Talk:Carnatic music/Archive 5

Why God's Photo in a Music Invented by known Human being
I did the research. Originally I saw a human being photo. Someone has changed to god. It is not rational for Wikipedia. The photo should be replaced with who ever is called father of South Indian classical Music. Naayar (talk) 04:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Article full protected for 48 hrs
Due to the ongoing edit warring, I have full protected the article as-is to prevent further back and forth reverting by any party.

I see apparently productive discussion here on the talk page. If this were being done in the absence of the edit war, to generate a new consensus, all would be well. As is, it appears that a article protection to put water on the edit war fire is called for.

Please continue discussion here. Remember some of our key policies include be civil to each other, assume good faith, provide verifyable sources for controversial information and ensure that those sources are reliable, keep articles neutral point of view and don't unduly promote fringe or minority opinions or beliefs - try to balance the article to the consensus of wider reliable source works.

Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 10:16, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Other actions have left the protection unnecessary, so I have reversed it now. Please try and work together and find consensus per the policies etc.  Thanks.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 10:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Talk page guideline reminder:


 * Never address other users in a heading: A heading should invite all editors to respond to the subject addressed. Headings may be about a user's edits but not specifically to a user.
 * Never use headings to attack other users: While NPA and AGF apply everywhere at Wikipedia, using headings to attack other users by naming them in the heading is especially egregious, since it places their name prominently in the Table of Contents, and can thus enter that heading in the edit summary of the page's edit history.
 * Material not relevant to improving the article has been deleted (per the subsection #How to use article talk pages and #Others' comments). Continued violations may result in further blocks for Naadapriya. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * As it was warned by many editors deleting and moving sections on discussion page is a act of Vandalism. The section deleted is comments made by erachima regarding the vandalism of  deleting a valid section and then initiating a RFC.  An answer to the public comment is still needed here. The heading was an alert to editors, particularly new  but not an attack on any editor.Naadapriya (talk) 23:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Again, please follow talk page guidelines - you have been blocked once, and no other editor or administrator has since agreed that any vandalism has occurred. If you continue to be disruptive, even via violating talk page guidelines, you may be reblocked. Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Please stop giving false warnings. Read on Admn user page about my blocking. Still the clarification particularly about your misleading  information that lead to decision without reading the comments on edit summary is pending. Also the coincidence of a blocking immediately following a valid edit is still to be explained. Also note that you were blocked in attempt to block others. To date to the best of my knowledge I have not recommended blocking of any editor. Wikipedia has better tools to resolve issues.


 * Still you owe a reply to comments of erachima on your user page regarding this article. To quote some:


 * See Talk:Carnatic music#Ugabhoga inclusion argument: if there is an NPOV dispute, then you need to provide reliable sources for your side of the argument. Until you have them, you need to desist from blanking article content. --erachima talk 07:43, 31 August 2008 (UTC).......Wikipedia:Vandalism#Types of vandalism lists blanking of referenced content as a type of vandalism, so I will not retract the claim.


 * No one has endorsed your vandalism act of deleting a valid section without discussions. Currently your vandalism act  as pointed-out by  erachima   has fallen in the cracks for now due to premature and misleading RFC initiated by you. Seriously consider the good advice of Admn Georgewilliamherbert.


 * Before making further comments please answer the comments of erachima with RS. Your's is a clear act of vandalism as per wikipedia until you reverse it. Naadapriya (talk) 05:14, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You need to start listening to the warning you received on your talk page from an administrator, that followed your block for poor conduct (see below)


 * You appear to be engaging in distraction fallacies. Before material can be included it has to pass at least two tests: first, is it verifiable from reliable independent secondary sources; second, would its inclusion give undue weight to a view which is not widely held.  To say that the text is stated neutrally is to ignore these fundamental requirements.  What you are arguing for looks increasingly like a novel synthesis, which is absolutely forbidden by policy.  Much of your engagement on the talk page is simply restatement of the same arguments which others have already addressed - we call that WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.  Your comments about your blocks are plain wikilawyering and also not helping your case at all. I suggest that you read your own user page, particularly the comment about fanaticism; if you carry on as you are then I foresee an unhappy future for you. Sorry to be blunt, but you are now giving all the appearances of being a tendentious editor and an agenda account. Guy (Help!) 14:13, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It is no false warning, and I (among others) won't be feeding your trolling anymore. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:28, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * IT is unfortunate that user insists on discussing this under wrong heading with out answering the comment regarding his Vandalism act on Aug 31st, 2008. His following comments and RFC have mislead many other editors and Admn and has led to random comments such as one quoted above by Guy. Naadapriya (talk) 16:17, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Naadapriya, unfortunately you are showing all signs of being a tendentious editor. Labeling a content dispute as vandalism is a strong sign of that, as is the repetition of arguments when no one else seems to be buying into them. I strongly suggest you read this article, especially the section on How to pull back from the brink. Please note that I cannot comment on the veracity of your edits, they may well be justified, it is just that, when challenged, your sources do not stand up to scrutiny. You may need to do some more homework but, at this point, I think your attempts to argue for your edits do not augur well. In such situations, often the best thing to do is to move on and fight other battles. --Regents Park (count the magpies) 16:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I am taking your comments in somewhat good faith. Please read the early comments by erachima regarding the Vandalism act occurred before RFC. That act has fallen between cracks due to misleading comments and RFC. As per guidelines the content dispute should start with discussions and suggestion not through out-right deletion. As I said the wording can be modified in Ugaboga in view of observation from new editors but deletion is obvious vandalism which should be undone and prevented in future. It is unfortunate that your comments did not include all those previous acts by other editors that led to present situation. Todate all my comments are to correct the wrong information to the best of my knowledge based on citations.. Please provide specifics about your observation astendentious editor BTW: Please note that already about 5 editors have participated on Naadapriya (talk) 19:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I presume you refer to this comment of erachima? Note that the 'act of vandalism' described here is not vandalism, it is a deletion of material because of a content dispute. I don't think the action can be characterized as Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia. (see WP:Vandalism). I'm not going to belabor the tendentious editing point except to list some of the behaviors that typically exemplify that kind of editing, but IMHO, you need to step back a little and see where this is most likely going to end up. Forgive me in advance for this but, if your sole goal in wikipedia is to correct the Carnatic music page, then you're probably doing the right thing by persisting (you will get blocked in the end). If, however, your goals are more encyclopedic, and you feel that you can contribute to the encyclopedia in many different ways, you're doing the wrong thing because getting blocked will not help. If the latter, I suggest you step away from the article for a bit. Here are some WP:TE behavior patterns you may be exhibiting: You challenge the reversion of your edits, demanding that others justify it, Your citations back some of the facts you are adding, but do not explicitly support your interpretation or the inferences you draw, You repeatedly undo the “vandalism” of others, You find that nobody will assume good faith, no matter how often you remind them. I'm not saying you are a tendentious editor, just that you are giving the appearance of being one. Unfortunately, appearances are all we have to go by. --Regents Park (count the magpies) 17:52, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Update: Naadapriya has been topic-banned from Carnatic-music related pages. Should he edit on any of these pages (including talk pages), he will be prevented from doing so. That closes this matter too. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

What the reference does or does not say
I won't pretend to understand any of this but I can look up references and did take a look at the Singer reference. About sillapadikaram, it refers to the story as "The ancient Tamil epic of the second century AD, The lay of the anklet" and goes on to say, in a section entitled "Carnatic Music", There are other discussions on music and the system is based as it is today on melody and rhythm and a basic scale of seven notes. The lay of the anklet is, I think, the same story and the article explicitly ties the story to features of carnatic music. Rather than reverting each others text, I suggest you discuss on the talk page first. --Regents Park (one for sorrow) 02:03, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

They should restrain from poking into topics they do not know and let those who claim expertise handle it Wkicln (talk) 00:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC) Confirmed sock of banned. Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Exactly, the entire reference flows. Straight after that sentence, it continues so that it is unambiguously explicit. "Many features of this southern musical system are also described in Sanskrit treatises, in the Natya Sastra...." [emphasis added] The source is very accurate in its coverage and commentary on this subject, and the attempts to suppress significant viewpoints in it by certain users (who have a very long history of doing so) are now glaring. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:17, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments regarding Recently Added References Ncmvocalist and Naadapriya have made majority of changes, particularly Ncmvocalist. for past 2 months. None of them are discussed. Some are added with support of those who acknowledge lack of knowledge in CM. Please discuss all mods otherwise Admn will be requested to revert to the version that was well discussed. Until then tag is needed Wkicln (talk) 00:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) After reviewing the past discussions, the word 'Carnatic' came to existence at end of Mogul rule and beginning of British rule around 17th CE. The use of reference that relates word 'Carnatic'  to what happened in 2nd CE needs to be revisited for accuracy.
 * 2) There is a sentence added recently regarding 'Madras' using a recording company's reference. Recording companies are not specfic to CM. Therefore that sentence is not justified and needs to be removed. After Mysore dynasty the responsibilities of promoting Carnatic music was taken-over by all Govt/Private funded Universities and private organizations in all Southern states.
 * 3) In general all references added single handedly for the past 2 months need to be reviewed and discussed for accuracy with actual quotes.

Until then a tag is needed for the article to convey that discussions are in progrees for the contents. Please do not remove the tag.Wkicln (talk) 01:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC) Confirmed sock of banned. Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

devaranama is a correct word
see search results in google

1.devaranama  - 2030 2.devarnama   - 276

and

sanskrit-sloka tamil-viruttum telugu-padyamu kannada-padhya

whats wrong here??? some person reverted my edits..see ....this is correct,i dont know why he removed???

It is wrong to revert it with out discussions. Wkireader (talk) 00:26, 6 October 2008 (UTC) Confirmed sock of banned. Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Please ensure you provide reliably sourced content in the future - padhya is not included in the source that is attributed to that sentence, so your bold edit has been reverted again. Please discuss this before reinserting it because it is not verifiable. Spelling of devaranama is okay, so there's no problem with that edit. Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Very starange. Not all the words in artcle are supported by RS. Some are obvious and even common sence for the article. Please do not revert valid edits with out justification. Vadyar (talk) 20:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC) Confirmed sock of banned. Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Please do not misrepresent sources. The sentence in question has been reliably sourced, and in the absence of providing a reliable source to verify that content, this is not something that can be changed as it makes the sentence unverifiable, and misrepresents the source. Thanks, Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It is very hard to find the source available on the net,but may present in some books. sanskrit->sloka telugu->padya(padyamu) same follows in kannada->padhya (padhyagalu-plural word of padhya) telugu & kannada word sounds similar,since both languages have many common words. in karnataka sanskrit sloka(s) are usually called as padhya(padhyagalu). i think you are a carnatic music vocalist,as your username suggest.if you know any singers from karnataka ask them. if you think the info is true, please add.if you think i am wrong,sorry for that thanks  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.177.110 (talk) 08:49, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * When I did the search, I could not find a connection between the two I'm afraid. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Padhyagalu is a Kannada word and there is no need to provide source for a word that is so obvious. One could use a dictionary, I suppose. I think it is not only a overkill to ask for a reference, but also smacks some bias against edits. If the person arguing against it does not know the language, they may let those know confirm it, or consult a dictionary rather than expecting others to help their ignorance. It takes a real bias to stickle with such a trifle.

~rAGU (talk)

Consensus on exclusion of musicians
I believe there was a consensus to not include any photos of Carnatic musicians, as per discussions in the archive, including the sections READ before making further changes please and Some edits in Archive 3. The photograph of D K Pattammal is being added against this consensus (including once on my part, when I reverted an edit pair). Moreover, the photo does not seem to be directly related to the section Improvisation. Hence I propose it should be removed as per the earlier discussions/ consensus. VasuVR ( talk,  contribs ) 17:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The 2006 request was made made due to concerns over complete lack of relevance of images in various sections. A certain editor who has been disruptive on so many levels this month, after being blocked in 2006, has returned to this article to cause more trouble for the editors who are actually doing worthwhile work on it. At the time, he was pushing for including a couple of other images that completely lacked relevance in the sections in which they were posted.
 * When I included this image of D K Pattammal, it was done under the sense that this would no longer be a problem - it is of relevance and notability that she was the first of the females to sing the composite form of improvisation in public. That said, I've removed it so that this issue is resolved. VasuVR, I'd like to express my appreciation for you being bold in opening this discussion, despite the various behavioral problems of the editor I was referring to. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:52, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

It is obvious who has behavioural problems (perhaps from childhood). I had to indicate the consensus that was reached a long time back to not include images of current musicians because of POV concerns raised by the same editor then who makes these POV inclusions of images now. Talk of adamancy, hypocrisy and pure stupidity. Kindly dont edit unless you really understand what's written at WP:NPOV. Just because DKP is your favourite artiste or her grandmother doesnt merit an exception for wikipedia. ­ Kris (talk) 18:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Revert explained
This explanation is to record the reasons for this revert

1. IAST word for sangeetham should be saṃgītaṃ which is a combination of the words saṃ gītaṃ (ṃ representing the anuswara)

2. If we say the oldest common origin for Indian Classical music is the Sama Veda, and that there are treatises like Sangeeta Ratnakara of Sarngadeva considered very authoritative in CM, then we should say the origin was in Ancient India but CM was localized to the south with the split of HM in middle ages.

3. No need to specify (that too in the lead section) what South India comprises of, that's what the South India article is for. This is an article on CM, and anything more about South India is irrelevant. CM's vitality in the south is not bound strictly by political boundaries of the states, it is more of a general identification, so it better be south india.

4. Divine origin is merely a superstitious belief, it can be a passing mention in history section, not in the lead. This is an encyclopedia

5. Sruti and laya should be mentioned separate from the improvisation of raga and tala. No need to club everything, and swara is merely a subcomponent of raga, so no need to confuse the reader.

6. Mentioning that carnatic music compositions "encode intricate details" is weasel words. They dont convery anything of value and further the way that it is taught to learners is one of gradual rise in complexity, not "everything at one go"

7. This statement is of no value - "Sitting on an elevated stage, they will usually present various types of improvisation and compositions for their audience", what if they sit on the floor (as in chamber concerts) and sing only a single type of compositions (say kritis of swati thirunal) without raga or swara or thani? Would that qualify as CM or not?

8. Carnatic is a proper name, music is a common name. First letter of proper names should be capitalized and common names should not be. Simple english grammar.

9. South India represents the name of a region as opposed to southern-India, and therefore merits capitalization. India should anyhow be capitalized.

10. The contribution of the carnatic trinity deserve atleast a passing mention in the lead since carnatic music is largely what it is because of their compositions.

11. Divine origin superstition is enough, no need to mention devas and devis, ravana the asura with veena, nandi the bull with a drum etc because it is pointless.

12. Man's sense of observation is implied, it is not the birds and animals that are singing CM today.

13. Swara, raga and tala are not explained in the silappathikaram, it merely gives the tamil names for the saptaswaras. So it cant be clubbed together with Natyasastra. Moreover, where does natyasastra mention tala?

14. Pita is father and Pitamaha is grandfather, prapitamaha is great-grandfather - all in sanskrit language.

15. There is no "system" for teaching carnatic music, Purandaradasa composed the varisais (verses used in instructing a beginner) and did not formulate any elaborate system.

16. One ref is enough for Purandaradasa being CM pitamaha, no one seeks to overthrow him from that position.

17. Venkatamakhin made the classification, he has not left formulae in Chaturdandi prakasika.

18. Why is the vijayanagara empire and tanjore marathas being removed? The tanjore marathas were very prominent in their patronization of the tanjore quartet, of CM in general.

19. The 19th century was still the old era. Madras rose to prominence only around the time the Music Academy was established in pursuance of the Madras session of the Indian National Congress in 1927.­ Kris (talk) 09:47, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sticking to enforcing an important part of the relevant guideline: The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. A number of your points simply do not reflect what is to come or even remain consistent with much of the reliably sourced content.
 * I'll be going through each of these points; a few of them I can appreciate and agree with. Others not so much. I've numbered these points for clarity.
 * 1. Fine.
 * 2. and 3. Carnatic music, as it is known today, is most commonly associated as the music of the south and that's why that level of weight/detail is given in specifying which states, as it was in the source that it was taken from. I don't disagree that it originated as part of Ancient India for the reasons you've noted, but that would be something you'd use in the first sentence of the Indian classical music article as opposed to this one which is distinguishing one from another form.
 * 4. Indeed, this is an encyclopedia governed by a clear NPOV policy. Your POV does not dictate how an encyclopedia represents significant viewpoints, however much you or I may disagree with it.
 * 5. Again, I disagree. These points are not mutually exclusive and all form a substantial basis on how this article is constructed. If you want to get into a debate about how sources represent these elements separately, you're more than welcome to do so, however much time you're going to insist wasting on it.
 * 6. I'll check if this was something that was imported from the previous atrocious version that existed when you were editing in 2006, or whether this was my own insertion - if it's the latter, I'll find the source for it, otherwise, it'll be removed soon. Verifiability over truth.
 * 7. Sure, that can qualify - it doesn't mean that's how it's typically presented today. Again, whether this was imported from a previous version or from a reliable source is something I will have to check.
 * 8. I agree; so why did you continually refer to it "Carnatic Music" as opposed to "Carnatic music" in your bold edits?
 * 9. Not sure specifically which part you are referring to here.
 * 10. I considered this, but the lead section need not become a venue for further lame edit wars when newbies debate why some composers names are mentioned over others - frankly, quite a legitimate concern.When composers like Purandaradasar, Annamacharya, among others, have significantly shaped Carnatic music into what it is today in their own way, and there have been blocked users who are arguing for placing undue weight on this as it is, it is something that is avoidable. This is a lead section and as it is/was in either version, it was too long. The prominent composers section has one part completely devoted to the Trinity, as with Purandaradasar, and that should be enough. There is no question whatsoever that there are many composers in Carnatic music, whether prominent or not prominent, so that's why I've kept that sentence to acknowledge that section of the article.
 * 11. Simply too vague on its own which is why the longstanding version was reincluded.
 * 12. Again, this is about verifiability from a peer-reviewed journal article as opposed to your opinion.
 * 13. Again, no more POV pushing.
 * 14. Again, verifiability - will check from the sources used to try accomodate it.
 * 15. Purandaradasar is traditionally known for teaching a girl "Sri Gananatha" (a geetham) as the basic song that students are to learn after alankaras, which were followed on from varisas. This is a clear system as opposed to merely going on with varisais and leaving it at that.
 * 16. I don't see why you want to remove sources just because you failed to foresee disagreement in the future.
 * 17. No original research please.
 * 18. Verifiability - this is not what is expressed in the source; if you have another source that includes all of these points, please show it.
 * 19. Again, no original research. Verifiability.


 * I've addressed all your concerns in accordance with our policies and guidelines, except #9 because I'm not sure specifically what you're referring to. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:09, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 2 & 3. If you agree Carnatic Music is evolved out of the common pre-12th century Indian classical tradition, it is the common origin that should be mentioned. The divergence of HM vs CM is a case of localisation and not of origin. South India is a region, while the states are political entities. It is not possible to state that CM is prevalent uniformly across all the four states' political boundaries. For example, southern parts of Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka have a better CM presence than their northern parts, which have negligible to no CM activity. So the mention of states is irrelevant and misleading, this is anyway not the South India article to expand on the term.
 * 4. You cannot state in the lead that CM had a divine origin as a fact, because it is not a fact. It is merely a belief and should be stated as a belief.
 * 5. Sruti and laya are bases of the music form and not elements of improvisation. They should be mentioned separate from raga and tala. Swaras occur in ragas and they are not independent of raga improvisation.
 * 6. Check for factuality before you include a sentence as if it is a fact, and not after you include them in the article. What are the so called "intricate details" encoded in all carnatic songs? This is clearly weasel - not informing anything meaningful.
 * 7. "Sitting on an elevated stage" and "presenting various types of improvisation" is irrelevant to carnatic music lead section. You can mention it in "concerts" section. It is not necessary to sit on a stage or to make 'n' types of improvisation to call it carnatic music.
 * 8. Is this a tit for tat disruption game or are we working together towards making this a good article? You are welcome to make corrections if I mention music as Music, not make deja-vu accusations.
 * 9. You had changed South India to south india, that's what I was referring to.
 * 10. There is a reason why they are recognized as carnatic music trinity by consensus in the CM world. They are the most notable composers in carnatic music and they deserve at least a passing mention over the other composers. No one claims that they are not the trinity or that someone else should be included to enlarge the definition.
 * 11. Again the mention that divine origin as a fact is POV enough, no need to say how the divine origin became divine, it doesnt contribute anything of value to a music article such as this.
 * 12. There is no question of any opinion because whether man observed the birds and animals when formulating the music is unverifiable, so it is enough merely to state it as a belief. Wikipedia is not a quotation page to literally cut and paste various statements from other sources, many of which may qualify as POV here.
 * 13. Silappathikaram does not explain anything about swara, raga and tala but merely lists the tamil names of the seven swaras. If you think that's POV, you are welcome to quote and cite from it before you include such cruft.
 * 14. Until you check, be content to not make bad-faith reverts. Pita is father and Pitamaha is grandfather, which I have already mentioned above.
 * 15. Unreferenced statement about PD teaching Sri Gananatha. Anyways, I am going to allow this one to pass for now.
 * 16. Allowing this too to pass for now.
 * 17. Allowing this too to pass for now.
 * 18 & 19. Who said the source must express every word that is written here? If you think it may be false, add a "citation needed" tag.­ Kris (talk) 13:35, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * 2. & 3. Again, this is not how it's treated in more reliable sources; peer reviewed journal articles. It's distinguished as a form commonly associated as music of South India, and these four states are specifically named in the source. I will add the reference for transparency.
 * 4. It's quite clearly stated as a belief - it is not stated to indicate that Carnatic music is from God as if it's a fact. Like with the above point, if you'd like reliable sources to this effect, I have no problem providing them. They're not self-published or questionable - they're peer reviewed journal articles.
 * 5. Per what I said earlier, if you have a reliable source that keeps them distinct, please provide them for review. Otherwise this is a moot point; these elements need not be separated when the article covers the important elements in that manner.
 * 6. Per above. Will come back to this.
 * 7. Same as 6.
 * 8. Given the sort of unwarranted and disgusting commentary you made in the section above this one, you're one of the last people on this project that has any authority whatsoever on what I can or cannot do, especially when your claims lack merit. To be more precise, I'm taking this opportunity to remind you that I have no reason to AGF when it comes to you or your edits in total. The mere fact that I did not respond to such trolling should indicate what we're here to do - to improve this project. So to summarise, you've failed to disclose why you made this #8 point to begin with when you'd been the one to make the grammatical error to begin with. Perhaps focussing on that would be more worthwhile.
 * 9. Thanks; will fix that if it's not done already.
 * 10. Another moot point that is a matter of POV. The Trinity have a section devoted to them in the composers section, as does Purandaradasar who has a title of his own and that's adequate. I've already addressed why it is futile to include specific composers in the lead section.
 * 11. This appears to be more POV pushing. We're here to disclose significant viewpoints and this is one such. Merely calling it a divine origin is insufficient - it is undisputedly believed to have originated from Hindu Gods and Goddesses in that significant viewpoint - i.e. not any other religion, and this is therefore specified.
 * 12. Already addressed this - per 2 3 and 4, would you like reliable sources?
 * 13. This is directly verifiable from the peer-reviewed journal article that it is sourced to - it's included well within all of our content policies; I'm sorry that you don't consider it the truth, but that does not entitle you to label it as cruft when it is not.
 * 14. Same as 6.
 * 18. & 19. It's called attributing your sources without misrepresenting its content. A cn tag is not sufficient in the circumstances so the bold edits were reverted and not reinstated. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:10, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * 2 & 3. The political entities that exist as the southern states are hardly 50 years old, Carnatic Music as an independent genre is about 400-500 years old. There is no link that CM has with these modern states, it belongs to the whole of south India and not to the states separately. Probably then we need to add the older kingdoms that formed part of southern India as well as the lands that dont form part of the 4 states, such as Pondicherry, Sri Lanka etc.


 * 4. What is this BS statement then?? --> "both sub-genres of music are believed to have had originated from Ancient India, sharing a common divine origin, as well as one that is found in the Sama Veda." You are mentioning the historical origin and mythological origin in the same breath as if both are equally factual, not to speak of the tortuous english. I am afraid with statements like this, we are going nowhere near a good article.


 * 5. FFS what is the reliable resource you are looking for? That swaras are part of ragas, that sruti and laya are the basis for classical music, and that it was man who observed the sounds of the birds and animals? How much more disruptive can you get?


 * 6. You are trying to find the fact after making a statement, and you wont let me word it better? Disruption again. Why should I wait for you to find a source for your crap? It is clear you are not able to even spell out what are the "intricate details encoded" in the music that is taught to learners. Clearly a person who doesnt know what he is contributing.


 * 7. What are you going to come back about on this? That carnatic music is not possible to be presented otherwise than on stage?


 * 8. Your tortuous english doesnt look like a grammar is the only thing it needs. Mind looking at the immediately prior remark of yours to that of mine you allude?


 * 9. Else I will do it soon.


 * 10. To mention the most important composers called "the trinity" in the lead is not POV, FFS.


 * 11. OMG how stupid! Divine origins is good enough. No, people wont assume it came from Allah or Jesus or from the gods of the Mayan civilization.


 * 12. See #5


 * 13. FFS no the link does not state any such thing that the Silappathikaram contains details on ragas and talas and swaras except what I stated. Stop fooling around.


 * 14. You need not come back on anything, just stop your disruption until you know something about what you are speaking!


 * 18 & 19. Obvious crap, but it shouldnt be hard to find references for this, so its OK.­ Kris (talk) 18:38, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 2 & 3 - Carnatic music as it is known today is associated specifically with South India - it is not associated as one that generally falls under the umbrella of Ancient Indian wonders. Please stop sprouting original research and/or cruft.
 * 4. Now, look again.
 * 5. You clearly have no sources.
 * 6. See 8.
 * 7. Most concerts involve a stage, and presenting both improvisation and compositions - makes sense given that numerous commentators found improvisation to be essential in Carnatic music, while compositions being integral in their own way.
 * 8. Given the manner in which you've replied, it seems this is going to result in the same outcome as a little over 24 hours ago. If a short block isn't going to persuade you to change your manner of contributing, then you're approaching a long one.
 * 10. It is utter POV-pushing to claim a composer is more important than another based on your own personal tastes, particularly when giving such undue weight.
 * 11. Again, no one agrees with you or your blatantly unhelpful POV-pushing that thinks everyone assumes you're talking about Hindu Gods and Goddesses when you fail to say anything helpful at all.
 * Remainder. Clearly, you could not find any reliable sources. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:50, 23 November 2008 (UTC) slightly modified Ncmvocalist (talk) 21:10, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Reverts
User:Ncmvocalist is reverting academically cited referenced content for his own version that is wholly unreferenced and non-NPOV. ­ Kris (talk) 13:08, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't look like it based on the above discussions to date. 211.27.234.71 (talk)
 * Do not remove my comment thankyou, and do not hide active discussions to date. Ncmvocalist point to lead section as summary of article. Your edit gives undue weight to part of article and does not summarise. If you are always like this, you should not be allowed to edit. 203.134.130.213 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:41, 28 November 2008 (UTC).
 * Ncmvocalist, please stop your sockpuppetry. It wont give credence to your disruptive edits.­ Kris (talk) 06:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Srkris, if you make a sockpuppetry allegation, please provide evidence. The anon has contacted me regarding your disruptive edits - please refrain from editing in this manner when others dispute your edits. Additionally, if you cannot comply with talk page guidelines, this is not going to go down well. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

475,000 compositions
Can someone confirm that there are WP:RS quoting these many compositions by Purandara Dasa? This question is out of curiosity and should not be misconstrued as disrespect for any composer or individual. Practically, this works out to about 16 compositions every day of his 84 years life. If we take out some of the young days, it may work out to about 20 compositions every day.

The website mentions that Purandara Dasa himself wanted to compose 5,00,000 but did only 4,75,000 and this is mentioned in one of his compositions. Can someone throw some light on that? If there is reference, is the interpretation correct? Is it possible that an extra digit has been inserted by mistake? - - VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 14:16, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Having a look. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:25, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Any luck in finding other sources. The source pointed out for this seems to be a website which may not qualify as RS. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 11:17, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm glad I took notes otherwise I would've had to go digging again. :) Unfortunately, my luck has been limited. Sharma (1961) says that he is "credited with the authorship of 475000 songs, according to one estimate and 425000 according to another." Raghavan (1966) and Raghavan & Jackson (1994) assert that he composed 475,000 padas. A 1994 publication titled "Great composers" asserts that he composed 475000 pieces "according to the evidence contained in a piece by his disciple." Finally, Gupta (2006) and Nadkarni (2006) asserts that "He is believed to have composed around 475,000 songs, although only a thousand or so of them are known today." These are predominantly self-published sources that were dedicated to discussing Purandara Dasa alone. However, among the many other sources available, including highly reputable peer-reviewed journal articles, they all mentioned things like him being called the father of Carnatic music, but they did not touch on the number of his compositions. Therefore, I too have reservations as to whether this really warrants a place in this article. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:34, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

It originated from the Devas and Devis'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.212.15.162 (talk) 18:29, 25 January 2009 (UTC) Confirmed sock of banned. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:29, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Additionally, there is no evidence that Jagannatha Dasa is considered a prominent composer of Carnatic music within mainstream literature - I see no evidence to suggest that its inclusion is in compliance with NPOV, nor his compositions are frequently rendered in modern concerts across India and the world. Similarly, if there is a citation that conflicts with the purported fact that the krithi was developed between the 16th and 20th century, I ask that it be specified. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:25, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Etymology
Hi, I wanted to know how this word Carnatic Music originated. Because one may think that this music tradition belongs to Karnataka.రవిచంద్ర (talk) 04:52, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I would not worry too much about the name Carnatic or that it may connote relation to Karnataka. In Tamil it is still called as Karnaataka sangeetham. It is a fact that Carnatic music or Karnaataka sangeetham is how our music is referred. Should we worry about the terms Red-Indians, American Indians or West Indies connoting India, when they are not related to India? These are just the names being used for a long time and we have to use them as it is in the encyclopedia. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 00:30, 20 February 2009 (UTC)


 * You'll probably need to do some research to find out. The latter assumption doesn't seem to make sense - music traditions don't "belong" in any one specific state. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:23, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Aren't there any historical books on Carnatic music that can clear the air? Mspraveen (talk) 04:11, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I recall having a discussion here about etymology a while back but we didn't really get anywhere (should be in the archives) - unfortunately, I don't think there was even one commentator or author that's discussed it in sufficient detail, in a reliable source. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:53, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, this point had been discussed many times in the past. See the archives, the earliest one is perhaps the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Carnatic_music/Archive_1#Carnatic_music_and_Karnataka Quote from archive: Carnatic music is named after the Southern region of the Indian subcontinent named by western colonists as Carnatic. This name was used to refer to the region between the Eastern Ghats and the Coromandel Coast encompassing much of what is called today as South India. Thus the term carnatic music was used to denote South Indian music. See: Carnatic (region) Robin klein 17:33, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) End Quote --Aadal (talk) 17:35, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Re: Karnataka. This has nothing to do with the state of Karnataka, and such assertions are quite contrived. Prof. P. Sambamurthy, in his "South Indian Music" Vol. 1 page 21 says the following,"In Tamil, Karnataka means tradition, purity, sampradayam and suddham. People who are wedded to ancient ways of living are even now referred to Karnataka manusyas. Prof. S says on the same page elsewhere, "The first work to mention the word 'Karnataka' is the Brhadesi I pointed out this on July 28, 2006 in this talk page (see archive).--Aadal (talk) 17:42, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Re: Tamil slang - Karnataka: There is no word in Tamil Language as such 'Karnataka' to mean qualities mentioned above. What Prof. P.Sambamurthy said may be about a slang which is in use among masses referring a person who is very old fashioned and refuses to change even if circumstances warrant.

K.Ramadurai (talk) 22:18, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Concept of Carnatic Music
Carnatic Music literally is an anglicization of "Karu" + "Nataka" + "Isai" i.e., Karu Nataka Isai Which means "Yolk" + "Drama" + Music" which can be further explained as "Presentation of a concept in the form of Dramatic(includes dance) music".

Excessive "academization" of this Karu Nataka Isai led to division of Music, Dance, and mode of presentation.

Karu Nataka Isai will reach its complete form when the Lost instruments, Lost dance forms, and Lost modes of presentations all are re-integrated.

Present squabble for glory on telugu/tamil/sanskrit/kannada/malayalam/tulu etc will only lead to further division.

Pick your best of Concepts,

Pick your best of Music,

Pick your best of Dance form,

Present it dramatically fusing all the three about. You will see carnatic music in your front! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.192.10.181 (talk) 15:54, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Comparison with Hindustani
The article consists of two rather debatable aspects of carnatic music and states them as facts. These two are as follows.

1. In contrast to Hindustani music of the northern part of India, Carnatic music is taught and learned through compositions, which encode many intricate musical details, also providing scope for free improvisation.

The statement can easily be taken to imply then Hindustani music is not taught through compositions, and does not encode intricate musical details. Such a statement understates the efforts of great Hindustani composers like Sadarang.

2. Unlike Hindustani music concerts, where an accompanying tabla player can keep beats without following the musical phrases at times, in Carnatic music, the accompanists have to follow the intricacies of the composition since there are percussion elements such as eduppu in several compositions.

While the first part of the statement may be true, this brings a suggestion that, hindustani singers do not follow intricacies of the composition. This is an opinion and not a fact, and thus should be removed from the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asrivathsan (talk • contribs) 03:09, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Proposed Merge
I was cleaning out the Copyedit backlog, and I came across Origins and history of Carnatic music. Most of its contents exist in the "origins and history" section of this article. This is not normally advised, therefore, I propose a merge.--Unionhawk Talk E-mail 18:05, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think a merge is advisable as there is some material which isn't really worthy for inclusion in this article (as far as previous disputes on this article were in some agreement on). I think there is potential for a separate article there (not so much in a content fork sense), but given that hasn't been worked on, the question is a matter of whether it should be deleted or not. Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:33, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with the proposal to merge, but I also think that deletion as suggested by User:Ncmvocalist would be an acceptable alternative. The separated article appears to be pretty much a copy of the section from the main article, with the insertion of a single paragraph. The article has existed for three years now without it developing away from being a content fork, and has had a copyedit tag on it for 17 months now. The observation on its talk page about potential controversy is alarming, as are the history of the page and Ncmvocalist's observation above about material being unsuitable to transfer here because of previous disputes. This discourages other editors from working on the whole subject (I also picked it up during the Copyedit Drive, and I was scared away by these things). It's time to resolve this properly. --Stfg (talk) 09:43, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and redirected it. If there is enough content in the history section here to need a split again, I'm all for that. But I don't think we're there yet.--Unionhawk Talk E-mail 15:01, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Entharo Mahaanubhaavulu
Wonder what this unproductive edit war is about... Have we understood the meaning of Entharo Mahanubhavulu Anthariki Vandanamu, before we comment about Carnatic music? Have we understood Geethaarthamu? Or the hundreds and thousands of compositions filled with artha, bhava, bhakthi and everything? Are we more knowledgeable to write an Encyclopedia on Carnatic music better than those great souls? VasuVR ( talk,  contribs ) 09:05, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Why is the title described in Sanskrit and Kannada?
Hi All,

Carnatic music or Caru-nataka sangeetham existed even before the birth of Sanskrit and Kannada. It has its root in the Dravidian culture so i dispute the use of sanskrit and kannada to describe the title. Both should be removed as there is a possibility of ambiguity as karnataka and carunatik music sound alike but donot share any relation as such. Purandaradasa only revived othe lost history of carnatic music and no one ever claimed that he is the inventor of it although he is a father of this revolution. I am quite surprised this article doesnt emphasise the stronghold of Chennai as the carnatic music hub inspite of this truth known across the world of music communities including western countries. This should be mentioned in the very first line of article and this should be classified as South Indian music rather than indian music.

Please see below links:

http://www.theindiantourism.com/web/contentview.php?id=9 http://www.angelfire.com/musicals/kallidaihari/NotesonCarnaticMusic.HTML

Cherakulam (talk) 13:01, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree with User: Cherakulam cent percent. This is not to underestimate or downplay the role played by the Great Purandaradasa and the musicians of Karnakaka in development of Carnatic music. The roles of other Southern States can not be overlooked. Hope necessary corrections will be made showing the title in all the four southern languages.

K.Ramadurai 16:57, 14 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jambolik (talk • contribs)

Edit request on 5 January 2012
The name Carnatik music is unappropriate. It should be Karnataki music or South Indian Music.

Shruti aradhye (talk) 09:33, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: This issue has been discussed extensively before, so any change would have to reflect a consensus view. Prior discussions include
 * /Archive_1
 * /Archive_4
 * /Archive_4
 * /Archive_4
 * Please familiarise yourself with these discussions and with Article titles if you wish to comment further. Thank you, Adrian J. Hunter(talk•contribs) 10:42, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the leads. I spent some time going through them. It appears that title is still an issue. Looks like the editors who were discusiing that issue are not active anymore. As for I know, atleast in Karnataka, Andhra and Kerala majority use 'Karnataka' or 'Karnatak' music. Therefore the title should be open for dicussion. Naayar (talk) 10:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Correction request to improve the article
This article needs more correction and in its present form is completely inadequate and since the term 'Carnatic' music is being used;referring it to Karnataka or Karnatic music is a misinterpreted term and deviates from the original, which by actual means; primary mode of music syllabi, mode, notation which was followed and till date used as a practised course of artistic work (along with other modes like dance form) extensively continuous and inhabitated among Tamils, over its rich long literature and cultural flourish ever since first millennium. Ungal Vettu Pillai (talk) 06:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Adding furthermore insights and valid references and reliable sources of study/research work:- to show that present day representation (or pronounciation) of calling this ancient claasical music as 'Carnatic' and thus referring it to 'Karnatic' or 'Karnataka' music is a misinterpreted (mistaken) representation and thus want to highlight it and make it clear here. It is a well understood fact that this ancient form of music spreaded along with its cultural influence in people's living and art-form is highly depicted throught the usage of it among Tamils and it is also broadly used as a classical referrence on their primary forms of literatures like 'Silappatikaram'; And so even though today it widely utilised and accepted to call it as 'Carnatic' music; that does not fully stop to bring the history beyond it where this form of music is a representation of ancient classical Tamil music. Along with this, the most famous and developed keerthanas were done more in number on Telugu. But all these do not limit this ancient music to be represented as ancient Tamil music. Lastly, more on the basis of being resourceful and informative these factual datas are brought in front to discuss and so if anyone brings unreasonable or other unacceptable talk form here, then it does not incur due to this user (myself) or myself (as a contributor) wont be any liable for such views and ideas. All should note: its done to really make corrections and improve the article and correct wikipedia to make it a better place for quality reading which are fully presented in more detail and thus stand out for its correctness.

Sources: http://www.jstor.org/pss/833958 http://www.jstor.org/pss/833909

Ungal Vettu Pillai (talk) 05:02, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Most of the points you have made are already well discussed.  This is a general article about today's Karnatak (aka Carnatic) Music not a music from any particular state. I agree that all languages just like respected Tamil had some form of music before formal Carnatic Music started in late 14th CE. For example we had music in Kerala before 14th century that might have influeced today's Karanatak music Based on your theory specific for Tamil,  I strongly support you to start a new article 'Contribution of Tamil to Carnatic Music or Classical Music of Tamilnadu'.Naayar (talk) 06:44, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 21 February 2012
Please change "Telagu" to "Telugu".

Narayan bl (talk) 06:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ Thanks! Dru of Id (talk) 07:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Sangeeta Ratnakara
I wonder why Sangita_Ratnakara-- a definitive musicology treatise on Carnatic/Hindustani music -- was never mentioned in the main page. If Sangita_Ratnakara of Sarangadeva penned in 12/13th Century as the corresponding wiki page states, how come Purandara dasa (of 14/15th century) is credited as the "founder" of Carnatic music? Doesn't music precede the musicology?

129.67.149.145 (talk) 17:49, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 16 May 2012
In the different forms of tala under carnatic music,the second tala is given as matya tala,but in my knowledge i think it is madhya tala;please check on the matter.

111.92.4.55 (talk) 14:42, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It is correctly listed as matya tala. Druta, Madhya and Vilambita refer to something separate. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:17, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Language scripts
Indian Language scripts - It is unfortunate that the article heading is only in English whereas Carnatic Music is part of India's glorious tradition. Why can't we have the heading in five scripts (all the south Indian languages and Sanskrit)? After all CM has compositions in all the five languages. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.93.240.57 (talk) 01:48, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Per WP:INDICSCRIPT, Indian articles are not permitted to have any regional or Indic language scripts in the lead, but IPA may be used there to help with pronunciation. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:53, 2 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Your response is incorrect. Above comment is about headings not article it self. Headings in other languages are allowed in English Wikipedia. Please read other articles about India, say about MSS. You have made 100s of unilateral edits without discussing. Many are wrong. Please revisit them and correct. 206.57.33.254 (talk) 18:02, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Heading? What heading? It is the lead paragraph(s) we are talking about - and as clearly pointed out, they are not permitted in the lead as per consensus that has been reached. Please go through the agreed single line guideline that has come out of this consensus at WP:INDICSCRIPT.
 * Also, just because some other articles are "yet to be cleaned-up" does not mean we have agreement of opposite (and people cannot start adding back the scripts based on other articles existing).
 * -- VasuVR ( talk,  contribs ) 06:13, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with above response. Other articles that contain scripts should be corrected.Ennaraga (talk) 06:42, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

This Article is going Nowhere

 * 1)  Some uncontested editors making edits at thier will with no discussions
 * 2)  Cartoons of gods and unrelated lady with NO relation to the music founded on solid principles

Hope some Adminstrator steps-in puts a stops such edits71.97.114.29 (talk) 18:40, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. What is painting of year 1735 from North India doing in an article on a music that was founded in south under Vijayanagar Dynasty in mid 14th century. This is on of the bad articles I have seen among Wikipedia articles. Photos of the father of Carnatic music and one of the great trinity are not there. Strange!207.250.45.254 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:23, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Locked with errors
At least do a basic cleaning before locking this up. genuinely.
 * I suuport this. 71.97.114.29 (talk) 18:52, 17 September 2012 (UTC)


 * It is really un-Wikipedia to lock an artcle with so many deliberate mistakes.

It should be unlocked. 70.165.216.74 (talk) 18:43, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 5 October 2012
203.114.242.134 (talk) 11:21, 5 October 2012 (UTC) Thanjavur Kingdom(erstwhile),the cradle of carnatic music which was the home of trinity and galaxy of musicians like GNB,Maharajapuram viswanathan,MLV etc has been completely ignored. The Thanjavur Maratha rulers patronised Carnatic music like no one else.Also even today veena is called Thanajuvr veena besides ghatam and goru veena (chtra veena now) were from Thanajvur another instrument was nayanam. Kindly do justice to Thanjavur's contribution
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 14:48, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Therapeutical Effect
Post-operative patients can ease their pain and reduce their dependence on pain-killers by listening to One of the famous Ragas of Carnatic music, Anandha Bhairavi.

Freedomtalks (talk) 05:16, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I've dropped the Therapeutical Effect section header down a level so it sits within the edit request. I assume you want this added to the article? If so you should be able to add it yourself as you are autoconfirmed. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:13, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Archiving
Does anyone have an objection if I set MiszaBot to archive threads older than 6 months, while also leaving the last 3 requests on the talk page? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:19, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I've set up archiving. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:19, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

References needed in the "Compositions" section
The first half of the "Compositions" section is woefully lacking in adequate citations. The statements aren't necessarily unfactual; they just need proper backing up from published sources.-- Sreesarmatvm talkcontribs 15:23, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Please correct the language to Telugu
Telugu has been incorrectly spelled. Can someone please correct 'Telegu' to 'Telugu' Telugu. Sharmabss (talk) 09:29, 27 October 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 17:22, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Including the North and East of Sri Lanka as one of the regions in which Carnatic music is native to
Ncmvocalist claims that the existence of Carnatic music in the north and east of Sri Lanka "does not match the cited literature".

Please provide me with the following information, so that I may be able to point you towards an acceptable source:

1. What cited literature are you referring to? I would be specifically looking for something that mentions that Carnatic music falls is not the musical tradition in north and east Sri Lanka.

2. North and east Sri Lanka has fallen within the Tamil cultural sphere (Tamilakam) from at least the sangam era. Prior Portuguese arrival, this region was under the rule of the Aryachakravarti dynasty, which was a protectorate of the Pandya kingdom. Prior to that, it was under direct rule of the Pandya kingdom and Chola kingdom. Tamil Nadu and northern and eastern Sri Lanka functioned a single cultural unit until the British made the administrative decision to unify the island of India and the subcontinent of what is now India, Pakistan and Bangladesh into separate entities purely for logistical convenience. These borders did not exist prior to that, and neither did the art forms that represent the people of these regions.

Only two logical consequences appear to follow, given the above information and your insistence that Carnatic music is not a part of the musical tradition of the region: a) Are you disputing the above historical fact? If so, what information would you find acceptable to satisfy your burden of proof? b) Alternatively, are you acknowledging this fact but insisting that somehow Carnatic music was not practised in places like Jaffna? If so, what information would satisfy that this is not the case?

Please see the following references, as a starting point. More will be provided upon your clarification to the above questions:
 * http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/can-the-musical-bridge-across-palk-strait-be-rebuilt/article5472076.ece
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._M._Krishna#Jaffna_Cultural_Initiative
 * http://tamilnation.co/hundredtamils/veeramani.htm
 * http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/jaffna-reverberates-with-nuances-of-fine-arts/article5105859.ece
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Shankar
 * http://www.carnaticstudent.org/course/wordpress/more-about-the-course-and-the-tutors/bhushany-kalyanaraman
 * http://www.tamilnet.com/art.html?artid=10074&catid=13
 * http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/legacy/radio3/2011/03/a-whole-new-carnatic-world.shtml
 * http://books.google.ca/books?id=zKYgia9hiB0C&pg=PA26&dq=tevaram&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e3D_Tr3-N5CutwfS3P3QBg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=tevaram&f=false
 * http://gaana.com/artist/maharajapuram-santhanam
 * http://www.gold.ac.uk/carnatic-music/
 * https://anthropology.as.uky.edu/user/9173
 * http://www.island.lk/index.php?page_cat=article-details&page=article-details&code_title=92108
 * http://books.google.ca/books?id=W3aAB9IFVdkC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=carnatic+music+sri+lanka&source=bl&ots=O184LegCtx&sig=vhOd1t9NIj0VjJKwIoyUzAZvFDs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=h5JpVOqxOMaeNrGTgIAL&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAjgo#v=onepage&q=carnatic%20music%20sri%20lanka&f=false
 * http://www.doenets.lk/exam/ebooks.html
 * http://books.google.ca/books?id=Kj_aWm4DeFEC&pg=PA466&lpg=PA466&dq=carnatic+music+sri+lanka&source=bl&ots=F0u2V-xcqu&sig=jbMRwqEfWiWEXvi2hgNA4jYj6iw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qZJpVOCuOYqngwSO8IL4BA&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAzgy#v=onepage&q=carnatic%20music%20sri%20lanka&f=false


 * Many of the so called proofs you have provided are from blogs, news paper clips or banned sites (like Tamilnation.org). Also you cant use other wiki pages as a source (Its called "circular reasoning", look for WP:Circular reasoning rules). Your frequent mention of "logical conclusions" is your own historical point of view. Please see WP:POV rules and regulations. The only way you can introduce parts of Sri Lanka as an ancient home of Carnatic music is to bring valid and trustworthy multiple book references from acclaimed scholars to prove your point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.42.208.179 (talk) 13:29, 17 November 2014‎ (UTC)


 * Comments - the lead mentions commonly associated with southern states of India. The google books point point to Carnatic music percolating into Srilanka in 20th Century. So, it is still common associated only with southern states, unless a reference is provide that states clearly that it is associated with southern states of India and North/East Srilanka.
 * I agree with above comments by an anonymous editor that most of the other references are not valid to modify this very important article, especially the lead.
 * Moreover, if current practice is to be considered, it is practised and performed all over the world now. Still, it is only commonly associated with South Indian states.
 * VasuVR ( talk,  contribs ) 15:31, 17 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Indeed, nearly all of those links provided above are not considered sources which are reliable and in keeping with our WP:NPOV policy. The literature I was referring to included all of the references listed at Carnatic music, and each of the journal articles which has a "doi: number" (at the end of each citation listed in Carnatic music). Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:39, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanjavur Nayaks and Marathas passage
The following unreferenced passage was inserted into the origins, sources and history section by a few hours ago, which I have now removed:

"The focal point of Carnatic music from 16th century to early 20th century was the Kingdom of Thanjavur, till Chennai began to gain prominence in modern times. With the fall of the Vijayanagara empire, Thanjavur was ruled by the Thanjavur Nayak kings who were great patrons of the arts. The great musicologist Venkatamakhin, who created the Melakarta system. born and lived in Thanjavur where his father Govinda Dikshitar, a renowned musicologist in his own right, served as an administrator in the court of Achuthappa Nayak. The Thanjavur Maratha kingdom who succeeded the Nayaks in the in the 17th century AD continued their patronage of Carnatic music, and the Thanjavur continued as the focal point of the music for two more centuries. The musical trinity of Tyagaraja, Muthuswami Dikshitar, and Syama Sastri were all born in the Thiruvarur in the Thanjavur district and lived in the Thanjavur Kingdom."

The origins, sources, and history section is well-referenced, and I'd suggest that sources are provided here to support each sentence, and to consider whether it's appropriate to insert this paragraph into the article. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:30, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


 * To add to the above, the blog website source offered is not a reliable source which can be cited in support of the statement (as has correctly pointed out, it is against policy). The other source offered, a book entitled "Carnatic Summer" which contains biographical articles on musicians, is also not adequately reliable for the assertions made. Content proposed to be added must comply with WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:NPOV policies. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:56, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

The book referenced talks exactly about what I have written about the two Thanjavur dynasties. Please read through the excerpt from that book that I included to the point where it gets to talk about the dynasties. You can start reading the excerpt near this line

"Carnatic music had by the 17th Century shifted further south to Tanjore, where under the benign rule of the Nayaks and later the Maratha kings, it flourished as a major art form".

The other material about the biographies of musicians are adequately referenced through wikipedia links to their own articles. There is nothing disputable to here. I am just fixing a huge omission in the current writeup that omits the history of thanjavur where all three members of the carnatic music trinity lived.--Reddishmariposa (talk) 21:11, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


 * One reference is a blog called "Maddy's Ramblings", the other refers to a web page called Nadasurabhi. I presume you mean that the contents of the web page came from the book called "Carnatic Summer: Lives of Twenty Great Exponents" by V. Sriram. Unfortunately, I can't seem to access that book on google books so there is no way to prove the web page reflects the contents of that book accurately. For an omission that you say is so glaring, you should be able to come up with at least one published book citation from a well known writer on South Indian music. We are not trying to keep your content out, just trying to make it verifiable. Hope this helps.Mayasandra (talk) 01:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I took a closer look at your edits. These are my thoughts. One thing to keep in mind with such a short summary style article is there should be no over do of any one information regarding any one region, unless absolutely necessary. Venkatamakhin is already mentioned in the article. Only his father Govinda Dikshitar was not in it. But the issue is that your edits made the Tanjore region the "focal point" of Carnatic music till the dominance of Chennai in the 20th century, which is incorrect. Mysore and Travancore had a rich Carnatic history in the 18th and 19th century too. if you look at dates, you will see all the three that from the "Trinity" in Tanjore are from the late 18th-early 19th century. As such they have been dealt with in the section "Prominent composers" adequately. This tells us that there may have been a period of initial development/transfer of this art in the late 16th and 17th centuries in the Tanjore region, just as in Mysore and Travancore. But your edits unilaterally made Tanjore the heart of it all. This is why it's important to refer to multiple books, get a balanced opinion and then further balance it here such that you don't give too much weightage to one piece of the pie.Mayasandra (talk) 02:03, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Mayasandra, I am ok with stating the Tanjore was one of the focal points, not the focal point. But I don't see any logic whatsoever in not mentioning tanjore at all when the mysore and travancore are claimed to be the main patrons. It is not coincidence that the most well-known musicologist (Venkatamakhin) and the most well-known music trinity lived in Tanjore. Saying that these names are dealt with elsewhere is a weak argument. If indeed you are constructive in your criticism and not just blocking valid edits for parochial reasons, why don't rewrite my piece above and add it in. Reddishmariposa (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 03:25, 16 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Give me a day or two to research a bit, to come up with some reliable sources and then I will put forward a line that is acceptable to all. Hope this works for Ncmvocalist as well.Mayasandra (talk) 01:18, 17 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Results of some research. We can find more sources of course which may vary slightly in details :

1)Singing the Classical, Voicing the Modern: The Postcolonial Politics of Music in South India, pp.61-64, Amanda J. Weidman, Duke University Press, 2006, ISBN 0-8223-3620-0 2)Tamil Brahmans: The Making of a Middle-Class Caste, pp.201-202, C. J. Fuller, Haripriya Narasimhan, University of Chicago Press, 2014, ISBN-13: 978-0-226-15274-5

Both sources agree that Carnatic music flourished in Tanjavur, especially under the Marathas, from the 18th century. The period before that is a nascent beginning as such and hence is not needed in this summary article (better off in a possible article called "Carnatic music in Tanjavur 1650-1850 AD"). Further Weidman says that the British put a stop to the patronage because they considered it too expensive in mid-19th century which led to migration of musicians. Fuller and Narasimhan agree to this (indirectly) and confirm the tradition moved decisively to Chennai in the 20th century. However, I did not see any info about the Tanjore Maratha kings themselves being noted composers, but rather just collectors of various instruments and patrons of various groups of composers. So I suggest we re-write that paragraph this way, making a change only to the first line:

''Carnatic music was mainly patronized by the local kings of the Kingdom of Mysore and Kingdom of Travancore in the 18th through 20th centuries, and by the kings of the Thanjavur Maratha kingdom from the 18th through the mid-19th century. Some of the royalty of the kingdoms of Mysore and Travancore were themselves noted composers and proficient in playing musical instruments, such as the veena, rudra veena, violin, ghatam, flute, mridangam, nagaswara and swarabhat(Pranesh 2003, p54-55, p92, p162-163, p225-226)(Weidman 2006, pp.61-64)(Fuller and Narasimhan 2014, pp.201-202) Some famous court-musicians proficient in music were Veene Sheshanna (1852–1926)(Pranesh 2003, p108) and Veene Subbanna (1861–1939)(Pranesh 2003, p128) among others.''

The fact that Chennai emerged as the focal point in the 20th century is already dealt with in the paragraph below this in the main article. Hope this satisfies everyone.Mayasandra (talk) 02:36, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Mostly does; just need a day or two as I want to make some brief amendments too. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:02, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, the user who wanted the change has not showed up for several days. So we can hold all changes in abeyance till he comes back to the discussion.Mayasandra (talk) 14:44, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry for my disappearance to indulge in the real world:-) Very nice research above. However, I do think more changes are needed for an even-handed treatment to the Thanjavur Kingdoms. My original writing had some information that I think should be restored to the above paragraph which is pretty good in other ways. The three changes that we should consider are:


 * 1) The Thanjavur Nayaks of the 16th century should not be left out. The formal codification of carnatic music happened under their rule. Govinda Dikshitar (minister in the Nayak Court) and his son Venkatamakhin are to Carnatic musicology what the later trinity under the Thanjavur Marathas are to Carnatic composition. For someone like me interested in the theory of music, the former are even more important!


 * 2) We must mention the luminaries of Thanjavur by name in this paragraph because it reinforces the reason why those dynasties are mentioned in the first place. That is good prose writing. To mention names for Mysore and not for Thanjavur is one-sided.


 * 3) V. Sriram is actually a well-reputed author (author of Carnatic Summer in my references). See his wikipedia page for other books. It is hard to get his book for free. But I was able to verify the excerpt to some degree by doing the search inside of the book feature. However, I am not too particular about this point as I am about the above two.


 * Could we merge @Mayasandra's paragraph with some my writing to resolve the above? (Reddishmariposa (talk) 14:04, 22 March 2015 (UTC))


 * I'm not sure it's that simple and it's better not to synthesise content. You may want to consider writing a separate history of carnatic music article if you want much more detail, but I don't think it can be expanded too much in this summary-style article. The weight we put on these points need to be proportionate to the weight the body of literature places on these. In the two sources Mayasandra has referred to, were you able to find the names being listed in a similar fashion? Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:17, 22 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, regarding Ressishmariposa's point #2 about the musicologists, Venkatamakhin is already mentioned in the article and we have a wiki article on Govinda Dikshitar with sufficient sources to support it. But what we need to establish is of what significance (speaking relatively) are his Arivamsa Saracharitram and Sangitha Sudhanidhi by Dikshitar to the evolution of Carnatic music (compared to Sharngadeva's Sangita Ratnakara for instance). I am asking this because there are no shortage of treatises on music in Indian musical history. Regarding his point #1, nascent beginnings need a separate article. We should not dwell on every detail here. It's better to create sub-articles for such details. Hope we all understand this.Mayasandra (talk) 15:09, 22 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I was doing some research on the article talk page archives itself. I get the impression that perhaps no other Indian related article has seen more debates, discussions, blocks and lock up's then this article. Users from the Karnataka, Tamil Nadu and Andhra work groups were all involved, not to mention several admins who moderated these debates. It's no wonder, that after several years of polishing this article actually found stability since around 2009. The point I am trying to make is if Reddishmariposa wants changes to be made, the burden of research and proof should largely borne by him. So far I don't see real effort other than a couple of web pages. I encourage Reddishmariposa to do as much due diligence as possible, bring as many reliable sources as possible to the table.Mayasandra (talk) 00:28, 23 March 2015 (UTC)


 * There are plenty of references that the Thanjavur Nayaks played an important role in Carnatic music history. See for example "Nayaks of Tanjore By V. Vriddhagirisan" where the author states that "tanjore under Raghunatha Nayak became the greatest seat of learning in South India as well as the home of Carnatic music". But @mayasandra seems bent on excluding any sources that he does not agree with. Or, because *he* cannot access it. That can't be a valid reason, can it? Why else would Carnatic Summer written by a reputable author be an invalid reference? And why is it that musicians like Seshanna can be mentioned by name in context of Mysore but not the the trinity in the case of Thanjavur. Lets not be so parochial, shall we? (Reddishmariposa (talk) 03:10, 5 April 2015 (UTC))


 * Reddishmariposa, I will make one further attempt to help you understand, but if you continue in this vein with inappropriate accusations, it will not be tolerated and you can expect to find yourself banned from editing here in that instance. References 9 to 18 in the article have been published and cited in reputable peer-reviewed sources (including highly reputed peer-reviewed journal articles on Carnatic music specifically). That is, the existing content in the section is verified by highest standard of reliable sourcing which ensures the article adheres to NPOV without providing undue weight to one position or another. It has been worked on over a number of years, not just a number of hours or days. A lot of people have wanted to include a lot of different things which they considered to be the truth or their POV without adequate regard to the literature and sourcing, but the article maintained stability due to that standard of sourcing and ensuring even talk page discussion is appropriate. I happen to wish there could be something inserted about Thanjavur in the section, but the sourcing on it that I found on it at the time was not up to the same high standard. The literature does not deal with it in such a straightforward and consistent manner either, so extra care is needed. Mayasandra is not attempting to exclude any sources because he does not agree with them; I am not either, but it comes down to the burden and standard being higher. Mayasandra went to the trouble of trying to help you and found the Weisman source, and made a proposal based on that. But as pointed out, strictly speaking, it is your responsibility to bring sources and proof of the same standard to the table which can be checked, and compared to the other literature, as it is actually you who wants to insert this content. At least the Vriddhagirisan source you've just cited is not as far below the standard as the others you proposed so far, but as those fail to meet the standard, you need to bring more to the table. If you won't, can't, or find that there is no more, that's unfortunate - but nothing can be done. I am sure by now there must be more, so we would be keen to review it if you find it. If find some ourselves, we will raise it too. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:04, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Ncmvocalist. Stop taking a threatening tone with me with "I will ban you etc". Explain to me why Pranesh which is a book written through an unknown publisher and referenced all over this article a peer-reviewed source. And not Tanjore Nayaks book cited above. I happy to rewrite a paragraph but not if spurious standards are going to applied.Reddishmariposa (talk) 03:49, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * It seems I wasn't clear. I am not saying Tanjore Nayaks is not a peer-reviewed source; I am saying that the sources you proposed to date were not peer-reviewed sources with the exception of Tanjor Nayaks, though none of the journal articles which cite that source appear to be about Carnatic music. Your misleading comment that "Pranesh is...referenced all over this article" is problematic given that Pranesh is only sourced for a single (1) paragraph in the article, not the whole article. It was inserted in the article based on consensus (and though I did not support it, I could not disagree that Pranesh was reviewed and relied on in "Carnatic Music, Kannada, and Kannadigas: Certain Moments from Princely Mysore" in the Journal of Karnataka Studies (2005)).
 * I do wish you would understand therefore why having more sources looked at (and at least mentioned in the discussion here) is not a bad thing or because of "spurious standards"; it will mean that editors can clearly point to here (where the sources were already detailed and considered), and why a rewrite which is inserted with consensus remains stable in the article in the future - and I am not just suggesting a rewrite in relation to inserting Thanjavur either. I trust that makes sense. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:24, 11 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The reason that paragraph on the instrumental musicians is there is it was an unique development in the history of South Indian music. Veena Sheshanna and Subbanna, along with Piteel Chowdiah and Doreswamy Iyeangar are among the greatest in that cadre. The team just kept it to two names. There are no shortage of sources that can corroborate that claim if you do a quick google book search. You have moved away from your earlier argument. You are repeatedly arguing on the inclusion of certain content, when most of the content is already there in the article (Trinity, Musicologist etc). Your main grouse the way I see it is the non-inclusion of the a line mentioning about the Tanjore Maratha patronage in the 16th century and the name of one musicologist (Govinda Dikshitar). I already provided a solution in the early part of this discussion when I took the trouble to bring two sources that does attest that the Tanjore was indeed a seat of Carnatic music in the 18th thru mid-19th century, but you want to include 16th century and 17th century as well, but have not produced any reliable sources.Mayasandra (talk) 00:34, 12 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Please don't take it as a criticism of you. But, I guess my general disappointment is the rampant geographical/linguistic bias that runs throughout this article in various subtle and not-so-subtle forms, making it less useful as an objective reference. If Veena Sheshanna was unique to instrument itself, and I don't disagree that he was influential and well-deserving of a mention, what about the person who designed the current form of that instrument itself? The modern Veena, often called Thanjavur Veena, was designed by none other than the Govinda Diskshitar in the court of Raghunatha Nayaka in Thanjavur. (See book Voice of the Veena S Balachander By Vikram Sampath or P. Sambamurthy, Vina through the ages ).  I personally don't have an axe to grind. But as someone who studies music, huge omissions such as the role of the Thanjavur kingdoms detracts from any objective value that the article may have.   Reddishmariposa (talk) 16:26, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 June 2015
Kanakadasa must be added to the list. He is on of the key Carnatic Composers.

2601:CF:8001:1121:DC26:4CC5:FE3A:B277 (talk) 11:45, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. I note that Kanaka Dasa is listed at List of Carnatic composers - please also elaborate on why he should be called out by name in this article as well. Thanks, -- El Hef  ( Meep? ) 17:19, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

addition of new state Telangana in the article
please add Telangana also in the southern states. Puducherry has also been left out please add.

a.rajaraman — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.255.103.203 (talk) 14:48, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
 * This is not supported by the referenced sources. If you have sources which would support your proposed insertion, please provide them here for usto consider. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:30, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Sources haven't been updated to include the new state because it was just formed, but it's self-explanatory that Carnatic music is widespread across the whole territory of the former state of Andhra Pradesh, which includes modern Telangana. To ignore this fact is to be unnecessarily pedantic. Beta.s2ph (talk) 19:21, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
 * There is no pressing urgency for the insertion in this encyclopedia article. In the meantime though, please familiarise yourself with WP:V, WP:OR, and WP:NPOV policies. I'm not saying what you want to add is completely wrong and can never be added to the article; I am saying that when it is added, it must comply with these pillars of Wikipedia. I hope you understand. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:56, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Adding recordings to the different pages related to Carnatic Music
Hello,

I have noticed the dearth of Carnatic music recordings on Commons and on Wikipedia and would love to fix this problem. Opinions and advice on the following would help me in understanding what works on Wikipedia and what doesn't work, and more importantly why it doesn't work.


 * 1) Should articles related to Carnatic music have recordings on them?
 * 2) How can the quality of a recording be identified? How important a role should notability of a performer play in the inclusion of the recording in a certain article?
 * 3) Should articles related to Ragas only include RTPs and Alapanais?
 * 4) What articles should recordings of compositions be included on? Raga articles or articles on composers?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arunasank (talk • contribs) 07:54, 13 July 2015 (UTC)


 * My two cents on your specific questions -
 * Carnatic music ocean can be searched on the internet. However, if we look for other Genres like Jazz there are many clips included in the article. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia - hence we have to choose the recordings for the right context.
 * Quality is an important factor, especially, with respect to slips by the performer - who will be able to confirm that the rendition is perfect for the context being quoted? If it is a raga article, then does that specific recording really conform perfectly to the raga? Does it really bring out the facets of the raga?
 * Why restrict to only RTPs / Alapanais? We should have open mind with respect to context - and if it fits probably we can include - however subject to the accuracy of rendition and quality of recording.
 * Recordings of compositions - would be again subject to context. In that sense, probably some composer's pages can include compositions. again notability of the particular composition and why it needs mention in that particular article would be important. For example, Tyagaraja has at least 500+ known compositions mentioned in books. Probably his "gems" can be included but one would question rarely sung compositions, which could then draw us into discussions on WP:UNDUE - where a frequently referred, sung / performed composition is given same weightage as a rarely performed composition. There should be some mention in 3rd party reviews on what is important of a particular composition or recording, and how it fits into the context of the article, etc.
 * There has been some previous discussion on my talk page regarding this topic after which I requested above user to write here. FYI. VasuVR  ( talk,  contribs ) 04:16, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 March 2016
"Please change Carnatic music, Karnāṭaka saṃgīta or Karnāṭaka saṅgītam is a system of music commonly associated with the southern part of the Indian subcontinent, with its area roughly confined to four modern states of India: Andhra Pradesh, Telangana, Karnataka, Kerala, and Tamil Nadu. to Carnatic music, Karnāṭaka saṃgīta or Karnāṭaka saṅgītam is a system of music commonly associated with the southern part of the Indian subcontinent, with its area roughly confined to five modern states of India: Andhra Pradesh, Telangana, Karnataka, Kerala, and Tamil Nadu. because the count is five now, not four."

Nilesh1993 (talk) 08:32, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅ - obviously not updated when Telangana and AP bifurcated - Thanks for pointing that out Arjayay (talk) 10:18, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

The list of regions should include North-east Sri Lanka where there is a Tamil population and Carnatic music is the de-facto classical music. Theowne (talk) 10:18, 14 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.246.40.54 (talk)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2016
In the part what the signatures are of each composer, under Dikshitar, add that his kritis always start with the name of the raga the kriti is in.

Also where we talk about kritis and varnams, it should not say kritis(keertanas). My teacher taught me that Keertanas are not the same thing as Kritis. Kritis are more complex and keertanas are learned first. For example, in krititis, one does not go back to the pallavi after the multiple charanams.

173.68.145.230 (talk) 03:25, 23 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. -- Dane 2007  talk 04:44, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 2 March 2017
The 'Therapeutic Effect' section of this article is currently stating that listening to Carnatic music will relieve pain. It has a single citation from the Times of India. This article refers to only one study, and no other information is given.

- How many people participated in this study? - What were the specific outcomes? - Were the people who conducted it impartial? - Were some of the participants exposed to different kinds of music, or no music as a control?

There is nowhere near enough evidence in that article for us to categorically state that it definitely does relieve pain. The best we can do is state that "some people claim" that it can.HappyGod (talk) 04:05, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

The 'Therapeutic Effect' Section
I'm announcing my intention to heavily edit this section to be more balanced. I've tried to source the citation that children perform better after exposure, and have been unable to do so. Unless someone can produce this research, or show me where to find it, I'm going to remove this claim.

Further, an article in a newspaper is not sufficient to categorically state that listening to Carnatic music will relieve pain. I am therefore going to change that statement to read "It has been claimed that ..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by HappyGod (talk • contribs) 03:05, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

The name 'Carnatic'
Can someone please explain where the name 'Carnatic' came from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.52.160.44 (talk) 22:21, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
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 * Muthuswami Dikshitar.jpg

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
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Semi-protected edit request on 22 October 2018
Hi, I was going through the article and found that in "Origins, sources and history" section, there's a reference to Yajnavalkya Smriti. I think if the quotation includes, along with the existing transliteration and translation, the Devanagari script, would be more informative.

वीणावादन तत्त्वज्ञः श्रुतीजातिविशारदः ताळज्ञश्चाप्रयासेन मोक्षमार्गं नियच्छति

Please ignore if this was intentionally left behind.

Thanks Chandanv89 (talk) 16:21, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done  D Big X ray ᗙ  14:00, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:Carnatic music for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Carnatic music is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Carnatic music until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America1000 06:28, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2019
After this paragraph below:

Carnatic music is usually performed by a small ensemble of musicians, consisting of a principal performer (usually a vocalist), a melodic accompaniment (usually a violin), a rhythm accompaniment (usually a mridangam), and a tambura, which acts as a drone throughout the performance. Other typical instruments used in performances may include the ghatam, kanjira, morsing, venu flute, veena, and chitraveena. The greatest concentration of Carnatic musicians is to be found in the city of Chennai.[3] Various Carnatic music festivals are held throughout India and abroad, including the Madras Music Season, which has been considered to be one of the world's largest cultural events.[4][5]

Requesting if you can add these lines below:

On April 7, 2019, a Chennai-based stand up comedian and carnatic music enthusiast Balaji Vijayaraghavan introduced the culture of open mics exclusively for carnatic musicians. This initiative was widely welcomed by few prominent musicians and enthusiasts from across the globe.

--- Supporting links for reference: 1. Indian Express - http://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/chennai/2019/apr/03/chennai-gears-up-to-welcome-carnatic-open-mic-nights-1959468.html - http://www.newindianexpress.com/videos/videos-other/2019/apr/13/tnie-explores-carnatic-open-mic-in-chennai-106777.html

2. The Hindu - https://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/music/carnatic-music-now-at-chennais-open-mics/article26734502.ece

3. dtNext - https://www.dtnext.in/News/City/2019/04/05002114/1113093/Carnatic-music-moves-from-concert-format-to-open-mic.vpf Mkvbalu (talk) 09:06, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
 * This strikes me as being excessive weight for the wider topic, and feels like promotion here. Izno (talk) 00:27, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 July 2019
Under the section "Performances of Carnatic music", we could list the popular presentation formats in which Carnatic music is delivered. Example: Akandam- Thematic carnatic compositions performed in a period of 24 hours by many musicians. Thyagaraja Aradhanai- A concert in honour of one of the saints of Carnatic Music, Carnatic Open Mics- A novel approach to make Carnatic Music more inclusive to musicians, Lec-dem- A lecture demonstration of Carnatic Music by academics etc. Vandanaguru93 (talk) 09:10, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Good idea, but please provide reliable sources. Regards, Willbb234 (talk) 13:07, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 January 2020
Melody Unlike classical Western music, Carnatic music is notated almost exclusively in tonic sol-fa notation using either a Roman or Indic script to represent the solfa names. Past attempts to use the staff notation have mostly failed. Indian music makes use of hundreds of ragas, many more than the church modes in Western music. It becomes difficult to write Carnatic music using the staff notation without the use of too many accidentals.

PLEASE ADD THE FOLLOWING TEXT TO YOUR ARTICLE AS I THINK IT SHEDS LIGHT INTO MORE CHALLENGES OF CAPTURING INDIAN CLASSICAL MUSIC IN WESTERN MUSIC NOTATION:

Carnatic music also involves alaps, gamaks, sangathis - subtle or heavy and simple or complicated ornaments/embellishments that are somewhat analogous to the concept of ornaments and melisma found in western classical music. Notating alaps, gamaks and sangathis using the staff notation might also be a challenge as one might have to look beyond a hemidemisemiquaver to capture the notes correctly in western music notation or even think of creative ways to fit carnatic music ornaments into established western music ornaments. Romeshcl (talk) 18:14, 25 January 2020 (UTC) Romeshcl (talk) 18:14, 25 January 2020 (UTC)


 * ❌. Please provide reliable sources that support this addition (Wikipedia is not a reliable source, nor is a blog). Please also beware of the WP:TONE of the writing. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon &bull; videos) 18:37, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2021
Indian classical music is divided into three branches, first is drupad dhamar second is Hindustani classical music and third is Karnatak classical music. Both the Hindustani classical music and Karnatak classical music is developed within last 6 or 700 year, but but drupad dhamar is very old. 2405:204:5789:4B84:FC1B:76E1:CE73:D3A5 (talk) 16:33, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -- DaxServer (talk) 16:35, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 September 2021
Could someone please revert the addition of a hatnote linking to the wikibook? This belongs in an "other projects" template, not in a hatnote at the start of the article. Thanks, 192.76.8.74 (talk) 21:35, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:07, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Music
What is temple music are they carnatic music or hindustani music 2001:4452:492:2D00:A9B2:A2F7:FDED:2EFA (talk) 06:19, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Why is the rishabham,gandharam,dhaivatham in carnatic music has 3 types in carnatic music
Hello actually I have a doubt regarding the the Carnatic notes so in the Rishabh gandharam devatham we have three types of notes why is this developed like this 117.243.29.106 (talk) 11:51, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Predominant Language
We know that Carnatic Music has Compositions in all 4 Dravidian Languages. But Telugu clearly dominates in Carnatic music. Most Compositions are in Telugu followed by Sanskrit. Then follow Tamil and Kannada. There are some bad edits made by someone recently which claim Kannada leads in predominance, which is false Telugu leads undoubtedly. I request you to edit the required. Twisting facts in favour of one language or presenting false information due to language pride is a Shame on Scholarly Analysis. The page being Semi Protected cannot be edited easily. The ones who can edit it please make the the changes. 2406:B400:B1:B70B:AA96:75FF:FE81:ECC0 (talk) 03:19, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Language comment doesn't make much sense
It says that most compositions are in "Kannada and Tamil, with a few in Telugu, Malayalam and Sanskrit."

This doesn't seem to reflect common practice. Most compositions sung are in Telugu or Sanksrit, secondarily some compositions sung are in Tamil, and relatively few are in Kannada or Malayalam. 142.112.238.249 (talk) 19:31, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2023
Carnatic Music originates from Tamil Pann which is an ancient system of music by Tamils. This history is completely ignored as South Indian Music or Indian music. This is the way Aryans having taken or borrowed music from Tamils and now deny this origin in order to own it for themselves. Joshva.Raja (talk) 16:32, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Please clearly specify the change you would like to make in the article (e.g., change X to Y) and please provide reliable sources for any new content you wish to add. --RegentsPark (comment) 16:51, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Carnatic music, seeking some nuanced details
Seeking some nuanced details regarding Carnatic music, @ Talk:R. K. Padmanabha

&#32;Bookku   (talk) 06:19, 13 January 2023 (UTC)