Talk:Carla Vernón/Archive 1

Notes for continuing editing
User:Horse Eye's Back, here are some pointers regarding this draft:
 * 1) I confess to using personal OR for a few facts (middle name, birth date and place of birth) are all included based on my personal knowledge of my sister without reference.
 * 2) At one point in the day on the 13th, my sister told me that she only did four interviews on December 13. So there were at the time 5 original sources: The Honest Press release, her inteviews with WWD, CEW, People in Espanol and the fourth interview was either Forbes or Fortune. Everything else is likely to be some sort of rehash. Essence and Black Enterprise seem to be original to me, but may be determined to be mirrorish.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:08, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * 3) I can personally attest to the fact that our family moved to Fredonia, New York in 1969, Orchard Park, New York in 1973 and then to the village of Snyder, New York within the town of Amherst, New York in 1975. My family owned the Amherst home until 2004. My sister moved to Minneapolis in 1998 and then built her current home in Edina, MN in 2015.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:11, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * 4) I need some help with the pronunciation elements. I want to mirror the Jessica Alba article. As I understand it, in the Spanish pronunciation of the name, the first syllable Ver rhymes with there, where and wear and the second syllable rhymes with known.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:15, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Interviews are NOT reliable independent sources. Theroadislong (talk) 20:19, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * While not independent content and WP:PRIMARY sources when given to the reader in a "raw" format, interviews can be useful for filling in more mundane sorts of biographical facts. —  Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:45, 19 December 2022 (UTC)


 * 1) A lot of current press is behind paywalls
 * https://www.barrons.com/articles/the-honest-company-names-cpg-veteran-carla-vernon-as-chief-executive-officer-and-one-of-the-only-afro-latina-ceos-at-a-u-s-publicly-traded-company-01670941210
 * https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-13/honest-co-names-former-amazon-executive-as-new-ceo?leadSource=uverify%20wall
 * https://www.cew.org/beauty_news/the-honest-companys-new-ceo-talks-growth-opportunities-jessica-albas-business-mind/
 * I think the biggest issue with getting this ready for mainspace is going to be tone, this reads like a PR release. We also can't use OR, you are not a WP:RS. Please do not share unpublished personal information either in the article or on the talk page, it is a violation of our BLP policy even when its a family member. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 20:30, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I actually had a lot of OR in there and gradually sourced a lot of it. Sorry. I am not sure if there is a way to research date and place of birth via databases.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:38, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I am going to take a break from editing for several hours. Good luck with cleaning this up.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:39, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Please please please follow WP:BLP in the future, there is no exemption for relatives and this will get you blocked. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 20:41, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind I was editing with a underconstruction tag at the top in WP:AFC space.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:16, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * In general, we're a bit more lenient when people are drafting than when people actually move it to the article space. None of the unpublished claims (middle name, birthday, family moving, etc.) shouldn't be included as unverifiable, but it hardly feels like the sort of malicious BLP issue that would typically lead to a block. —  Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:43, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * There's some (less extensive) coverage of her time at General Mills that are behind softer paywalls, including the Minneapolis Star Tribune and NYT, USA Today. There's also some less extensive coverage in PBS, Princeton BOT website, Fast Company, Minneapolis/St. Paul Business Journal, etc.
 * There are also apparently more interviews than Tony referenced above, including one in Minneapolis/St. Paul Business Journal. So it does look like there are sources out there to help fill the void. Bloomberg is a tough paywall, though I can try to see if I can get access to the text of the Barron's piece. —  Red-tailed hawk (nest) 18:14, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Please explain the following content removals
User:Horse Eye's Back, I have a few questions.

Prononciation

 * 1) Pronunciation (I think it is convention that 2 syllable Hispanic names ending in O-N are pronounced with the accent over the O). The experts can confirm this. The first syllable of Ver rhyming with there and where I think are also fairly standard for hispanic names.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:56, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * 2) I should admit that I grew up pronouncing it in a very anglicized manner and am not sure if these pronunciation guides are for proper linguistic pronunciation or ways that a familiy may say a name. Also, with the press about reclaiming her heritage, I am not sure which way to go.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:17, 19 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Jumping in here after seeing this on COIN. As a spanish-speaker, yes, that's how the name is pronounced in Spanish; accent marks generally dictate the syllable that is emphasized. That being said, we generally don't include pronunciations unless they are sourced and verifiable; lots of people anglicize their names, and there are a variety of ways to pronounce the root surname.—  Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:40, 19 December 2022 (UTC)


 * In our family, we were taught to be vigilent about the accent mark on our name. On the first day of class in every class, when the name was inevitably pronounced VER-nun (like George Washington's home), we were taught to say ver-NÓN with an accent over the O. Thus, we were actually taught a bastardized spanish pronunciation (ver rhyming with were and NÓN rhyming with con or don). Every kid from the class of 1983 honors/AP track at Amherst Central High School, knows accent over the O and would often chime in with me on the first day of class. The only class where my name was ever pronounced correctly was Spanish class. Every spanish teacher I ever had in junior high school, high school and college always pronounced my name better than me (Even european (Spanish) spanish teachers). They harden their Vs, roll their Rs and pronounced it (ver rhyming with where and NÓN rhyming with known). The accent over our O was the big thing in our family. So we grew up with the family name (ver rhyming with were and NÓN rhyming with con or don). As mentioned above my sister has reclaimed her heritage publicly. I don't really know if correct pronunciation of our name is included. However, there have been social media posts from her regarding the accent. I am not sure if they are in her Twitter or Instagram timelines or if they were Instagram stories that have disappeared. I have to check with her. Surely, she will want some correction either to (ver rhyming with were and NÓN rhyming with con or don) or the proper (ver rhyming with where and NÓN rhyming with known) to keep our name from being pronounced VER-nun. It is definitely an important topic. I often tell spanish speakers that I don't even pronounce my name correctly and that I know the proper way, but can't even roll my Rs well. I might say something like "I say (ver rhyming with were and NÓN rhyming with con or don), but it is actually something like (ver rhyming with where and NÓN rhyming with known). Just get the accent over the O." Nothing pleases me more than to hear a spicy latina accent on my name. My sister was 5 years behind me at Junior High, High School and Princeton University. So some of her teachers may have known how to pronounce the name, but she also had lots of experience correcting people in life and definitely has posted about this subject.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:40, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * If it was me, I would say go with proper pronunciation. I have seen famous and less famous athletes go by one name and then change to the more proper spelling/pronunciation later in life, including Hakeem Olajuwon and Zavier Simpson. I will get information from her on this and try to find the social media posts where she has written about its importance. I think how to pronounce your name is an acceptable place for a WP:PRIMARY source.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:53, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Further thoughts. our name is probably as mispronounced as Lionel Messi's first name. Many Americans pronounce it as two syllables (LIE-nell) others incorrectly as three (LIE-oh-nell), whereas it is properly pronounced LEE-oh-nell. I think I usually say the wrong 3-syllable way and sometimes the really wrong way. I like the audio name element of his WP page.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:23, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * FYI, here are some examples of the 2-syllable hispanic name ending in ÓN, Bartolo Colón, Ricardo Rincón, Julián Simón.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:12, 21 December 2022 (UTC)


 * this podcast espisode by Alicia Menendez has a transcript where my sister discusses the accent over the O as a matter of heritage.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:05, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
 * User:Red-tailed hawk, there is sourced and verifiable content that the Linguistics of our last name is an issue of import. Do you have further comment on this or should I talk to some people at WP:LING?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:24, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Works for me. Seems like the sort of thing WP:ABOUTSELF is useful for. —  Red-tailed hawk (nest) 22:59, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Further from her social here and here.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:52, 16 January 2023 (UTC)


 * , thank you for taking a stab at the pronunciation of her last name. As stated above this is an issue of import. The question is whether the last name is suppose to be presented on WP in the most proper linguistic form or in the form most like the subject pronounces it. What you have added is what I believe is an encyclopedic presentation of the linguistic pronunciation of our family name and the way I might want it on my bio page if I ever become notable. However, I don't know whether WP is suppose to try to present the proper pronunciation or the personal pronunciation. As far as I know, my sister still pronounces the name in a differentiated manner (as discussed above).--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:49, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I think this would come under MOS:ID. It would be the way she pronounces it, so long as it is referenced.-- Laun chba ller 07:51, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not sure what referenced means in this respect. My sister is on lots of audio in the public domain for podcasts and interviews. FWIW, I still pronounce my name like we grew up saying it (like my sister). My wild-ass guess is that when my dad got off the boat in 1958, he insisted on having an accent on his second syllable and somehow it got Americanized as we have carried it on. There is some remote possibility that Vernóns in Panama say it like we do now, but I doubt it since my dad grew up in Colón, Panama, which is pronounced the way a 2-syllable hispanic name ending in ÓN seems to be normally pronounced. I'll dig through some podcasts and see.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:16, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I am going list what I find here
 * 1. August 9, 2020, 00:20/33:55 by Alicia Menendez for her Latina to Latina podcast (ver rhyming with where and NÓN rhyming with known)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:59, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * 2. May 4, 2022 00:20/57:51 by Don Yaeger for his Corporate Competitor podcast (VER-nun like George Washington's home), name generally spelled without an accent.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:59, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * 3. April 2019 00:23/37:51 by Dani Nierenberg for her Food Talk podcast (ver rhyming with were and NÓN rhyming with con)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:32, 3 September 2023 (UTC)


 * None of these are her saying it herself. When we last discussed this by text in December 2022 she asserted ver-NON (like turn the light on). However, I don't see video of her introducing herself.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:38, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Major

 * 1) College major (her EEB major goes along with her career expertise of Natural and Organic product)--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:56, 19 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Her college major is easily sourced to Princeton itself and I don't see a real issue with its inclusion; it should probably be included in the article.—  Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:40, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Activism/Advocacy
Also, What do you mean by "activist cats"? Do you mean Wikipedia categories related to her activism or something to do with feline welfare advocacy?—  Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:40, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) Activist cats (given her pronounced advocacy that we have already sourced).--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:56, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) User:Red-tailed hawk,


 * P.S. Categories not felines.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:45, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * P.P.S. One editor has completely removed any assertion of advocacy or activism here. I will let others reconsider this, but although I may have not hit the right tone with the language, I find it hard to imagine this should be completely removed.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:16, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I removed the sentence "Vernon has served as an advocate and activist for diversity and against unconscious bias" because it was sourced to one non-independent (interview) source which says "At times, Vernón even criticized the industry for engaging in unconscious bias...". Making occasional criticism is not the same as advocacy and activism. If you cannot see how the wording of the source does not support the claim that was being made, I would suggest your COI may be making it difficult for you to be objective. Melcous (talk) 22:23, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I think there are other sources for her advocacy and activism.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:28, 21 December 2022 (UTC)


 * In a discussion archived at Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_396, User:Rosguill stated that "The standard bar would be for an independent, secondary source to state in its own voice (i.e. not in a quote attributed to Vernón) that Vernón is an activist/advocate/advocates for/etc. Merely citing an example of something that could be considered advocacy is insufficient." Since WP is a tertiary source that summarizes secondary sources (rather than quotes secondary sources), it seems wrong that we say unless a secondary source uses the word advocate, we can not describe her as an advocate. How should we summarize separate sources that claim she is an "outspoken voice and champion for diversity" who has "called for more diversity". Is it improper to summarize these phrases as she is an advocate for diversity. I.e., can we as a secondary source summarize outspoken voice and champion of something that calls for more of that thing by mapping it to our summary word advocate? Also attention User:Melcous who seemed to overlook the phrases that may support advocacy.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:08, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
 * IMO, in most contexts a claim like outspoken voice and champion for diversity in a secondary source would be fine to interpret as "is an activist/advocate/etc." But context does matter, and based on the discussion above it seems more like the disagreement is about source independence and impartiality, not interpretation of claims. signed,Rosguill talk 00:23, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
 * User:Rosguill, thanks for playing your part in my effort to be a contributing COI editor by giving discerning feedback. As I noted, I am primarily sourceing the advocate for diversity claim to two sources:
 * "outspoken voice and champion for diversity" is sourced at This Nosh.com piece. My perspective was that an author wrote a story and asked my sister for comment on issues related to the story. It does not appear to be an interview.
 * "called for more diversity" is sourced at this Bizjournals.com piece. I think this one is a bit of a rehash that includes elements of the Nosh piece above and their own interview from 2.5 years earlier. However, it is not an interview and is in the voice of the author both in the opening paragrapth that says my sister has "championed diversity in the food industry" and later when it says she has "called for more diversity in the food and beverage industry".
 * I can't figure out what User:Melcous is referring to as non-independent (interview) source. I even believe User:Scope creep threw the Nosh source out with the bathwater. If a journalist is running a story and asks for comment, does it make it a non-independent source when you do comment and have a couple of responses quoted in the final publication.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:39, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Hm, I think I would lean towards not interpreting these statements as supporting the claim that she is/was an activist, as they are written in the context of her role as a company executive. My interpretation would be different if a source simply introduced her out of the blue as "an outspoken voice and champion...", but given the context of describing her time at General Mills I don't think it's appropriate to call her an activist based on the Nosh source. signed,Rosguill talk 18:52, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * User:Rosguill, I have already chosen not to claim she is an activist, but rather claim the sources support a role as an advocate (see current draft). I believe advocacy and activism are distinct activities. While considered review agrees the sources do not support activism, I do believe they support advocacy.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:02, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I think you'd be on a bit firmer ground rewording to has advocated rather than has been an advocate, as the latter can suggest a level of formality and continuity that isn't directly asserted in the source. signed,Rosguill talk 21:07, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. P.S. I have another somewhat relevant quote from the Honest Company's Chairman of the Board of Directors here who describes Carla's leadership as "fostering diverse and inclusive workplace cultures", which is not activism, but may support advocacy.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:13, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * User:Rosguill, you have not helped me to get a better understanding on the source issue. Is the Nosh article an interview or piece of journalism in which the author requested comment and quoted a few of the responses.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:13, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it's difficult to tell based on the one article in isolation, with an even chance that it is either form of coverage. While most of the information in the Nosh article is not explicitly directly attributed to the subject, it is entirely plausible that it was derived from a PR package as the article contains no critical analysis of the subjects. I note that Nosh appears to solicit PR related to new hires per this page on their website, and this page hosted by their parent company attests to a wide range of different promotional packages. IMO, the answer to this question is going to have to be based on an analysis of Nosh's coverage of executive personnel changes more broadly, and/or evidence that promotional pieces are clearly marked and disclosed when published by Nosh. signed,Rosguill talk 21:25, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh. Well if the point of the declined submission is that all the content is influenced by PR or interviews, that is an issue that I might not be able to overcome. I have viewed pieces like the Nosh piece like they are RS. I guess this gives me a specific query to go back to WP:RSN about.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:46, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Paywalls

 * Additionally, do you know how to get access to the paywalled sources?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:58, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * If you haven't tried yet WP:REREQ is usually the best place to start, and the response time is generally quite good.
 * You can also look at WP:WIKILIB although it's reputation is somewhat mixed and some users have found the process confusing; I can't speak for it myself as I've never used that resource; hope this helps. 74.73.224.126 (talk) 19:58, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Regarding paywalls, TonyTheTiger, I have a subscription to Wall Street Journal, so I should be able to view the Barron's source. I will try to find a way to access the Bloomberg source.--FeralOink (talk) 16:19, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Promotion
Should this land in mainspace and be a DYK candidate, linking COIN thread so reviewers have the full picture on the promotional goals of this. Star  Mississippi  17:39, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * User:Star Mississippi, you present yourself in a tone of someone who is either very experienced in the ways of WP:DYK and the main page or who like to seek contentious relations. DYK and the main page in general has a longstanding tradition of timing mainpage appearances in conjunction with dates that are meaningfully related to the subject of the article. My original goal of getting my sister's biography on the main page on a date meaningfully related to her biography is a positively meaningful thing to content creators for the main page (not an effort at promotion). If you are unfamiliar with this mainpage tradition, ask around with anyone who interacts with the main page. I do understand that you might not find being an female Afro-Latina CEO of a U.S. publicly traded company as a "groundbreaking" thing, but people familiar with the glass ceilings of the corporate boardrooms will tell you that a female, Afro-American or a Latino-American CEO of a U.S. publicly traded company is still fare less common than it should be and an individual who is all three is particularly rare. If you are just looking to stir the pot, ask around on that issue too. People who like to do so find me hard to really get going.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:08, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * ABF much? I am none of the above, although I've been here nearly as long as you are.
 * You declared that you want to promote your sister's new role. That's a wonderful thing to do as a sibling, but not as an editor and as I said there, it's shocking that an editor of your tenure doesn't know the rules around BLPs. That's all I have to say about this. Star   Mississippi  14:53, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Star Mississippi is correct, I advise you to apologize. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 18:24, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * What BLP rules are you talking about. Lest you forget how well I am aware of the issues, I asked a wide variety of WPs to take this on so that I would not have to be involved (after previously making directed requests for editorial attention). Then I sought advice on the best way to proceed since I feel she is notable and no one would take it on, which you can see before the discussion got cluttered. I am not just running around creating COI BLPs.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:53, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Content addition proposals
The WP:LEAD should have a sentence on Amazon and a sentence on Honest. I think Amazon, should mention that she was the highest ranking woman of color at Amazon. E.g. "During her 2021 and 2022 Amazon tenure, she served as the highest ranking woman of color at Amazon". Potential Honest sentence could be "In 2023, she became the rare female Afro-Latina CEO of a publicly traded U.S. company".-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:15, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Personal information
If a subject was interested in having certain vital statistics in their WP:BLP, could they submit to WP:VRT stating information such as the following:
 * 1) Legal name
 * 2) birthdate
 * 3) birthplace
 * 4) marriage date.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * No, all content requires published reliable independent sources. Theroadislong (talk) 22:52, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Oddly, the only birthdate I see online is wrong. My proud Scorpio sister was born on October 25th.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:50, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * So far the closest I can get to verifying this is that she was born in the week after October 22, 1970. I think she had to wipe a lot of her Instagram for personal/professional reasons, which makes this hard.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:50, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Hello
As I understand this process, I am suppose to only comment on the talk page of the draft, where other editors respond to issues that I may raise here on the talk page. However, editorial activity on this draft seems to have ceased and I am not getting any responses on this talk page. Is anyone still involved in the editing of this page that I can talk to here on the talk page.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:21, 10 January 2023 (UTC)


 * My understanding is that you're allowed to directly edit the draft, so long as you send it through AFC review. Is that not the shared understanding among the others? —  Red-tailed hawk (nest) 22:47, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes that's correct, edit away as much as you like whilst it is a draft, only after it has been accepted will there be restrictions. Theroadislong (talk) 22:50, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * This is a bit confusing. A couple of editors have talked about a need for me to disengage at WP:COI/N. Now, you are telling me to take the wheel. I had thought that I would be riding shotgun from the talk page while others drive the editing.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:35, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

, I had thought I would pursue feedback on specific issues on this talk and have others create and temper the prose. How does advice to disengage work with advice to drive the editing.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:42, 13 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Apologies for the delay, I was offline. Defer to @Theroadislong @Red-tailed hawk if they find your edits are fine as their opinions are as valid as mine. I'm not following this draft, so thanks for the ping. Star   Mississippi  22:09, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Our mother as a Hidden Figure
Although the publication seems to be an RS, I am not sure I can include the Hidden Figures content. Is this interview a sufficient source for the content to be included as it? Since Biz journals have an editorial structure do we assume the content is sufficiently varified by their publication?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:47, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I am going to bring this up at WP:RSN.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:25, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

More questions
Tony, I have spent a little time editing the article, and have more questions. As you see, I listed three above. I will continue using the same format, as that is how I have worked with COI editors on talk pages in the past, see here for an example. You can put your responses anywhere you want on this page, but please number each as ONE, TWO, etc. If you want to interleave with my questions, that's okay. If you want to make a separate new section, that's okay too.

Regarding the interview of your sister by Soledad O'Brien, that could be an acceptable source for a BLP, even if we have to use it in External Links.


 * Please ask your sister if she knows the name of the television program, the network, and the date of her interview by Soledad O'Brien. FOUR
 * Soledad O'Brien interview was of our mother.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:23, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I need biographical details for Carla's infobox, with WP:RS sources. We have some of this already in the article, but I would like to confirm that it is correct.

--FeralOink (talk) 09:16, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Confirm Carla's full legal name, her maiden name, her birthdate, and her place of birth. FIVE
 * My sister was born in Dunkirk, New York (possibly Dunkirk (town), New York &mdash; it is just a matter of where the Dunkirk Hospital is) when we were living in Fredonia, New York on October 25, 1970.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:12, 27 August 2023 (UTC)4
 * Her legal and maiden name are the same (as I understand it)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:14, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I am double-checking the spelling of her middle name, which is Berrill, but may have a single r, single l or an accent.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:17, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Middle name is Berril.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:17, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * When did Carla work for the Nature Conservancy, i.e. before or after her MBA? What sort of work did she do there? I want to include that in the career section. SIX

Talk page discussion
User:FeralOink, I was hoping to continue the discussion at User_talk:TonyTheTiger here TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:57, 27 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello Tony. Yes, that sounds good to me. I will leave a message for you here, much later today or tomorrow. FeralOink (talk) 12:47, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * User:FeralOink, I have added the picture, that I promised.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:03, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the long break! I'm back. The photo is lovely but it isn't the best for a Wikipedia bio. The reason I say this is that we need to see Carla being the primary person in the photo (it is a great photo of you!), and also the pizza slice obscures her a lot. I don't think this photo can be cropped to meet those criteria. If I hadn't seen other pics of her, I couldn't recognize her. Does she have a photo of herself (e.g. what she uses on LinkedIn, her badge photo from work, a good quality selfie) that she could upload to Flickr, or give permission for use to someone who has OTR access? The casual clothing and informal setting is just fine, but we need to see her primarily.--FeralOink (talk) 14:15, 31 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Please obtain a photograph of Carla per the criteria specified in my entry above of 14:15, 31 March 2023 (UTC) SEVEN


 * I found several images of Carla that would be suitable for inclusion on Wikipedia. They are from significant public events and are posted on accounts on Flickr.  Please see here at the National Urban League Centennial Conference (title "Carla Vernon, General Mills "Women of Power Awards Luncheon" 2010") and at the Milken Institute 2019 Global Conference, official page (title: The New Guard: Creating a Better Food Future, Carla Vernon, President of the Natural & Organic Operating Unit and Corporate Officer, General Mills). I checked the copyright / usage licenses. Both are "all rights reserved" so I'm doubtful about that but they are good examples of what is appropriate for a Wiki BLP image. This is probably the best to use, at Fortune Global Forum 2018 (title: Carla Vernón, President, Natural & Organic Operating Unit, General Mills) as it has a Creative Commons CC 2.0 by-NC-ND license.
 * Two of those photographs are copyrighted all rights reserved, so could NOT be used. Theroadislong (talk) 09:42, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Wow, thank you, Theroadislong, for replying so quickly! Yes, that makes sense. I am not an authorized Flickr uploader on Wikimedia Commons, so I don't know if I am allowed to upload the third image, the one with the CC by-NC-ND license. Alternatively, I recall that there are some different terms for images that are on en.Wikipedia only rather than Commons (then linked to via en.Wikipedia), so perhaps that will work? I need to recheck the CC reqs, or if you know, that would be great.--FeralOink (talk) 09:48, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I am going to try to finish editing the rest of the content on the article now, with the information that is currently available or that I could find sources for.--FeralOink (talk) 09:30, 16 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I did not receive any answers to my questions of March 31 from COI editor TonyTheTiger so I found answers myself, as well as additional sources. I inferred that Tony spoke to Carla, as I saw that her YouTube page had been re-done, so I was able to include an External Links entry as well. I focused on making improvements to sources per Reviewer Scope Creep's prior assessment of the article. I substantially rewrote the article and uploaded an image by Carla to Wikipedia (not Commons) after checking tags and permissions. None of the 3 images mentioned above met WP:MOS criteria for image use, i.e. CC by-NC-ND is not an acceptable license. I didn't include anything about advocacy or activism as there were no sources available. That information can be added later if the article is accepted at AfC. I cannot spend any more time on this, as I am unemployed and need to find a job ASAP. I enjoyed learning about Carla and her wonderful progress through the years, and will follow her achievements with The Better Company oops Honest Company... --FeralOink (talk) 07:30, 18 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I do think Fortune Global Forum would make for a better infobox image, but it appears to be improperly licensed.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:51, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Image deletion
A maintenance bot removed the infobox photo of Carla from the draft BLP, about an hour after I uploaded it. File:Carla-Vernon-Portrait.jpg To be more precise, it was removed by JJMC89 bot at 02:02, 18 April 2023. The reason given was that images with the tag I selected are not allowed in draft articles, only in mainspace. If anyone wants to see the version of the article with the image, it is here.

There is also a new notice on my talk page this morning, about the image. It says mages that are unused in any article in mainspace will be deleted deleted in 7 days. Pinging Theroadislong, and as an update for TonyTheTiger too: I will contact the editor who left me the message about deleting Carla's photo. If you want further details, or can assist, the deletion warning and the editor's name are

We can upload the photo again at a later point in time if necessary. I would like to retain it in the draft article, though, as it is important for a BLP. Also, as an Afc reviewer, I believe that inclusion of at least one image in a draft article submission is helpful.-- FeralOink (talk) 18:12, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Having an image has no bearing whatsoever on a reviewer accepting or not. Theroadislong (talk) 18:46, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
 * In addition to not be allowed to be used in drafts, non-free images of still living persons are pretty much never allowed per non-free content use criterion #1 (also see WP:FREER and item 1 of WP:NFC) of Wikipedia's non-free content use policy regardless of whether they're being used in an article. Such images are subject to speedy deletion per speedy deletion criterion F7. So, if you want to use an image of Vernon on Wikipedia, it's going to need to be either one that has been released into the public domain or one which has been released under an acceptable free license. The easiest way to obtain such an image would simply be for someone connected to Vernon to just take her photograph and then upload that photgraph to Wikimedia Commons (with the full EXIF data) before publishing it anywhere else. The photographer would be considered the copyright holder and would just need to agree to release their photograph as explained in c:Commons:Licensing. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:23, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
 * They tried that once, Marchjuly, but the subject of the BLP's face was almost entirely obscured by a piece of pizza. I suggested that an alternative photograph be used, somewhere above in this talk page. Thank you for your helpful explanation here!--FeralOink (talk) 19:27, 26 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Well, I never heard anything from Tony the Tiger so I am guessing that an updated valid image will not be forthcoming. I submitted the article to AfC back in April; it will be reviewed by an editor at some point in the future.  I won't summon everyone by user name, but I thank all the editors who assisted me and answered my questions about this draft BLP.--FeralOink (talk) 13:48, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * User:FeralOink, I have missed out on any discussion. Sorry. I have not been paying attention to this page. I have restored the only image we have of this person.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:15, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That image is not appropriate for a BLP. Carla's face is almost entirely obscured by a piece of pizza.--FeralOink (talk) 06:37, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Entirely obscured is a bit of an over exaggeration. Maybe everything below the lower lip is almost entirely obscured, but above the lower lip I kind of disagree with your assessment. Nonetheless, it is certainly not the best. When my sister visited me this summer, most of our joing pictures were with her camera and then she airdropped them to me. I will be visiting her in October. If we don't have a picture by then, I will get us one. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:04, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That sounds like the best idea of all!--FeralOink (talk) 14:20, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

First Afro-Latina CEO of a publicly traded company
Here is a source of her status as the First Afro-Latina CEO of a publicly traded company and here. I would like to use this fact for a WP:DYK entry. I am not able to incorporate it into the article myself.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:29, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * User:FeralOink, this main space version does not clarify my sister's stature as the first Afro-Latina CEO of a publicly traded company. There are multiple sources regarding this fact. Can we address this issue.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:59, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * User:Horse Eye's Back, you seem to continue to be monitoring this article as well. Feel free to jump in on this issue.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:59, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * User:Silver seren, please take a look at this issue.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:21, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I would use the first source rather than the second, in regards to reliability. Also, here's an additional source to use for the statement. Silver  seren C 15:24, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Dance
User:FeralOink, This whole sentence "Vernón learned ballet from the age of 9, as a student of Arthur Mitchell, and briefly performed professionally." is inaccurate. She was never a student of Mitchell and never performed professionally. Also, I thought WP:RSN had determined this source to not be a WP:RS.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:33, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I corrected that sentence. Thank you for mentioning it. Also, I listened to the entire 55 minutes of your sister speaking in an interview, in which she described her experiences as a ballet dancer. The article now represents what she said. The source is Chief Executive which is credible. Regarding your mother being described as a Hidden Figure in the article, and your Did You Know nomination: This BLP is about your sister. It already contains enough content about your mother. I am starting to feel uncomfortable, as these are COI issues. I feel badly, like I am being rude to you, or intrusive about your personal family matters. Please realize that I don't want to do that! I think it is better if I withdraw from further involvement on this article. (I do recommend that you listen to the interview of your sister! She is articulate and projects warmth; I can understand why she is a good business leader. I wish the interviewer hadn't been so gabby, and had let her speak more!)--FeralOink (talk) 14:15, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * User:FeralOink, I am a COI editor, someone who has normal non-COI authority needs to edit the article. You are suddenly talking about Hidden Figures. That has not been an issue I have raised with the main space version of the article. Let's focus on the current version of the article rather than any family issues you percieve. I thank you for your continuing involvement in the article to get it into main space. Now that the world can see the article, its content is far more important than when it was a draft.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:56, 30 August 2023 (UTC)