Talk:Carmina Burana (Orff)/Archive 1

Good start
This looks good. I am really surprised this did not already exist. Great job so far. --Charles 02:22, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Lyrics
Could the lyrics for the 'O Fortuna' chorus be fitted anywhere in this article? Or perhaps there is (or should be, considering it's cultural impact) another separate article? Sfacets 16:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think inclusion of the text of an entire movement fits the scope of this article. However, there is an external link to the text of the entire piece. I'm also not sure if an article on a single movement would be a good idea, but O Fortuna is certainly well known. If you think you can right a good article on it, go for it! -- MarkBuckles 03:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * the lyrics arnt necessary here as long as the link to classicalnet stays, however i think a sound clip of O Fortuna would be a good addition

Aryan?
"Carmina Burana ... was embraced by the Nazi regime as a celebration of early Aryan culture, which it undoubtedly was."

I think it misguided to label Carmina Burana "a celebration of early Aryan culture"; it has very little to do with Indo-Iranians. Furthermore, the statement seems rather point of view; how is it such a celebration? Furthermore, I don't think an encyclopedia should use such a loaded (and inaccurate, in this context) term as "Aryan". If there is no objection I shall remove "which it undoubtedly was". Adso de Fimnu 03:52, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it would be clearer if it was worded something like "a celebration of the Nazi's perceptions of Aryan culture" David Underdown
 * I agree.--Atavi 18:56, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Staging
Is there evidence that the performances listed as exceptions under "staging" are notable? The forces mentioned are not (at least they don't have Wikipedia articles). I propose they be removed. --RobertG &#9836; talk 08:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

TEXT/VOCAL
Whay are all the links either printed text or just the instrumantals? Shouldn't there be a site where they sing it and play it on the instruments? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.244.37.24 (talk) 14:35, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Used at WWE WrestleMania XIV
i heard the song "O Fortuna" used at WWE WrestleMania XIV as an theme for the druids to come out with their sticks that are on fire. they were there to be a part of an WrestleMania style entrance for WWE wrestler The Undertaker. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boutitbenza 69 9 (talk • contribs) 06:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Is Carmina Burana under the Public Domain?
If so, can we have a copy in the Commons?-- Saoshyant talk / contribs (I don't like Wikipedophiles) 10:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Depends what you mean by Carmina Burana. Orff's music is almost certainly not PD, he didn't die until 1982 so presumably remains under copyright until 2053 (under current legislation).  The original texts he sets however probably are since they date from mediaeval times, translations of these may be a different matter again.  The texts would probably belong in wikisource, rather than directly in Commons.  David Underdown 10:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I personally own a copywritten copy of the vocal score of "scenic contanta" Carmina Burana as published by Schott. Based upon the fact that the copyright for this is dated as 1996, I'd have to say that your chances of getting the music portion of this onto this site in the name of public domain is pretty much not going to happen (at least legally).  However, the text, which has been around since the 13th centuries (+/- a few) should MORE than be within the limitations of public domain! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.165.129 (talk) 14:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Fortuna Wheel.jpg
Image:Fortuna Wheel.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Carmina Burana in popular culture
The list should really be heavily expanded and cited. -- Is this fact ...? 23:28, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Why? That would only result in more flotsam and jetsam (in other words, non-encyclopedic crap), just like all other "popular culture" lists here. I think what is needed is what another editor amusingly calls a "popculturectomy". +ILike2BeAnonymous 23:35, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Be honest with yourself. Is that the real reason you have for calling verified and cited information "flotsam and jetsam"? Willi Gers07 (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Luck/Fortune
Just a seemingly unimportant question: In the 'Structure' part of the article, 'Fortuna' is translated as 'Luck', instead of the more obvious and, I think, more fitting 'Fortune'. Is there any particular reason for this? Also, I believe Carmina Burana is considered to be divided into three major sections, not five: Spring, Tavern and Court of Love, with the two Fortunas being intro and finale respectively. That's how I've usually seen the section marks done in CD booklets, anyway. Classical Net seems to confirm this: http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/orff-cb/carbur12.php --Sarcheliot (talk) 22:06, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I switched "Luck" to "Fortune". That translation was done just six weeks ago (used to be untranslated as "Fortuna").  As for the sections, it looks a bit confusing.  Yes, there's three numbered sections I/II/III but there are other top-level "unnumbered" sections even in the link you provide.  This could be spelled out better.  Anyone have access to an official score? DavidRF (talk) 22:23, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Movements and sub-movements
I've just added a cleanup section to the structure section. Previously, only the main sections were listed and a well-meaning editor just added the full tracklist from an RCA compact disc. I think the section would be better if all the movements and sub-movements were listed hierarchally under the main sections in a generic way that represents the score and not just one CD pressing. I'll try to remember to do this later myself but I'm away from my reference books right now. Thanks.DavidRF (talk) 16:28, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That was no very hard task. Done. --FordPrefect42 (talk) 19:57, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Cool. Thanks! DavidRF (talk) 20:02, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Misleading statement
The article says: "The only solo tenor aria, Olim lacus colueram, must be sung almost completely in falsetto to demonstrate the suffering of the character (in this case, a burning swan)". No evidence is given by the author that Orff intended this aria to be sung in falsetto. On the contrary, Orff marks very carefully in the Baritone part those sections where falsetto is supposed to be used. One may thus deduce that Orff does precisely NOT want the tenor to use any falsetto at all. Of course, the aria lies so high in tessitura that the tenor has only two choices: Use falsetto or sing these very high notes in a full screaming voice. Apparently it is the latter effect that Orff calls for (in accordance with the sound produced by a burning swan!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.132.146.229 (talk) 14:20, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

"Carmina Burana avoids overt harmonic complexities..."
What is the meaning of that sentence? I'm not sure, since Orff often uses complex harmonies, like for example in the very opening bars of "O Fortuna", which has the sequence dm9 - Fmaj7/C - Bbmaj7 - dm/A, or in "Veni, venias" and "Tempus est iocundum", which both use major seventh/ninth chords in clustered setting, or in "Blanziflor Et Helena", which has ample use of major/minor seventh chords, at the climax even in (diatonic) parallel motion... I also think the comparison with Varése is quite far-fetched, since (not only) in Germany there were many divergent styles at that time, not only the second Vienna school, but also more conservative composers like Pfitzner, von Einem, or Korngold, so calling Orffs composition "bold" by comparing it to Varèse is quite far-fetched (it was bold by its distinction from his German contemporaries in its emphasis or rhythm, and ecstatic effect etc.) - in that sense, the music of William Schuman or Aaron Copland would be considered "bold" in comparison to Varése or maybe John Cage... -- megA (talk) 17:11, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Use in TV / film
Can not help but agree with you on the fact that O Fortuna was made known every layman by the Old Spice advertisment. I am from India, I remember watching it on our Black n White TV in early 80's. Definitly I did not know anything about the piece then I loved the music though. I feel its worth citing in the article. Tomar 01:07, 21 June 2011 (UTC)GaruavTomar

"I'm not sure I agree with "Excalibur the movie (John Boorman, 1981), pioneered the use of O Fortuna in media before this had become a cliché." Play O Fortuna to almost anyone in the UK and they'll instantly recognise it as the "Old Spice" music, used in a long running TV advertising campaign for Old Spice aftershave - and I believe those adverts began in 1977.  (And regardless of the dates, I think this advertising should be noted in the article, being where the piece has gained most recognition from in the UK)

- Noted. Also deleted the Jack-Jack Attack trivia, as the music used in that short was actually Dies Irae, not O Fortuna. Minty Fresh Death 21:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm also deleting The Hunt for Red October. The song in the movie is actually Hymn to the Red October."

Orchestration / Instrumentation
Woodwind : Although the text 3 Flutes (2nd and 3rd doubling Piccolos) occurs in many websites' description of the work, this is incorrect; only the 3rd flute doubles to piccolo. There a only a handful of places where the picolo plays a melody, e.g. echoing the soprano's phrase.

The best reference for that would be searching the actual sheet music.

e.g. http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/search?q=Carmina+Burana,  page search for flute

This isn't enough of a verifyable link to make the edit though. Scans of the front page of the sheet music for Flute 2 and Flute 3 / Piccolo would be concrete evidence though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.11.229.226 (talk) 23:24, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Never mind. Looking at the score (Eulenburg edition, ISBN 3-7957-6237-5 ETP 8000), number 16 "Dies, nox et omnia", does indeed call for first and second piccolos, playing a total of 3 notes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.11.229.226 (talk) 17:58, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Piano transcription:
 * There is also a piano version transcribed by Eric Chumachenko and published by Schott. Be aware that it does demand virtuoso piano skills, and also that it suffers from poor proofreading (e.g. the titles of no. 1 / no. 25 is mistyped as "Fortuna imperiatrix mundi" (should be "Fortuna imperatrix mundi"); in no. 24 "Blanziflor et Helena" there are 10 missing # signs for accidental C#s in the last 4 bars [and in four chords in the third-to-last bar the bass line is printed one note too high].  Also in no. 25 "Fortuna imperatrix mundi" the melody line is incorrect from bar 77 to 89 [it is correct in no. 1]).  The full score and the vocal score, by contrast, appear error-free.
 * 86.13.158.235 (talk) 09:43, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * This one? It seems to be for piano alone, without solo voices and choir, did I get that right? --FordPrefect42 (talk) 23:00, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Language
i ve heard that some part of it is in old dutch,is that true? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.15.8.9 (talk • contribs) 18:59, 25 July 2006.
 * No. --FordPrefect42 19:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

YES, SOME PARTS ARE IN OLD DUTCH--190.22.102.198 00:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sources? --FordPrefect42 17:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not old Dutch but Middlehigh German or old Bavarian but not old Dutch. Deutsch is the German word for the English word German - I think it's the same misstake like Pennsylvania Dutch... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.74.168.55 (talk) 19:24, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I shall leave any Wiki-editing to those who know what they are doing with a Wiki-editor. Part 7 should be listed as "Latin/German" not simply Latin - it starts off in Latin "Floret, floret, floret silva undique" and continues in Latin for the first verse. The second verse starts with the same Latin phrase (repeated) and then switches to German for the rest of Part 7. The German is a direct translation of the Latin of the first verse, e.g. "Gruonet der walt allenthalben" = "Floret silva undique". 86.13.158.235 (talk) 09:27, 21 July 2011 (UTC)


 * To avoid confusion, I rather wouldn't list the language simply as "German", because that normally refers to modern standard German. It is Middle High German, just as #16 is not "French" but Occitan (or Old Provençal). --FordPrefect42 (talk) 22:49, 21 July 2011 (UTC)


 * #16 is indeed a macaronic of Latin and Old French. It is not Occitan, which is in a way, the opposite language of the time, langue d'oc vs. langue d'oil. Provencal is a dialect of Occitan. None of the words of the text even exist in Old Occitan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.138.81 (talk) 21:15, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Carmina Burana in popular culture
The music of Carmina Burana, particularly the bombastic parts of the "O Fortuna" movement, appears in numerous movies and commercials and has been covered and sampled by many bands.
 * Michael Jackson has used "O Fortuna" as the music for his "Brace Yourself" teaser and at the beginning of his Dangerous World Tour.
 * "O Fortuna" was used in the open and closing segments of Jackass: The Movie.
 * "O Fortuna" was used by Ozzy Osbourne at a number of his live shows through since the mid 1980s, specifically on the "I Don't Know" track of his Tribute (album).
 * Ray Manzarek, the keyboard player from The Doors, recorded the whole work with rock arrangements.
 * The blackened death metal band Vital Remains used O Fortuna in the introduction of their album Dechristianize
 * "O Fortuna" was first introduced to mainstream media in John Boorman's 1981 film Excalibur. It enjoyed tremendous popularity among the public following the movie's release and was for a time thereafter frequently incorporated into various cinematic and musical works for dramatic effect (a practice that has since become clichéd and consequently is often parodied).
 * "O Fortuna" is played at all large events staged at the new Wembley Stadium.
 * Oliver Stone has included "O Fortuna" in his The Doors and Natural Born Killers.
 * Enigma sampled "O Fortuna" in their song "Modern Crusaders".
 * The piece has appeared in many television commercials such as the Carlton Draught's 'Big Ad', the barbarian raider advertisements for Capital One credit cards, the opera motif advertisements for Rickard's Red beer (from Molson), and the long running TV advertising campaign for Old Spice aftershave in the United Kingdom.
 * The opening segment of conservative talk show host Sean Hannity's radio program features slightly edited portions of "O Fortuna," immediately after the show's main theme ("Independence Day" by Martina McBride).
 * "Veris Leta Facies" is featured in a climactic scene from Paolo Pasolini's 1975 film Salo, playing on the radio as the Bishop whips and burns some of the victims.
 * "O Fortuna" is the music for the pre-game video intro of the University of Houston football team as well as the New England Patriots.
 * "O Fortuna" has been used numerous times on Late Night with Conan O'Brien as the background music to a sketch titled "evil puppy" concerning a satanically evil yellow Labrador puppy.
 * An excerpt of "O Fortuna" appears on the opening and closing segments of the Twin Cities Public Television series "Lost Twin Cities."
 * French ice dancers Marina Anissina and Gwendal Peizerat skated their 1999-2000 season free dance to excerpts from the 'O Fortuna' and 'Fortune plango vulnera' movements of "Carmina Burana."
 * The introduction to "O Fortuna" is used in the British television music talent show The X Factor to introduce the judges at the start of the live shows.
 * Often used in sports recaps on sports networks, the composition is also the team song for Lakehead University's Thunderwolves men's hockey team in Thunder Bay, Ontario.
 * The band Apotheosis (Composers Samoy & Rigaux) released the song "O Fortuna" that was sampled from the original "Carmina Burana" (Belgium, 1991). When the CD version was released Carl Orff's heirs banned it and all CD and record sales had to be stopped and withdrawn from stores.

Was part of Carmina used in the Disney movie Bambi? I think it may have been used during the ice skating scene. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ajoyr (talk • contribs) 12:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * This is too long to stick in the main article, but is interesting to know (I was looking for this) in it's own "list of". Doesn't one of the fight themes in Star wars "phantom menace" sound a lot like this??? Bachcell (talk) 05:35, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sandy Bull did it on 5 string banjo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.114.68.61 (talk) 14:17, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

"Hei!" and Orff's Nazi association
At the end of the piece, "Hei" is written into the lyrics. This was changed from the original "Heil" after world war 2. I think it is an interesting point that should be worked into the article.

Reply: a facsimile of the manuscript of Carmina Burana has been published by the Carl Orff Foundation, which shows that "Hei!" (rather than "Heil!") was in the original as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.250.250.88 (talk) 04:45, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

History
carl orff was considered a nazis in his own work.........most nazis had him write and compose pieces just for them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.4.46 (talk) 02:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)) (UTC)

Reply: This is not supported by present scholarly research and the situation is far more copmlicated (see Michael Kater, Fred Prieberg, Otto Karner's dissertation (Vienna, 2002), Richard DCamp's dissertation (1995), etc.) While Orff did receive commissions during the Third Reich, one of which came from the city of Frankfurt and its Nazi mayor (the commission for Ein Sommernachtstraum), "most Nazis" certainly did not have him write "pieces just for them." Orff evidently refused, or perhaps ignored, a request to write music for a work of propaganda in 1944 (see Kater, Composers of the Nazi Era, 132). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.250.250.88 (talk) 05:10, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Alternate Orchestration
Carl Orff did reorchestrate Carmina Burana down to two pianos and percussion section. A good recording is the ABC Classics conducted by Antony Wlaker, with Cantillation. Should this be added to the page (I'm not familiar with editing wikipedia, and I'd probably botch it)?

JOATMON 04:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply: This reworking (1956) is in fact by Orff's student, Wilhelm Killmayer (b. 1927), but Orff authorized it. See:

http://www.schott-music.com/shop/1/show,35226.html

98.250.250.88 (talk) 05:13, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Translation of "Ego sum abbas"
The translation of "Ego sum abbas" is given as "I am the abbot of Cockaigne". This seems to be clearly incorrect as there is no mention of "Cockaigne" in the Latin title. For the translation to be correct, the Latin title would need to be something like "Ego sum abbas Cucaniensis" (from an Internet search that led me to http://www.davpar.eu/cburana/cb4estu.html). I would think a more accurate translation would be "I am the abbot".

Translation is a sensitive thing. Wikipedia should, at the very least, be technically accurate. Capturing the nuances of the original language, where reasonable, would be a great bonus. In this case, the translation appears to be technically inaccurate. Given the "Cucaniensis" in the lyrics, it appears to be correct that the abbot is indeed from from Cockaigne. However, that detail is not in the original title so should not be in the translated title.

I do not want to make this change to the page for such a tremendous and significant piece unilaterally. If there is no meaningful discussion after a month or so, I will remove "of Cockaigne".

Wantnot (talk) 10:15, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
 * There are no "titles" for the parts of CB, only incipits. The problem you perceive is easily avoided if the full Latin incipit for no. 13 is provided, which I have now done. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:07, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Short comings of the staging section
In my experience, Carmina Burana is more often staged by ballet companies and I have issue with the assertion that it has become more of a concert work. While it is true that the work has often been performed in concert version, several fully choreographed ballets have been staged; including John Butler for the New York City Opera in 1959 which has been revived many times (most recently in 2014 by both the Richmond Ballet and the Pennsylvania Ballet). Many many fully staged ballet productions have been done over the years. Recent stagings in the last ten years include versions by Septime Webre for The Washington Ballet at the Kennedy Center, David Bintley for the Birmingham Royal Ballet, Ma Cong for Tulsa Ballet, Ron Cunningham for the Sacramento Ballet, Erin Ceragioli for the Tacoma City Ballet, Paul Vasterling for Nashville Ballet and Dance St Louis, Lynne Taylor-Corbett for Carolina Ballet, Toni Pimble for the Eugene Ballet Company and the Kansas City Ballet, Kent Stowell for the Pacific Northwest Ballet, David Bintley for the Atlanta Ballet, various choreographers for the Manassas Ballet Theatre, and several universities putting on staged productions with a collaboration between the university music and dance departments. Honestly I find Carmina is more often headlined by dance companies that rope in their local symphony and chorus to do a project spearheaded by them. 4meter4 (talk) 18:50, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Instrumentation
Under instrumentation, tam-tam and gong are both listed, but both are illustrated with the same picture. I'm not an expert on instruments, so I can't say whether one is right, let alone which one. Nick Barnett (talk) 12:30, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia's article on Gong doesn't explain the difference between 'gong' and 'tam-tam'. For illumination, I suggest a search for "difference gong tam-tam" which will provide some answers; the first that came up for me was https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Tam-tam/Sound_Characteristics. YMMV. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:22, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Request for more linked articles
Could someone please create pages for each song? Very few (Ecce gratum, Quando in taberna sinus, etc.) have sites with lyrics and translation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:3a80:cb8:782:3e85:be94:e648:e225 (talk) 04:09, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:52, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Orff, C. Carmina Burana (München, 1959).JPG