Talk:Carlos Monsiváis

Recommend deletion of section on Political Involvement
While interesting (more as an anecdote), the long paragraph describing Monsiváis's attendance to a concert by a Cuban singer on behalf of Puerto Rican independence is not truly informative or useful. I suggest it be removed or rewritten with a more extensive analysis of Monsiváis's political involvement. --Lawrlafo (talk) 21:00, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * This is the text I removed:
 * ==Political Involvement==
 * Recently, on January 26, 2006, Monsiváis joined other international figures and Latin American authors such as Nobel-laureate Gabriel García Márquez, Mario Benedetti, Ernesto Sabato, Thiago de Mello, Eduardo Galeano, Pablo Armando Fernández, Jorge Enrique Adoum, Luis Rafael Sánchez, Mayra Montero, Ana Lydia Vega and singer/composer Pablo Milanés, in demanding sovereignty for Puerto Rico. This coalition added their names and signatures to the Latin American and Caribbean Congress' Proclamation for the Independence of Puerto Rico, which approved a resolution favoring the island-nation's right to assert its independence, as ratified unanimously by political parties hailing from twenty two Latin American countries in November 2006. Galeano's demand for the recognition of Puerto Rico's independence was obtained at the behest of the Puerto Rican Independence Party (PIP). --Lawrlafo (talk) 21:57, 19 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The text has been present and cited for quite awhile going back to 2009 as per your original note. When I visited this article a month ago, I confirmed with something I was doing on Gabriel Vargas. To remove it would be to gut this subject because his like was interwoven with just about every aspect of Mexican life. He spanned generations and like Frida mixed with rich and poor, famous and infamous but never hesitated to speak his mind about politics as reflected in his essays or chronicles. moreno oso (talk) 00:45, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


 * In a nutshell, disagree.moreno oso (talk) 00:48, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Moreno oso, my objection is not to the content but to the fact that the exact same text appears or appeared in numerous Wikipedia articles. Someone with interests in Puerto Rican independence pasted the same paragraph in many articles (numerous authors listed as "international figures and Latin American authors"). I object to the same text appearing repeatedly in different articles, not to the spirit of the paragraph. Sorry that I did not make this clear above.--Lawrlafo (talk) 08:32, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Specifically, the same text appears in: Eduardo_Galeano, Jorge_Enrique_Adoum, Mayra_Montero, Ana_Lydia_Vega, and Pablo_Milanés, besides Carlos_Monsiváis.--Lawrlafo (talk) 08:50, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Disagree as you will see from this post on my talkpage. I don't know why you are hard-over on this.
 * Copying and pasting comments is up to the editor. If you look at the generation he is compared to, Pacheco etal, I posted the same comment to two other articles as they don't have much info or even citations in them. As for Monsiváis, at the time of edit, I did not have much on his interaction as a political powerbroker/activist. But, reading his obit led me to believe he was much more involved. It became clearer as I delved into the other cited articles that what he did as a signatory is what the man was all about. Unfortunately, unless one were to delve into and immerse oneself into his bio, you're not going to find detailed sections like that. Check that. As I wrote that last sentence, I realized that I did another legimate "cut-and-paste" into his article about a month ago when I first visited it. He helped fund a museum and in days since his death, I have seen a bit more on what is going on with donation and the museum. What started off as a two citation from another article to his, helped give him a citation that at the time was more current than anything else and which did give his article another citation as he had few prior to his death. BTW, for several of his awards, I also posted a citation that in some cases is the only documented citation for those articles. Want to turn to turn me in for that?
 * Additionally, that visit allowed me the chance to look over his article. I "proofed" everything in the article and decided I would revisit it hopefully to flesh it out. Too bad I didn't get around to that until after he died.--moreno oso (talk) 10:25, 24 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I was asking a procedural question. You and other editors have confirmed that it is OK to cite the same paragraph verbatim (word per word) in numerous Wikipedia articles, even if it might show a lack of imagination. In the case in question, a whole paragraph on someone signing a letter of support seems disproportionate (at least to me). Thank you for your work on this article.--Lawrlafo (talk) 22:19, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Why cutting and pasting citations is a good thing
There is another point I wish to make and one that I am still researching. It comes from the "50s generation" as well. If you read his Spanish wiki article, that statement was one of the lede hooks and deeply shaped him and others. In essence from reading the Spanish wiki and his obits, he spanned two generations, about 80 years, of Mexican history to include the Golden Age of Mexican cinema. In fact, a direct comment that was deleted by another zealous editor proves that he had his hands in shaping or being part of another age as well. I don't know who came up with the magazine, Medio Siglo, but it is now apparent to me that its name came directly from the Spanish wiki which has now changed. It read something to the effect "Generación de cincuentas" (50s generation).

In a nutshell, the "Generación de cincuentas" may have been the "golden age of Mexican literary thought" or "golden age of Mexican thought" (I forget the fancy German words for "thought movement").

No family and a love for cats
As I read his bio, it disturbed me that I could find no mention of marriage or children. Elena Poniatowska is cited in one article as being a great friend of his and their friendship is almost 50 years plus. She was quoted as saying he had nephews only. Somehow that got picked up and in another article I found, information about his love for cats became apparent. In fact, the Spanish wiki has a whole section cited on that. Editors need to be careful in interpretting the "50s Generation" or even anything else similar. Did it arise overnight? No. Did it only start with 1950 and end with 1960? No. There are events that led up to it and which influenced it. Likewise, just as Monsiváis spanned generations, people like Cantinflas and Pedro Infante left their marks too. Infante may have died an early death but his legacy stretches on. Slashing another editor's work just because of literacism is not a great idea. moreno oso (talk) 10:53, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * To be clear on Infante, while he may have died early, he still contributes to the Mexican cinema, pysche and fanbase. To dictate by deletion fiat that his contributions ended with his death and could not stretch beyond is baffling and wrong. moreno oso (talk) 11:00, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It is well known that Monsiváis was gay, which is why they put a rainbow flag on his casket. He was a discrete man and did not talk much about it. Several articles have come out on the topic such as "Cubre bandera gay féretro de Carlos Monsivais" and "Duelo en México por deceso del escritor Carlos Monsiváis".--Lawrlafo (talk) 22:13, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that tidbit - not.moreno oso (talk) 22:20, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

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