Talk:Carlos Gardel/Archive 1

1
I've corrected "Veinte años no es nada" translation - it was "Twenty years is nothing" and it means exactly the opposite!
 * It can be interpreted both ways, but since the tango goes: "sentir que es un soplo la vida, que 20 años no es nada.." its clear that it means "twenty years is nothing". -Mariano 10:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * See double negative. Xqsd (talk) 20:12, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "Veinte años no es nada" means exactly "Twenty years is nothing", and without the negative ("Veinte años es nada") the sentence would be considered ungrammatical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.231.192.63 (talk) 23:34, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Montevideo and the birth of tango
This page is bound to be jealously edited by Orientals... but giving Montevideo credit for the birth of tango would be a gross mistake. Please name Uruguayan tangos circa 1905, when Buenos Aires already had El entrerriano, El choclo, El apache argentino...... elpincha 22:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Totally agree. In fact, Tango already existed in Argentina when Uruguay was not even a country. The British Empire proposed the creation of Uruguay to prevent wars between Argentina and Brazil. And at that time we were already dancing Tango here in Argentina. It's just a matter of reading history and prevent trolls to edit the article with false information. Greetings.


 * Well, thats a serious mistake. First of all Tango was born in the late 1800's when Uruguay was already an independent country, in the lower-class neighbourhoods in Montevideo and Buenos Aires (called at the time Arrabales and Suburbios respectively). It was created exclusively as a dance music, and it used to be danced in taverns and that sort of places. What is more, tango, which is a highly african-influenced music, is also an African-term. Clearly Montevideo shares by far more african influence than Buenos Aires, as it was the port where slaves used to land. This can be supported by the higher amount of African-Descendant people there is in Montevideo compared to Buenos Aires. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Julian505 (talk • contribs) 23:09, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Nationality
Several users (mostly anons) are changing Gardel's nationallity from Argentine to Uruguayan at the beggining of the article. Though it is disputed wheather Gardel was born in France, Uruguay (or even Argentina), it is clear he was an Argentine citizen; he held Argentine documents (Cedula de Identidad, Libreta de Enrolamiento, passport, etc). Thus, I suggest we either leave the previous version on the disputes (Argentine tango singer during the inter-war years, though his birth-place has been largely disputed.) or remove the nationality from the opening paragraph all together, yet I believe it is imperative to name Argentine as his place of recidence, since he spent most of his time there, and is were he grew to become a star. Mariano (t/c) 10:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I cleaned up the most recent edit and now it says he was raised in Argentina, where he spent most of his life. That should leave everyone happy. Wesborland 12:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the Uruguay-born part is somehow controversial, since the birthplace is still an issue. Perhaps in Uruguay people already believe the controversy to be over, but people elsewere might have a different view on the topic. I suggest you take a look at, for instance this (in French), this, this (English) pages, or even the Wikipedia article on Toulouse. I guess then that not everyone would be happy... Mariano (t/c) 12:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The Toulouse article doesn't have Gardel on their "notorious births and deaths" list. As for the other site you mention, Berthe Gardes seemed to be his adoptive mother and Gardel apparently forged his last will to make her his biological one so that she could inherit him (according to argentine laws at the time, it makes sense). That's how the controversy was born in the first place. I'll add more info on the french versio, the documents they have and Berthe Gardes once I'm through with some research I was doing. Wesborland 22:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I was not defending the validity of those sites, just trying to show you that is not a consensed fact that he was born in Uruguay.
 * The Toulouse article affirms, in the Culture section, that "Carlos Gardel (Charles Gardes) was born in Toulouse in 1890 and his house is still in city.". I'm not sure why your removed the birth-year duality with the corresponding link to the Controversy section; I think that is really necesary. What's more, we could even use a format such as
 * Carlos Gardel' (11 December (1887 in Valle Edén or 1890 in Toulouse1) – 24 June 1935)
 * could be used.
 * By the way, don't forget to fill the edit summary when editing a page with a description of your edits and their reasons. Mariano (t/c) 09:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I find this allegations of both Argentineans and Uruguayans ridiculous. Gardel was born in France, as per other encyclopdedias, and his birth certificates. I came to open this article because I was curious to check if some Riverplaters would be vandalising (yes, vandalising I said it) this article. I lived in Uruguay for 6 years and I must say that allegations that he was born in Tacuarembó can only convince the "orientales". The so called birth certificate is very dubious. I propose this article to be locked until these people take a chill pill. --Pinnecco 13:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The matter of his birth is somewhat overrated here. Nobody, except uruguayans think that he was born there. It is more or less a known fact -to every serious scholar that has studied Gardel- that he forged an uruguayan nationality to evade military service. I think that the "controversy" should be stated in the real terms of it; that is, that uruguayans say that he was born in Uruguay, but mostly the rest of the world believe he was born in France. Nazroon 04:32, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You will need one hell of a source to put that affirmation in the article.

Just a question, the article reads "...although he never acknowledged his birthplace publicly...", but in the birth place controversy it quotes Gardel acknowledging his birthplace to two separate press releases. So, even though he could be lying, he did indeed acknowledge he was born in Tacuarembó.190.64.155.162 (talk) 17:12, 21 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I changed the wording just now. Rather than Gardel declaring his birthplace (with the assumption that he was telling the truth), I wrote that the newspapers reported him saying so. It is entirely possible for him to be born in France but tell newspapers he was born in Uruguay. Binksternet (talk) 20:13, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

¿Certificate?
This image isn´t the uruguayan birth certificate. As the article says, it's the registration at the Uruguayan embassy in Argentina in 1920. You can see this in the document, where says the date "8 de octubre de 1920".--24.232.95.194 00:52, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Some copy editing
I introduced the trivia section into the body of the article and made some minor style changes. I will translate stuff from the article in Spanish as I have time and hopefully this baby will start looking good. Brusegadi 01:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Moved comment from article
I've moved this paragraph from User:65.95.150.68 from the article text to this talk page:
 * Note to whoever wrote this page: Until 1967 when Erasmo Silva Cabrera (AVLIS) wrote his novel, "Carlos Gardel, el Gran Desconocido", nobody ever heard of Carlos Escayola or Maria Bentos de Mora. During the Sucession hearings in 1937 in Montevideo, Uruguay the Uruguayan court declared his mother Berthe Gardes, his universal beneficiary. Morover, Argentina, France and UNESCO have officially declared that Gardel was born in Toulouse, France on Dec. 29, 1890. That Gardel was born in Uruguay is simply a Myth supported by unfounded claims. Until this day, no-one has come forward to officially dispute the Montevideo Succession judgement.

 Glenfarclas  ( talk ) 21:37, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Gardel's Birthplace
I've brought Gardel's birthplace into accord with current documented information. Nationalist partisans need not tamper. Undocumented material will be removed. Tapered (talk) 04:38, 10 June 2010 (UTC)


 * No, actually all you've done is taken a controversy, read a book, and decided you agree with the authors. Then you declared the controversy closed, alleging "documented information," which you haven't discussed except to mention an offline, foreign-language source, and proclaimed your intention to edit-war rather than justify your claims or engage in further discussion.  Not good enough, not by a long shot.  Please review WP:POV.   Glenfarclas   ( talk ) 06:10, 10 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The government of Uruguay agrees. For the last 73 years. Please leave the birthplace question alone. The facts rule. He was a great singer. This is not a forum for partisanship. I just left intact an edit about the FIFA 1954 championship game I didn't enjoy reading. I investigated. The edit remained. Because the facts ruled. Tapered (talk) 02:03, 24 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Update. It would seem that for the moment the juvenile morons who insist that Gardel's birthplace is subject to debate will have their way @ this English version of Wikipedia. There is only 1 obscure book in English w/ info on Gardel. If anyone has the $, could they please buy this book fr/ Amazon (or elsewhere). & cite the information, so that these Orly Taitz clones can find something else to while away their lives? Thanks! http://www.amazon.com/People-Acquired-Argentine-Citizenship-Naturalized/dp/1158024584/ref=sr_1_60?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294270132&sr=1-60 Tapered (talk) 23:46, 5 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The Magazine UNESCO Courier, 25 years ago documented Gardel's French birth. See footnote 7. For Wiki purposes, end of controversy. A very reliable source. Tapered (talk) 00:05, 14 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Yet another user, this time without documentation or rationale, has interjected the red herring of "controversy" about Gardel's birthplace. I've reverted it. Please check the UNESCO magazine article cited in the Reference section.Tapered (talk) 18:46, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Let the 'uruguayan Gardel' version be exposed
If you put the birth place like the spanish version (es.wikipedia.org/Carlos_Gardel)??? "Según algunos investigadores nació en Toulouse, Francia, el 11 de diciembre de 1890, y, según otros, nació en Tacuarembó, Uruguay, el 11 de diciembre de 18875 "According to some researchers, Gardel was born in Toulouse, France on December 11, 1890, and according to others, was born in Tacuarembo, Uruguay, on December 11, 1887" and that is the end of discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Santiis09 (talk • contribs) 05:14, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

You should shame on you all. There are so many evidences of 'uruguayan Gardel' as 'french Gardel' but you support only your known version. Just because a fact is less known than the myth about the fact itself? In fact, UNESCO can be lead to a mistake as many others, so what? Think about Molly Pitcher's myth and I hope you all will rethink about versions about controversial facts. Vitorvec (talk) 17:04, 7 December 2011 (UTC)


 * It is very simple: The sources for the French birth are superb, but the sources for the Uruguayan birth are poor quality. Binksternet (talk) 18:07, 7 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, sure. There are so many Gardel statements claiming his Uruguayan born, school registers, et cetera. Now I just remember 'Contact', a movie with Jodie Foster. That kind of sources for the French Gardel can also explain the Uruguayan one, like scholars who sustain that two kids were Gardel. And one took other's identity, like the Iron Mask Man tale, and why not? See http://gardeluruguayo.blogspot.com . Vitorvec (talk) 21:31, 17 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The controversy about his birthplace is given plenty of weight in the article, so no one is hiding the issue. Since the sources of French origin are stronger, that is used as the given, with Uruguayan origin as an alternative.  I don't see the issue other than personal opinion/preference over Wikipedia policy.MartinezMD (talk) 22:35, 17 December 2011 (UTC)


 * No need to use an unreliable blog URL to try and put some Uruguayan text into the article. Better would be to use university professors or the equivalent, writing in scholarly books, saying that Gardel was born in Uruguay. Even then we would say that the widely accepted mainstream position is a Toulouse birth and the minor viewpoint is a Uruguayan birth, according to Professors X and Y. Binksternet (talk) 22:49, 17 December 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not fair from you, man. I take these links because I can't put the books here. But anyway, you should think about your biased point of view about 'unreliable blog URL'. Once again, these people are scholars too and they wrote books about that story, like Martina Iñiguez (born in Corrientes, Argentina, living in 'Gran Buenos Aires' and a member of 'Academia Porteña del Lunfardo') Anyway, happy new year to all. Vitorvec (talk) 11:01, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

If you put the birth place like the spanish version (es.wikipedia.org/Carlos_Gardel)??? "Según algunos investigadores nació en Toulouse, Francia, el 11 de diciembre de 1890, y, según otros, nació en Tacuarembó, Uruguay, el 11 de diciembre de 18875 "According to some researchers, Gardel was born in Toulouse, France on December 11, 1890, and according to others, was born in Tacuarembo, Uruguay, on December 11, 1887" and that is the end of discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Santiis09 (talk • contribs) 05:18, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * No, in this case the better proof is from France. The Uruguayan story is supported by documents that were created long after Gardel was born. Binksternet (talk) 15:20, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Was Carlos Gardel a composer?
Some sources mention him also as a composer, some just as a singer. It's really hard to tell what is reliable. Also the information on the web is inaccurate, maybe except the one in Spanish, but unfortunately I can't read Spanish, only English.

So let's put for example "Por Una Cabeza", it is obvious that Gardel sings the composition, but did he also compose it himself? I've never heard of him as a composer, although I know he is a great tango singer and actor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.228.120.126 (talk) 12:48, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Article hacked
I'm really sorry about posting this here, but I could not find another way to do so. Someone put "- PLEASE THİS klick !!!!!!!" at the bottom of the article, and it was impossible for me to eliminate it. Please, someone with more experience and knowledge fix it. Thank you for your time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrJuano (talk • contribs) 14:46, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Done 68.193.247.210 (talk) 14:57, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Family
Ever married? Any children? MartinezMD (talk) 00:49, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Manner of Death
I unfortunately don't have a reference at hand, but I've always had the understanding that Gardel did not die in what is considered to be an "ordinary" crash. Rather his plane was taxiing down the runway, and for reasons unknown, it veered to one side and collided with two parked planes with their engines running. Planes and occupants were hacked to pieces. Does anyone have a reference that either supports of refutes this claim?RogerInPDX (talk) 21:43, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * There is a lot of reprinted information on the internet. Best I can come up with is a story written by Steve Huey of Rovi/All Music Group. He doesn't list his source. http://www.allmusic.com/artist/carlos-gardel-p78844/biography MartinezMD (talk) 23:21, 5 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I have at least been able to correct my own faulty memory and can confirm that only two planes were involved in the collision, not three. There are several versions of what happened (what a surprise), but the one that seems to come up the most often is that the two pilots not only worked for rival airline companies, they were personal rivals as well.  They may have been involved in a deadly game of "chicken" which went badly wrong.  Another possibility is that the airport was known to be subject to sudden wind gusts, and yet another is that the pilot of Gardel's plane was inexperienced flying multi-engine aircraft, which might have accounted for his plane going out of control in either of the above scenarios.  Unfortunately, hard facts are extremely difficult to track down. RogerInPDX (talk) 21:41, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The 1958 book The Ford Story: a pictorial history of the Ford Tri-motor 1927–1957, has this description on page 136: "Ernesto Samper, famous Colombian pilot and co-founder of the Colombian Air Line SACO, was piloting one of the Fords which, in taking off, struck a SCADTA Ford. Carlos Gardel, movie actor, and ten musicians accompanying him were also killed. Medellin is 200 miles northwest of Bogota. The two planes involved could be any two of the following: 5-AT-1, 6, 104, 111, 112, or 114." The book cites its source as The New York Times, front page, 25 June 1935.
 * If you have an account with NYT, or if you want to pay four bucks for the story, you can see the contemporary story under the headline "Argentina Mourns Gardel.; KILLED IN PLANE CRASH."
 * Here's a sloppy Google translation of a page at El Colombio.com, one which includes death details such as the name of the doctor who performed the autopsy.
 * The Life, Music, and Times of Carlos Gardel
 * Sloppy Google translation of the Spanish Wikipedia article about the crash.
 * Hope that helps! Binksternet (talk) 00:15, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, that is all very interesting information. The lone survivor of Gardel's plane remembered a loud noise from under the plane (a tire blowing out, maybe?), and the pilot of the SCADTA plane may have had his vision obstructed by tall weeds or reeds, and advanced farther into the taxi strip than he should have. The movements of planes on the ground were not controlled by radio from a control tower, but by a series of colored flags that were controlled by the individual airlines' offices at the airport. Of course, none of this is conclusive, and I don't know if these translated sources are good enough to be cited in the main article. RogerInPDX (talk) 05:42, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I left out another point, which is that Gardel's plane may have been overloaded or nearly overloaded with the weight of passengers, their luggage, fuel, and a number of reels of 35mm movie film. From my own background I know that it would have been the old nitrate (celluloid) film which produced a near-explosion when it caught fire. And yes, of course I know that we can't cite my personal knowledge in an encyclopedia article. RogerInPDX (talk) 05:58, 17 December 2011 (UTC) ‎
 * Yes, the accounts emphasize the film reels because everyone knew in those days how unsafe nitrate film would be. It was common knowledge, not worthy of a cite to reinforce it. The plane was heavily loaded which was probably why it could not hold enough fuel to go non-stop—too much fuel and it would be too heavy. It had to make that stop for fuel. Binksternet (talk) 07:49, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Editing like the official spanish version in Wikipedia
"Según algunos investigadores nació en Toulouse, Francia, el 11 de diciembre de 1890, y, según otros, nació en Tacuarembó, Uruguay, el 11 de diciembre de 18875 "According to some researchers, Gardel was born in Toulouse, France on December 11, 1890, and according to others, was born in Tacuarembo, Uruguay, on December 11, 1887"

You most be partial in this and you can't said he is from Frances, because nobody knows, soo in the spanish version saids '''WE DONT KONW WERE HE BORN, ¿URUGUAY OR FRANCE?. WE DONT KNOW.''' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.52.147.143 (talk) 15:23, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

There is so much wrong information, like "Years Active" in the oficial version (the spanish) saids: "1912 - 1935" and in this version saids 1917-1935.

He's label was 1912 - Columbia / 1917 - Odeón / RCA Victor - 1935. And of course the births place, here is the copy of the spanish version, i will not translate the article.

PD: In this patetic english version saids: "Reporters often wrote that Gardel was Uruguayan, born in Tacuarembó. In the newspaper El Telégrafo (Paysandú, Uruguay, October 25, 1933), Gardel was reported as saying, "I'm Uruguayan, born in Tacuarembó" ["soy uruguayo, nacido en Tacuarembó"]." this is horrible and dosent have any validation. Is more realistic this: es:Carlos Gardel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Santiis09 (talk • contribs)


 * This isn't the Spanish Wikipedia. I have removed the Spanish version--you could link to it. Mind that the infobox is edited according to our MOS--I have just restored a more acceptable version of it. Drmies (talk) 17:33, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Gardel certainly said "soy uruguayo, nacido en Tacuarembó" ("I am Uruguayan, born in Tacuarembó".) The problem with this statement is that it shown to be false by birth records in Toulouse. Wikipedia does not place anybody's word about their birth higher than the UNESCO Courier article page 11, "Tango Time" (the same article is hosted at Gardelweb, much smaller file size), and primary source documents online. Binksternet (talk) 19:00, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

The web Gardelweb was made by argentinians, i dont belive what is there becouse is not partial, they said, "Lays and inventions of Uruguayans" there is not invention, because there are realistics and oficial information about his born in Tacuarembó,so much researchers study that, and is ofencive for Uruguayans. Of course the argentinians are like childrens "if i don't have, nobody has". Sorry but i dont speak verry well english — Preceding unsigned comment added by Santiis09 (talk • contribs) 01:39, 20 March 2012 (UTC)