Talk:Carmine

Health
Should there be more in depth list of symptoms this dye can provoke?

Split
I split off the information about the colour into a separate article.Phil | Talk 17:24, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

THE FACT THAT BEETLES ARE USED AS FOOD COLORING IS NASTY
Can we please make a list of foods in which carmine food dye can be found? I know it's in "Good and Plenty" yuck >:P
 * It's not a beetle; it's a scale insect. The classification difference between beetles and scale insects is on the "Order" level, the level where we are classified as primates and not rodents. A small point perhaps.  Otherwise, I do know it's present in Dole Ruby Red Grapefruit Juice. Rkitko 10:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's just fucking gross. Make them stop already damnit! 05:44, 17 May 2006
 * ok. just elect me president of the universe. by the way, your food has allowable concentrations of bug parts. and remember, they are natural, and good for you. unlike coal tar extracts which provide the color for gatorade and doritos. yumm, bug parts.75.61.132.26 (talk) 01:19, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to take out some of the weasel words and POV language.--MUSpud2 00:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Horrible. I was eating a danone yogurt, and looked at its color, so artificial-looking and really useless in the yogurt, it doesnt add nothing to it, I was disgusted. and checked on wikipedia was the E-120 stands for... why companies do this? I dont understand. --Pedro (talk) 09:51, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Three of the main reasons food companies color food are to: Carmine is added to many foods (including yogurt) to do all those things, however the main reason is the first. During the fruit processing, the strawberries loose much of their color and need to have color added back to them to appeal to consumers. "really useless in the yogurt, doesnt add nothing to it" huh? look at these uncolored yogurts Uncolored 1 Uncolored 2 and tell me if the added carmine does not make the yogurt look more like strawberries... Colored (Skoot13 (talk) 12:39, 18 May 2012 (UTC))
 * offset color loss due to exposure to light, air, temperature extremes, moisture and storage conditions
 * correct natural variations in color
 * enhance colors that occur naturally
 * provide color to colorless and "fun" foods

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These are presumably not kosher? Drutt (talk) 22:04, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I had a Rabbi for the Orthodox Union (circle U) explain to me that Carmine Red could be certified as Kosher because the Torah forbids eating "the bugs that crawl upon the earth" and the insects in question never crawl upon the earth. Other organizations (Circle K, Star K) do not agree with this technicality and will not certify it as Kosher. I do not have any paper or internet links to back this up, however. Still, if someone is able to track down a source, it would be an interesting addition. 2 March 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.53.248.38 (talk) 11:11, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

No Orthodox kashrut agency certifies cochineal/carmine as kosher. I'm not certain where you got your information from. Here is the information from the Orthodox Union webpage: "However, since these dyes [carmine/cochineal] are extracts of insects they are not kosher." https://oukosher.org/content/uploads/2013/01/BTUS-Spring_2011.pdf (pg. 17) (similarly star-k: http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-palate-secretingredient.htm and O-K http://www.kosherspirit.com/Article.asp?Issue=30&Article=425 ) Nonetheless there are some reliable authorities  who do permit it, such as Rav Ovadia Yosef (former Sephardi chief rabbi of Israel) --gejyspa (talk) 19:44, 11 May 2015 (UTC)


 * In Europe it is kosher because it is now from plants. QuentinUK (talk) 01:03, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Source? (Skoot13 (talk) 16:25, 11 February 2015 (UTC))

Pigment or Dye?
Is not carmine soluble, which makes it a dye rather than a pigment (carmine lake would then be the corresponding pigment)?Moletrouser (talk) 20:59, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Natural Red #4 or #40?
There seems to be some confusion about this issue. There is a Red #40, which is an artificial dye. In the introduction to this article, it says that Carmine = cochineal = Natural Red #40. However,in the section on the European Union, it says:


 * and listed under the names Cochineal, Carminic acid, Carmines and Natural Red 4 as additive E 120 in the list of EU-approved food additives.

The Cochineal article says it is Natural Red #4. If you search Wikipedia for Natural Red you are redirected to Carminic Acid. See also: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110222194700AAQ3Wsl

On the other hand, the Islamic Network thinks "Natural Red #40" is the same as cochineal. http://www.theislamicnetwork.org/qanda_003.html

Also see this discussion: http://m.fark.com/comments/6086335?from_tab_url=H50c96C4uLz74jv75VY3GVmItxlPObiybqrxTnTD_Jvmr18N

Of course, many web pages list it as #40, but that's because they are quoting this introduction verbatim. Does anyone know how to find out what the official names are? Ileanadu (talk) 14:55, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

It is FD&C Red 4. Presumably people confuse red 4 with the much more common red 40. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.53.248.38 (talk) 11:07, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Who removed the picture?
There used to be a picture on this page of the beetles that are used for carmine. It's now gone. If it was copyrighted, then understood. But did someone take it out for aesthetic reasons? If so that is vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.96.248 (talk) 20:41, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Dactylopius_coccus_(Barlovento)_04_ies.jpg do not know what picture you are speaking of, but there still is a picture of the insect on the page. There has not been another image in the page for more than a year, so I doubt its "removal" was vandalism. (Skoot13 (talk) 13:20, 17 September 2012 (UTC))

GMO microbial production?
I removed the following paragraph:

The carminic acid used to produce the pigment can also be extracted from various microbes engineered for the purpose. Microbes are dissolved in a containment structure separate from their cultivation vats, and then allowed to settle out. The liquid and suspended carminic acid is then siphoned off, and metal salts are then added to give a lake pigment in a procedure that is mostly identical to the procedure for acid extracted from insects.

I searched Google, Google Scholar, Google Books and a professional science library database, and I could find no reference to this process, so I severely doubt that it's a notable source of carmine, or even whether it's been done on anything other than lab scale if at all. --Slashme (talk) 09:06, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just modified 5 one external links on Carmine. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131002094053/http://www.cspinet.org/new/carmine_8_24_98.htm to http://www.cspinet.org/new/carmine_8_24_98.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070123071923/http://www.fsai.ie:80/legislation/food/eu_docs/Food_additives/General_provisions/Dir%20292.97%20EC.pdf to http://www.fsai.ie/legislation/food/eu_docs/Food_additives/General_provisions/Dir%20292.97%20EC.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061208095139/http://www.fsai.ie:80/legislation/food/eu_docs/Labelling/General%20Labelling%20Provisions%20for%20Foodstuffs/Dir%202000.13%20EC.pdf to http://www.fsai.ie/legislation/food/eu_docs/Labelling/General%20Labelling%20Provisions%20for%20Foodstuffs/Dir%202000.13%20EC.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070108033129/http://www.efsa.europa.eu:80/en/science/afc.html to http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/science/afc.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070704202612/http://www.efsa.europa.eu/etc/medialib/efsa/science/afc.Par.0001.File.dat/afc_food_colours_%20re-evaluation_%20call%20for%20data.pdf to http://www.efsa.europa.eu/etc/medialib/efsa/science/afc.Par.0001.File.dat/afc_food_colours_%20re-evaluation_%20call%20for%20data.pdf

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Wiki Education assignment: A History of Color
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