does. Basically we have no way of checking what the truth is so when in doubt, best not to add dubious facts.  Mezigue (talk) 20:51, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

CARLA BRUNI has got double citizenship, italian and french! she has not abandoned her italian citizenship, she explain all in this interview from italian television (if u don't know italian language, is not my problem) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAP6yUhSe78 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.39.115.152 (talk) 01:31, 4 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Is she also a citizen of Andorra, since her husband is the Co-Prince of Andorra? --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 22:16, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I recentley saw a youtube video and she admitted that she is only French now. So therefore she has given up her italian nationality. MrAmberGold (talk) 09:10, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not correct. She has never relinquished his Italian citizenship. The proof is that Giulia Sarkozy has got the double citizenship. --93.45.197.145 (talk) 22:50, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Just to add an opinion from a French with lots of Italian and French-Italian family, there is no reason for her to have renounced her citizenship, in fact it's probably a lot of hassle to do it, for nothing to gain. Aesma (talk) 23:05, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Carla Bruni-Sarkosy's Personal life
I would like to say how shocked I am by the revelations made about Carla's relationships prior to her mariage to the French President.I was under the impression that Wikipedia was rightly on its guard about revealing personal details about a living person. I'm surprised that information concerning possible lovers has been left for all and sundry to read. Would Wikipedia readers like their lives to be exposed in such a way?--Hunnyargus (talk) 12:37, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Reliably sourced material can be included in Wiki. --BwB (talk) 16:22, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * What is considered as a source in the Carla Bruni article, such as an eventual affair with ex-French Prime Minister Fabius, is based on hearsay evidence reported by the press; rumours and gossip reported by the media, even if it's the BBC, does not mean that it is the truth. The source is therefore unreliable.--Hunnyargus (talk) 11:49, 20 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree that there is no reason to mention her rumored lovers, unless direct evidence exists (her saying it or a picture of her in a couple with the men), however I'm not sure why her personal life starts with her husband and only later mentions her relationships with the Enthovens and her son ? Seems strange to me. Aesma (talk) 23:11, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Un metier d'art pour moi ?!
According to your article about Madam Cakhla Bkhuni, "Bruni met the recently divorced French president Nicolas Sarkozy in November 2007, at a dinner party.[28] After a brief romance they married on 2 February 2008 at the Élysée Palace in Paris". I'd like to know whether anyone has more information abot "THAT BRIEF ROMANCE". What does that mean exactly? It's rumored ,once she talked about that as "Un metier d'art pour moi". 5.119.193.143 (talk) 08:49, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * A brief romance means a relationship. I doubt anyone knows much more, and Wikipedia doesn't print rumours. Mezigue (talk) 12:32, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Carla Bruni. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100705104407/http://www.lematin.ch:80/people/autoportrait-carla-bruni-vendu-6500-euros-encheres-296032 to http://www.lematin.ch/people/autoportrait-carla-bruni-vendu-6500-euros-encheres-296032

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Relationship with Donald Trump
The Zimbio article (http://www.zimbio.com/Donald+Trump+Dating+History/articles/ysrarXJaYhN/Donald+Trump+dated+Carla+Bruni+Sarkozy) claims they dated but cites no references and Zimbio is not a publication that existed during the 90's. The Seattle times article (http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19910918&slug=1306074) says the following about their rumored relationship:

«"Trump is obviously a lunatic," the Sicilian Sizzler [Bruni] says. "It's so untrue and I'm deeply embarrassed by it." The model [Bruni] said she met the Deal Artist [Trump] but once "about a year ago at a big charity party in New York. And I haven't seen him since - of that I'm sure."» — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.188.10.23 (talk) 00:38, 27 May 2016 (UTC)