Talk:Carlo Gesualdo

Murderers
There has been research done via the painting with him in it that suggests very, very strongly that not only did he NOT kill the infant, but that the infant never existed, and was just a story made up to make him look worse. I'd not be surprised it this "father-in-law" business was the same thing, just a false tale made to besmirch him. There is good reason to believe that he did indeed feel guilt and agony from these deaths all his life.

I direct you to another site with Gesualdo information: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~rneckmag/gesualdo.html &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.50.115.55 (talk • contribs).


 * Yes: there are no records from official sources (as far as I know) for either of these two additional murders.  I added another line to that paragraph indicating exactly this.  Antandrus  (talk) 01:31, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

According to Watkins's biography, the murder of the son-in-law is pure hearsay; the quote cited is not verifiably contemporary, but rather from an account written in 1863 by C. Modestino, supposedly based on an original contemporary doc that is now lost. The main reason this tale continues to be circulated seems to be the large winged infant in the painting at S. Maria della Grazie, which some believe to be the murdered child. (As an aside, this article suggests that the painting was commissioned in 1600 after the death of Carlo's second documented child, although Watkins strongly believes the painting was commissioned much earlier - between 1592 and 1594, after which Gesualdo departed for an extended stay in Ferrara. I think this ought to be mentioned/corrected as well.) Epn10 (talk) 22:16, 4 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think you're right, and I don't have the Watkins book with me here. Go ahead and fix it with the information above if you like; I think it's useful to mention the tale, because it's so widely circulated, but also to mention that it's unverifiable.  As of the painting, I no longer remember where I got that date, and even if it was me who inserted it, so feel free to change that and cite Watkins.  Antandrus  (talk) 23:16, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Works
It would be greatly useful to find a catalogue with his books of madrigals. Where can we find it? --Leonardo T. de Oliveira 14:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I can add a works list to the article (I'll put on my to-do list--maybe tonight). In the meantime you can find a complete list at grovemusic.com (subscription access).  Unless I hear any objection I'll do the madrigals by book, i.e. I'll list the contents of each book with the publication date. Antandrus  (talk) 16:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Documents/References
Documentary "Gesualdo - Death for Five Voices" (1995) by Werner Herzog is not mentioned at all. //arl

Hmm
"...was an Italian music composer, lutenist, nobleman, and murderer of the late Renaissance"

IMO this sounds silly, I'll remove it because the very next sentence mentions the murders anyway, and THEN an entire section. Le the  11:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Does not only sound silly, but false, too. Wikipedia is not a court of law where the entire subject is to be reduced to one deed of his. He was a nobleman alright, a noted composer and lutenist by profession, and we are keeping him in our encyclopedias for the composer part. And that is where his primary identity labels end. The biography then must contain everything else that is important to the composer's life. Anapazapa (talk) 10:45, 16 January 2013 (UTC)


 * See WP:VPP where I've taken this up again. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:42, 22 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Mixing "murderer" in with the other epithets makes it sound like it was a profession. When a person is notable for crimes separate from their occupation, it reads better as separate sentences, eg:
 * —sroc &#x1F4AC; 18:08, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Birthdate
Could anyone please rectify the sentence about his birthdate? Exact data are found in http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Gesualdo (first sentence of "Biografia"). -- Gprini 12:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Sexuality
I question the relevance of this to an article about a musician, but the following website claims that Gesualdo dallied with both sexes. Hmmm. I suppose it is rather interesting when one takes into account how much of the article is devoted to scandal and murder, it does make for even more interesting reading:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/gesualdo.htm

I had no idea how to fit it into the article!

21:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I read all of the biographical matter available (Gray/Heseltine, Watkins, Grove) before writing the article, but do not remember seeing any reference to something like this. Unfortunately the author of that website does not give a source (all the other details in his article are correct, as far as I can tell).  Interesting ... Antandrus  (talk) 22:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Gesualdo's Locks
"Gesualdo had arranged with his servants to have the locks of his palace copied in wood so that he could gain entrance if locked." Yes. What does this mean, exactly? How would it help to copy your locks in wood? Should it say 'keys', perhaps, rather than locks?--JO 24 (talk) 18:24, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Hm, while I wrote the article, I didn't add that part. It's obviously wrong as is, and your suggestion is a good one.  I don't have the Heseltine book nearby, but what I remember is that he arranged to have the locks seem to latch, but yet be openable from outside; it might have involved another set of keys.  Antandrus  (talk) 19:03, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I guess it is meant that a lock's copy made of wood works with the same keys, so one would not easily notice the fraud, but may easily be destroyed when locked. But I can neither confirm nor reject this point, my sources say only that the locks had been corrupted. --FordPrefect42 (talk) 19:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is B-class; through some oversight, we do not know what (professionally), if anything, Gesualdo was doing in Naples (or when he's known to have moved there) before the murders. My full review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page.  Magic ♪piano 01:04, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, maybe I didn't make it clear. The town of Gesualdo isn't far from Naples; as a prince he had several palaces, including one in Naples.  I'm sure you could get from one to another on horseback in the sixteenth century without much trouble.  There's a picture of his Naples digs in one of the books I used to write the article but that was a library book, so I can't look it up again.  Gesualdo really wasn't a "professional" -- he didn't need a job, and while he devoted his life to music didn't need to make any money at it.  He was a melomaniac -- one obsessed with music -- (had that word in the article but people kept changing it idiotically to "megalomaniac" so I took it out) -- and other than hunting, screwing, murder, and self-flagellation, he had no professional life.  Antandrus  (talk) 01:41, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, none of what you say really surprises me, but it all could be a bit clearer in the article.


 * I think I forgot to mention this in the review -- the one-line paragraph about him being bipolar struck me as being out of place. The fact (especially the "widely believed" aspect, which really ought to be elaborated by specific mention from suitable sources) ought to be integratable into the text elsewhere, since there's plenty of discussion of his behavior and mental state.   Magic ♪piano 03:22, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, that sentence. I didn't put it there, and I think I took it out at least once.  It's certainly not in any source I've got.
 * This was a frustrating biography to write, because it keeps getting degraded by drive-by edits, which usually dumb it down or take out the juicy bits. And who had a juicier biography than Gesualdo?  I may put some of it back -- after all, I took it from Gray, Heseltine, and others -- unfortunately that was before I was using inline cites so I'd have to get the books again to put in precise refs. Antandrus  (talk) 03:30, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Madrigal "O malnati messaggi"
It was great to include a catalogue with his madrigals and its correspondence to each book (in madrigal repertoire it is not always indicated, and everything becomes free and detached). Thanks to Antandrus. But in this catalogue I couldn't find "O malnati messaggi", madrigal probably from the third book. Is there a reason for that? And isn't there an order for each madrigal book content? We can deliberately consider them in an alphabetical order? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leonardo Teixeira de Oliveira (talk • contribs) 19:56, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Relics
It said Gesualdo asked Cardinal Borromeo (his uncle) to send him relics (skeletal remains) of his uncle, which makes no sense. I removed "of his uncle Carlo." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.21.12.97 (talk) 21:24, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * They are two different people -- Carlo Borromeo died in 1584, was canonized in 1610, and Carlo Gesualdo was writing (over and over and over!) to Cardinal Federico Borromeo, shortly after the canonization. I can cite the Grove article if you like. Antandrus (talk) 22:57, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Killing of wife
Is it really "ridiculous" to describe the means by which he is alleged to have killed his first wife and lover (not to mention the possible other two)? If no details are known, shouldn't this be clearly stated instead (perhaps in a footnote), as this casts further doubt on the veracity of the allegations? I quite agree that Wikipedia is not a tabloid. But the method(s) of murder are not "gory details", they're just facts (if they actually exist). Martinevans123 (talk) 14:00, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Feel free to research the topic in reliable sources, and add content to the article accordingly. My reaction was entirely regarding the how tag, suggesting the article would be somehow incomplete without the gory details. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:19, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll dig out my back issues of Venosa Enquirer. We obviously need an "add gory tabloid details" tag. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:35, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Apparently, forensic psychiatrist Dr Ruth McAllister has used the murder as a case study. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:26, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Surely, there's enough material to be found for a separate article on the killings (never doubted that), like we already have a separate on some of his compositions, e.g. Tenebrae Responsoria (Gesualdo). For me the balance for the biography article would be that neither his music nor the extraordinary events of his life get most of the focus, for which the end of the current lede might be a good compass: "The fascination for his extraordinary music and his shocking acts go hand in hand" – the link you provided above to the I Fagiolini program shows the same approach splendidly: concert (Gesualdo's music) intertwined with "case study" analyses. That's the artistic approach, but for the encyclopedic approach the same kind of balance can apply: divide the attention more or less equally between music descriptions and biographical detail. More biographical detail could eventually be spinned out to one or more separate articles, like we have separate articles on some of the compositions too. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:08, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You must mean spun. But an interesting idea - I fear I might get caught in your web. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:09, 16 October 2015 (UTC) ... you can't beat a few musical beans

Assessment comment
Substituted at 10:56, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

The quote from New Yorker, etc.
I can keep reverting you all day. Per WP:HONORIFIC, we're not adding don to the subject's name. You haven't made a case for adding the quote from The New Yorker and you don't have consensus. Per WP:BRD it's time to discuss. Chris Troutman ( talk ) 17:37, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * this would be the appropriate place to discuss your proposed additions to the Gesualdo article. Tx. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:08, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Hey Francis Schonken, this is Smart Aleck. Like you said, we could start a discussion about my editions to the article here. I'm sorry for the delay. Smart Aleck (talk) 23:48, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Again, please use this talk page to explain your edits if you want to see them accepted. Regarding "But ...": this is generally avoided per the guidance found at WP:EDITORIAL, i.e. "but" is generally avoided unless a reliable source uses that wording in its description, and then it needs to attributed to that source. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:59, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Hello, it would be a good time and place now to discuss about my edits. First things first, you noticed that I added the word "but". Of course, I now get it and understand that I should be citing a reliable source that uses the word. By the way, one thing I think we should really discuss about on this page is my past edits on Gesualdo's killings of his wife and her lover. Smart Aleck (talk) 18:07, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

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Musician vs composer?
Why is "As a musician he is best known for writing intensely expressive madrigals and pieces..." to be preferred to "As a composer he is best known for writing intensely expressive madrigals and pieces ..."? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:37, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Lead reversal

 * Could you please clarify your reversal of my edit? The lead neither makes nor made any explicit statement about Gesualdo being acquitted. Furthermore, you may restore/insert that information, rather than reversing the changes that ensured that the lead is in line with policies such as WP:NPV and WP:WTA. Thank you in advance for responding. Toccata quarta (talk) 18:03, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Your version of the lead was not a correct summary of what is sourced in the body of the article. That body still has many issues that need to be addressed. I'm getting quite tired of drive-by editors, who seem not to care about this article and its content, but seem bent on keeping its lead as far as possible from a NPOV version of article content that can be sourced to reliable sources. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:19, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Whether or not someone is tired is irrelevant to the quality of the article or the lead, as I'm sure you'll agree. I'm an active editor of classical music and composer articles, so writing me off as a "drive-by editor" seems rather gratuitous, although that should not affect anyone's judgment of this article's prose and content, anyway.
 * Regardless, the question had to do with factual errors. Which ones did the new version of the lead contain? You appear to be a seasoned en.wikipedia editor, so you should know by now that phrases like "intensely expressive madrigals", "gruesome killing" and "his extraordinary music and for his shocking acts" are not consistent with WP:NPV (a policy you have just invoked) and WP:WTA. Toccata quarta (talk) 07:03, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Re. "the question had to do with factual errors" – which was not the main reason for my revert (for clarity, its edit summary reads: "what, again? no, was acquitted of murder"). If the reasons for that revert are clear (since, apparently, no further questions need to be asked about it), I'd suggest we concentrate on improving the article rather than having an elaborate talk page discussion about all sorts of unrelated questions. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:14, 5 October 2020 (UTC)