Talk:Carniolan honey bee

Remark
[P0M]: Somebody put a remark into the article about whether Apis mellifera carnia is to be considered a "race" or a "subspecies." See the subspecies Wiki article for further discussion. Both these terms are a bit messy, but for somewhat different reasons. Actually there are two kinds of problems, and the two are related to each other. One problem is whether there is a discernible group of bees that are clearly Apis mellifera carnica and another group that are clearly Apis mellifera ligustica -- "with only a narrow hybridization zone between them", or whether there is in fact a gradual shift from one kind to the other (a "clinal" change). There is a very clear difference between either of those two and Apis mellifera cypria because the Mediterranean Sea provides a forbidding barrier between Cyprus and the mainland. One of the experts who works on the spider article occasionally says that the more clearly you define the membership of a supposed subspecies the fewer individuals actually fit into it. It's easy to miss the real import of this idea. You could end up with a few colonies of "true Italians" and a few colonies of "true Carniolians" and very, very many colonies of "neither Italian nor Carnolians but some kind of mixed-breed whatever-they-are bees." That's one problem.

[P0M]: The other problem is just with the word "race." As it is applied by biologists, it is just a synonym for "subspecies," but it carries lots of baggage because it is regularly applied to human beings despite the fact that the biologists tell us that there is only one extant subspecies of human beings, Homo sapiens sapiens. If a race is a subspecies, then there is only one race, but many humans seem to want to talk about infra-subspecific differentiations of humans, e.g., the 19th century division of humans into Orientals, Caucasians, Africans... See the talk page for Race and follow through the last several years of debates on the subject if you really want to see some trenchant position holding.

[P0M]: I took out the statement "There is still some scientific debate if the Carniolans represent a subspecies or a race." It may not have been intended to say so, but it is easy to read it as though the question is whether to call the Carniolans a race or to call them a subspecies. Since the two words are synonyms, maybe the intention was to question whether bees ought to be divided into subspecies the way they are now. I think the average well-informed reader will go to the articles on race and on subspecies if s/he is interested in this kind of debate. Wheat is more likely is that the reader knows that there are bees that get called Carniolians and simply wants to know what they look like, whether they are commercially important, whether they are dangerous to humans minding their own business, etc. P0M 10:44, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Magzan68 (talk) 10:18, 10 December 2009 (UTC) : As the origin of Carnica seems to be unfortunately an issue of nationalism pride for Slovenia I want to point out that even the Agricultural Institute of Slovenia refered to RUTTNER (in the paper mentioned below) that "The Carniolan honey bee, Apis mellifera carnica Pollmann, is native to Slovenia and to some regions of the former Yugoslavia, southern Austria, and parts of Hungary, Rumania, and Bulgaria (RUTTNER, 1988)". In their study MOLECULAR CHARACTERISATION OF INDIGENOUS APIS MELLIFERA CARNICA POLLMANN IN SLOVENIA the authors S. SUŠNIK, P. KOZMUS, J. POKLUKAR, V. MEGLIČ concluded that "According to the results of molecular analysis, the Slovenian and Croatian honeybee population seems to be very uniform, almost undifferentiated" Therefore there is no scientific proof for the claim that the Carniola bee has its sole origin from Slovenia (within its nowadays borders)

File:Apis mellifera carnica worker hive entrance 3.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Apis mellifera carnica worker hive entrance 3.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on November 3, 2012. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2012-11-03. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! — howcheng  {chat} 18:58, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Awkward statements
"For areas with strong spring nectar flow and early pollination" sounds like a silly statement that should either be rewritten or eliminated. "Unless marked the dark queen is difficult to find" is definitely silly since all queen bees are difficult to find to novice beekeepers. The latter statement is purely subjective so the sentence is inappropriate and, honestly, pretty useless.

ICE77 (talk) 17:16, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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