Talk:Carlos Latuff/Archive 4

RFC : Should the antisemitism bit be mentioned in the lede
.... Following is the entire RfC discussion.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:56, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Should the statement that some of Latuff's cartoons have been called antisemetic be included in the lede? 15:26, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Survey

 * include WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY and WP:WEIGHT. These are well sourced allegations, covered in detail in the body of the article. The lead should serve as a mini-article and cover all major controversies. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:26, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * don't include per WP:BLP and WP:NPOV. Pikolas (talk) 20:44, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * don't include pr Pikolas, Huldra (talk) 21:31, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * include The accusations of antisemitism against Latuff's cartoons are a major issue in this article. The WP:LEAD exists to summarize essential facts (including controversies).--Averysoda (talk) 02:47, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * don't include Per WP:LEAD it should be reported (as a controversy, not a fact) according to the material in the article. But the material in the article should before be challenged. Half can be immediately removed because it reports false information, is not from wp:rs or is not linked with Latuff's alleged's antisemitism. Then the attacks should be put in the context of the propaganda war in which any virulent opponent to Irael's policy, such as Latuff, is attacked for antisemitism. Given the huge controversy around this, compliance with WP:BLP is more important from my point of view and should be predominant. Pluto2012 (talk) 04:14, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Include per V and LEAD, his alleged antisemitism is widely reported and appears in this article. The lead should summarize the body. It should naturally follow BLP in how it's worded, but BLP doesn't mean "no criticism of a living person". No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:12, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Do not include any form of one-sided/biased form of this allegation. I believe the variant before revert and protection presented both sides and was rather neutral, in this form I would support inclusion. --Denniss (talk) 19:08, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Do not include As per WP:LEAD and Pikolas' observations. LavaBaron (talk) 07:01, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
 * include. Latuff is well known for this. Flayer (talk) 10:14, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Include. It is well supported by sources that antisemitism is allegedly one of the main themes of his works, it is covered in the article and the lead should summarize it. &#8220;WarKosign&#8221; 06:15, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Include only if his repudiation of the charge is in the same sentence, i.e. 'Latuff's cartoons, which often use the analogy between the Holocaust and Palestinians, have been accused of/interpreted as/ anti-Semitism/antisemitic. Latuff has dismissed the charges as 'a strategy for discrediting' criticism of Israel.' I agree with Denniss It's a matter of WP:BLP and WP:NPOV. As No More Mr Nice Guy correctly states WP:Lede summarizes the article, and the article has a section on the accusations and his repudiation of them.Nishidani (talk) 09:52, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
 * include - the lead must summarize the article, per WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY. This article has a well sourced and lengthy section about the controversy (in fact, it is the largest section of the article, and arguably the source or the subject's notability.) Per WP:WEIGHT, a line in the lead that says "his cartoons have been described as anti-Semitic, a charge he rejects" is required, per policy, and does not violate WP:BLP, which states "If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it" . All Rows4 (talk) 16:14, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Include. It is supported by sources. Ykantor (talk) 19:43, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * include due to the high quality of the sources. ZinedineZidane98 (talk) 13:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Include per Nishidani. In order to preserve neutrality, some balance should be struck in the lead, so leaving just a remark on anti-semitism would introduce undue bias, especially since many people stop reading after the lead. If you introduce a construction like that demonstrated by Nishidani, I think it would be fine. Then the reader is left to make the decision. Note: I came here via Legobot. - Pax  Verbum  00:46, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Include. Many people share that belief and it should be stated as a quote from someone who claims it. StudiesWorld (talk) 05:26, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Include, using both a short statement describing the allegations, and Latuff's rejection of the charges. This complies with WP:LEAD and WP:BLP. Brad Dyer (talk) 16:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Include: The lead should summarize the article. Israel-Palestine is a major theme of Latuff's work. With such a large section on antisemitism, it would be silly to not include it in the lead. The section should be summarized fairly, with not only the criticism and Latuff's response, but also, for instance, the quote by Joel Kotek in The Forward, stating that his message is anti-Israel, rather than anti-Semitic. The current formulation in the lead, "Despite Latuff himself describes his work as controversial", should be eliminated. "Despite" is editorializing, "controversial" is weasel word, and anyway being controversial has nothing to do with being anti-Semitic. Kingsindian &#9821;&#9818; 16:47, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Include in LEAD (part before TOC) but NOT in LEDE (first sentence). It's fine in the fourth sentence where it is now. —Мандичка YO 😜 03:51, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Threaded discussion
Per the fairly obvious consensus developing above, I am restoring the content, using Nishidani's proposed wording. The RFC remains open, and if consensus develops to the contrary we can remove then. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:43, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I deleted the "controversial" line in the lede, because I felt it was redundant to the more specific allegations of antisemitism. However, we could merge that sentence into Latuff's response, saying "Latuff says his cartoons are controvercial but..." but that runs into WP:SYNTH perhaps. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:45, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Per source Latuff himself recognized his work as controversial (it's not necessarily related to the accusations of antisemitism, which he denies).--Averysoda (talk) 17:48, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Implemented RfC on lead for anti-Semitism
I have implemented RfC. Included opposing viewpoints and named some of them. Removed of "Despite his work being controversial" (being controversial has nothing to do with being anti-Semitic) - this was added by a sockpuppet anyway. Kingsindian &#9821;&#9818; 11:14, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

"Arab-Brazilian"
As far as I know, one needs a self-identification to use the term "Arab-Brazilian". Latuff's grandfather was Lebanese, but that is not enough. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Kingsindian &#9821; &#9818; 18:21, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just added archive links to 3 one external links on Carlos Latuff. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070619194913/http://www.fractaldesignz.orcon.net.nz/images/latuff/Bush_is_celebrating_911_by_Latuff2.jpg to http://www.fractaldesignz.orcon.net.nz/images/latuff/Bush_is_celebrating_911_by_Latuff2.jpg
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070619194913/http://pal.or.kr/bbs/data/al_free/The_George_Bush_Barbershop_by_Latuff2.jpg to http://pal.or.kr/bbs/data/al_free/The_George_Bush_Barbershop_by_Latuff2.jpg
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070816023608/http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk:80/ahamadeh2.htm to http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/ahamadeh2.htm

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Anti-Semitism section
The image formatting in this section is, to put it quite bluntly, crap. There are four images supposed to be of work others have interpreted as antisemitic, all with crap captions if captioned at all. It's an overdose of images. There is no inclusion of his work in which he he lambasts nazis and tells them that the Palestinian cause doesn't need their help &#39;&#39;&#39;tAD&#39;&#39;&#39; (talk) 03:22, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually it's two images others have interpreted as antisemitic and two where he says people cry antisemitism too much. That seems balanced. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:31, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with NMMNG. Pluto2012 (talk) 18:17, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Gallery Section
...needs a major revamp. There are many more images than on other political cartoonists' pages, and many of the captions are just straight descriptions rather than supplying context or background information.199.168.233.220 (talk) 21:35, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070313204150/http://www.irancartoon.com/120/holocaust/ to http://www.irancartoon.com/120/holocaust/

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External links modified
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I have just modified 4 external links on Carlos Latuff. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added tag to http://www.infoshop.org/graphics/latuff/main.php?g2_itemId=1051
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120405135027/http://www.arabawy.org/2011/07/16/no-military-tribunals-2/ to http://www.arabawy.org/2011/07/16/no-military-tribunals-2/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091025223026/http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2003-4/general-analysis.htm to http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2003-4/general-analysis.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101023081518/http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2003-4/brazil.htm to http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2003-4/brazil.htm
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://jcpa.org/article/ahmadinejad-iran-and-holocaust-manipulation-methods-aims-and-reactions/

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