Talk:Carly Simon

Carly Simon was born in 1943
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61457&h=4431959

https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/61457/images/47769_b353834-00821?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=ecacf2c76206552dad5d662bdbb09ab7&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dpj1&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=4431959

The birth records prove she was born in 1943. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WhatsTheTruth00 (talk • contribs)


 * Wikipedia is here to tell the reader a summary of what has been published in mainstream literature. It's not here for you to pursue private investigations of birth data. The policy WP:DOB throws ancestry.com out as a source for a living person. Binksternet (talk) 23:10, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Rather than being an issue of WP:NOR, this is issue of WP:CONFLICTING. The majority of WP:RS, and most recent sources, indicate a birthdate of 1943. The earliest records on Ancestry (birth record, 1950 census record), just happen to confirm this. The Encyclopedia Britannica source is clearly in error, and this should be added to WP:EBE.--Samp4ngeles (talk) 03:05, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Request for comment: age
Birth records prove she was born in 1943:

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61457&h=4431959

'''Name: 	Carly Simon Birth Date: 	25 Jun 1943 Birth Place: 	Manhattan, New York City, New York, USA Certificate Number: 	21212

She claims 1945, but IMDb and Goodreads list her true age:

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0800089/

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/173740.Carly_Simon

Those are not dispositive, but the birth record is.

WhatsTheTruth00 (talk) 21:38, 19 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Neither IMDB, ancestry.com nor GoodReads meet Wikipedia requirements for sourcing, and you were told back in July (in the section above) that we don't engage in private research over such questions (or anything else for that matter. Find a source meeting WP:RS, or forget about it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:51, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
 * OP indef'ed for BLP vios. Meters (talk) 03:38, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Rather than being an issue of WP:NOR, this is issue of WP:CONFLICTING. The majority of WP:RS, and most recent sources, indicate a birthdate of 1943. The earliest records on Ancestry (birth record, 1950 census record), just happen to confirm this. The Encyclopedia Britannica source is clearly in error, and the 1945 birthdate should be removed and noted in WP:EBE.--Samp4ngeles (talk) 03:07, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree. 1943 seems as the most reliable date. 1945 can be mentioned in a footnote but so far there os nothing that makes that date as reliable as 1943. DrKilleMoff (talk) 22:27, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Since the majority of and the most reliable the sources supports 1943, is there really any need to list "or 1945" as well? DrKilleMoff (talk) 00:57, 2 November 2022 (UTC)


 * I agree, 1943 is clearly correct and I don't think it's necessary to have 1945 listed. If anything, maybe a note could be placed next to the year, similar to Woody Allen's birthday note of Nov 30-Dec 1. It could say something along the lines of "1945 was widely published before 2022, but 1943 is Simon's year of birth according to New York City birth records." I don't know if that would be necessary, but it might make a nice reference point since so many people are familiar with 1945. Just a thought. Cryptkeeperfun (talk) 11:50, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Everyone seems to agree 1943 is the only year that should be listed, so I have removed 1945. Cryptkeeperfun (talk) 00:29, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Ancestry.com link leads nowhere. Also, you can't see the birthdate and it is not a reliable source just as Goodreads (doesn't show page number or content) and IMDB (anyone can enter a birthdate there) are not, as well.  Is there a link to her birth certificate rather than just a number?  95% of the google searches I've done lead to her birthdate being June 25, 1945.  Please provide citations that verify.
 * Thank you Landplane123 (talk) 02:33, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Landplane123: I think the source of this discrepancy of birth years is Carly Simon's entry in Encyclopedia Britannica, which gives 1945. It has been documented that Encyclopedia Britannica contains errors that have been corrected in Wikipedia. In addition to the British Film Institute biography, the Associated Press reported that Carly Simon would be 79 on June 25, 2022, which implies a 1943 birth date. teachrock.org also gives a 1943 birth. Additionally, the Music History Calendar entry for June 25th notes that "Simon's birthdate is often reported as June 25, 1945, but birth records prove she was born in 1943." Some of these sources have been reported in this article at some stage over the last couple of years, but have been removed by various editors who have not supported the date change with other cited sources. This issue has been discussed previously, (twice) at the Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard, as well as here, previously. Because there is a conflict in sources about the subject's birth-year, I think this article needs to discuss it, otherwise unaware editors will continue to try to "correct" the date to 1945, just as you have tried to do. Since different sources support both dates, I think the article needs to cite sources that explain that both dates exist in various sources and which date is supported by primary sources and which date is not. Wikipedia is about what is verifiable, not what the truth is, and in this case the subject has two birth dates attributed to her life, and the subject herself seems to be in no hurry to correct the matter for some reason. For an endurable article, the article needs to be written in a way to avoid people wanting to correct what appears to be an error, even when it is not. How this is best done, I am not sure, but I suspect some degree of page protection will be needed. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 10:38, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your feedback, I really appreciate it! Landplane123 (talk) 18:48, 23 June 2023 (UTC)landplane321
 * Nevertheless, the usual (IP editors) wade in with a ping pong editing mini-battle, switching from 1943 to 1945 with bewildering frequency. Perhaps a request to place a temporary semi-protection on this article may be the best short-term solution ? - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 18:27, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

"Covers and tributes" section a mess
The "Covers and tributes" section has moved the article into WP:SYNTH territory, combining references to make a larger conclusion not found in any of the references. The larger conclusion is implied that Simon's songs are widely covered, which is true, but each source only proves one cover, and no source talks about the wider "tribute" idea. The section should be based on WP:SECONDARY source providing a bigger picture of how Simon's songs are popular with musicians.

Especially problematic is the listing of inconsequential and insignificant cover versions such as Mandy Moore's version of "Anticipation", which nobody has ever praised in a publication. Adam Sandler sang "Nobody Does It Better" but the single performance had no lasting effect. All of these should be removed. Binksternet (talk) 17:36, 8 May 2022 (UTC)


 * The section is also a problem with WP:INDISCRIMINATE, by inserting trivial factoids based on passing mention of the song in album tracklists or concert setlists. The cited source songmeanings.com fails WP:USERG. Three different album tracklists supported by AllMusic mention a cover version in passing without saying that it was a standout performance, and none of these three provide support for how "diverse" are the artists. The Stereogum cite says that Morrissey released an album full of cover songs with one of them being by Simon, but it doesn't say anything about the Simon cover being important in any way. Binksternet (talk) 20:55, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

WP:IMDBREF and WP:MIRROR - quality of sources matter
Folks, I just culled a massive number of WP:IMDBREFs out of this article. IMDB is WP:USERG and never to be used as a WP:RS. I also removed two sources that were obvious WP:MIRRORs of our WP:DOY articles. Almost all of the discussion on this page is about editors trying to use lousy sources like IMDB, goodreads, ancestry, etc. Please familiarize yourself with WP:RS guidelines and make sure your sources aren't WP:RSP, WP:MIRRORs, WP:USERG or otherwise low quality. Toddst1 (talk) 13:39, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Year of birth
Currently being discussed at BLPN. Afterward, it might be useful to list all reliable sources on the topic if there's still a dispute. --Hipal (talk) 22:28, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:39, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Carly Simon on Martha's Vineyard.jpg

B-Class article?
For anyone with more experience this in area, does this article pass the B-Class criteria? It appears so to me, but I wanted to reach out before making any changes. Any help or feedback is greatly appreciated! Cryptkeeperfun (talk) 15:57, 17 November 2023 (UTC)


 * All, I went ahead and updated the Class from C to B as it appears to pass all B-Class criteria. If this is incorrect, please revert back to C! Thanks! Cryptkeeperfun (talk) 01:25, 20 November 2023 (UTC)