Talk:Carnoustie/Archive 1

STD code
Yes, the STD code is definitely 01241; a code that it shares with Arbroath. -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:25, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Vehicle Registrations
I'm pretty certain vehicles registered in Carnoustie wouldn't be allocated a Glasgow number plate... Unfortunately I don't seem to be able to edit that out. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 14:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, that does seem a bit odd. I would expect SP-ST for Dundee and Angus. In fact I remember seeing SP registrations in Arbroath just before I left but perhaps they were for cars bought in Dundee. We really need to get confirmation from the DVLA. -- Derek Ross | Talk 14:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * To edit it, take a look at Template:Infobox UK place/numberplate where you will see that Angus is listed as one of the counties managed from the Glasgow DVLA office. If it truly is that would explain things. If not, that list will need to be edited. -- Derek Ross | Talk 14:43, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Gaelic origin of 'Carnoustie'
The name 'Carnoustie' has an uncertain etymology, and the hypothesis that it has a Gaelic origin is somewhat suspect. Given that there are at least two other possible etymologies, mention of the possible Gaelic origin should be limited to discussion in the main article. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 15:24, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Please discuss this below in the 'Placename in Gaelic section'Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 14:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Linen "industry" query
Reading the "Industry in Carnoustie section", I'm not sure at what point the linen "industry" was "industrialised" (references made to "industry" early in that section) vs. that later quote. Also, what was the arrangement prior to the opening of the "Panbride Bleachfield"? ("at which linen was bleached for the local industry") Harami2000 (talk) 23:04, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * 1857. 'Modernised' is probably a better description, there was obviously industry before the arrival of the power looms.


 * "In 1857, having acquired a feu of a large portion of ground on the Panmure estate, lying to the west of the village, and close to the railway, the firm of James Smieton and Son erected an establishment, named 'Panmure Works,' which in everything relating to the manufacture of jute and linen goods is considered perfect. (Dickson, 1874)"


 * The bleachfield would only have been necessary following the mechanisation of linen production. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk • contribs) 23:27, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I have edited the page to try to clarify these points. Let me know what you think Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 23:31, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "Modernised" reads better, thank you, as the industry was obviously "mechanised" prior to that date.
 * The point about the bleachfield only being necessary following the "mechanisation" of linen production might still require further clarification, however (in my non-linen-expert eyes, anyhow, for what it's worth!) to more precisely explain "why" (and also "why" at that specific point in the timeline).
 * *Lots* of good work in the expanded article, thank you. :) Regards, David. Harami2000 (talk) 23:39, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Commuter Settlement

 * At present, the "Tourism and Recreation in Carnoustie" section opens with a line describing the development of Carnoustie as a commuter settlement. Does this fact (and expanded timeline of its history from that p.o.v.) deserve a separate section, perhaps?
 * Development as a tourist resort seems to follow /after/ that, anyhow? Harami2000 (talk) 23:41, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think you're right... Perhaps a separate section on 'transport'? Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 23:45, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You're in the best position to make that call, I think! ;)
 * At present, "In addition to bringing industry to Carnoustie, the opening of the railway also made the town appealing to the middle classes, who used it as a commuter town for Dundee" /does/ flow on quite naturally from the previous section, but I wasn't going to casually break in with a new "Carnoustie as a commuter settlement" section at that point without checking with yourself first!
 * /Could/ work in a separate "transport" section (outwith "history") but might lose that timeline feeling you have at present. I suppose that depends on the manner in which you present that and how much more information is out there regarding the history of Carnoustie as a commuter settlement, but /current/ transport is not the same as "history of (transport)", however; which is how that particular lead-on is written (well) at present. Harami2000 (talk) 23:59, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've worked in a new 'commuter town' section, as it's also an important feature of Carnoustie today, with much of the population working in Dundee. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 10:46, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Tourism again

 * One more for tonight: although I said I wasn't going to touch the article leader yet, it does relate to other edits.
 * In that leader: "It was popular as a tourist resort from the early Victorian era up to the end of World War II," - IMHO, this probably requires further support in the "History"/"Tourism and Recreation in Carnoustie" section to back up the statement that it was a resort /that/ early: the "Brighton of the North" &c. refs are more towards early 20th Century and presumably/possibly late 19th). Also, "popular... until end WWII" I'd removed/re-edited lower down as that reads too "harshly" and Carnoustie /was/ still popular after WWII, just somewhat less so. Besides, "cheap" package holidays by 'plane to the Med didn't really kick off until a couple of decades after that date.
 * 02c in passing, anyhow, for general thoughts & any edits. David. Harami2000 (talk) 00:59, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've played down the WWII assertion. It probably started to declined at that time simply because of the popularity of other resorts, but specific references would be tricky to find.Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 10:49, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Carnoustie assessment scale
Copied from User talk:Pyrotec:

Thanks for the pointers for improving Carnoustie's Wikipedia page. I will take them on board and try to raise its quality to GA rating. Do you think more photos would improve the page? Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 09:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi, I've knocked the article around a bit since then and improved the referencing. Do you think it merits a higher rating yet? Thanks for all the help. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 21:12, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Its good, certainly B class, so I've changed it from C to B class. Note that the in-line citations are inconsistently placed: some are inside that comma / full stop and some are outside, that needs to be made consistent. I see that you have started the GA process - best of luck. Pyrotec (talk) 09:00, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Having had a second look, the second half your introduction (or lede as it is sometimes known) is all one sentence paragraphs. Some (all?) GA reviewers will not accept that, so they need combining in a logical manner. Also, it might be worthwhile reading WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements. Pyrotec (talk) 09:09, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've fixed that by removing the one sentence paragraph to the Twin Town section. It's important for some, but hardly defines the town. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 10:51, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Geography
I've added a Geography section. It needs references and wikified, which will be done in due course. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 22:08, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Done. Could probably do with a little more work. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 09:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Religion section
I feel this could probably do with being split into two subsections, history and current, like the education section. Thoughts anyone? Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 09:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * DoneCatfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 08:55, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I like what's being done in this article. It's about time we had another Scottish settlement grow and expand like this!


 * I'd be mindful to keep the sections and sub-section titles succinct, avoiding redundancy. So for example, Industry in Carnoustie could probably be better titled Industrial history or Industrial growth, whilst the Governance section is only two paragraphs and so doesn't need a sub-section (see also WP:MOSHEAD)


 * In addition to WP:UKCITIES (kindly pointed out above by Pyro), it might be worth looking at Scotland's only two FA settlement articles: Dundee and Neilston. Hope that helps. :) --Jza84 | Talk  21:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Placename in Gaelic
I'm interested in the concensus on placing the Gaelic 'Càrn fheusta' as a place name. Following discussion with local Gaelic speakers, it doesn't appear that Càrn fheusta is popularly used, but that the etymology is considered fairly compelling.

I have been unable to find any historical record of 'Càrn fheusta' and 19th century, 18th and 19th century explanations of the name 'Carnoustie' appear to be limited to the largely debunked folk etymology 'Cairn of Heroes/Hosts' explanation.

The Historical records I have found show Carnoustie (as a farm/estate, not the town) listed a:


 * Carnussie - Balmerino Abbey register c1575 (earliest record)
 * Karnousty - Faded name on Pont's map of c1583-96
 * Carnouslie - George Maule's title deeds 1672
 * Carnoustie - Adair's map of 1703
 * Cornisty - Roy's Military Survey 1747-55

However, I have not seen any historical Gaelic sources that mention the settlement (nor could I read them if I did), which may be due to my own limitations in searching for such material. Carnoustie is listed as 'Càrn fheusta' at http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaidhlig/faclair/sbg/lorg.php but the source is listed simply as Iain Mac an Tàilleir, who compiled the list of Gaelic placenames for the Scottish Parliament. However, Carnoustie is not listed on that list http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/gaelic/pdfs/placenamesC-E.pdf

Is 'Càrn fheusta' a conjectural neologism? Is there sufficient argument for putting it in the Lead and Info box?Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 14:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. Tricky one. One way forward for the etymology might be to look comparatively. There is another "Car-" settlement close by -- Carmyllie. Perhaps there are others. If they have a Gaelic provenance it would be reasonable to assume that Carnoustie does too. In which case we might as well accept the current term, even if it is conjectural. Fact is that current Gaelic speakers would more than likely write it as 'Càrn fheusta' even if it is a neologism.


 * Remember too that the WP way is to set out the options when it is unclear what is correct so that the reader gets the full picture. In this case that might mean adding an explanatory footnote (with the information that you set out above) to the first mention of the name. -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Bear in mind that the combination "fh" is 'silent. Càrn Fheusta would be approx. "cahrn oosta", which is quite close to the English version. As with all these things - including placenames in English/Lowland Scots, there are variants. --MacRusgail (talk) 15:34, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's accepted. I'm also interested with the potential parallel with 'Kingussie', Carnoustie having been first recorded as 'Carnussie' (I won't claim that as original thought, a local gaelic speaker mentioned it) Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 16:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Additional - I think DR is confusing two separate issues above. The issue is not the origin of the name "Carnoustie", but what the current Gaidhlig is. These are two separate things. In my opinion, for example, the proper Gaidhlig for Partick is "Pearraig", but "Partaig" gets used because it is a) derived from English, so wins out, and b) because the later migrants from the north Highlands called it that. However, evidence from the southern Highlands suggests that Pearraig is the proper form. (See Bho Chluaidh gu Calasraid by Michael Newton on the Partick question) In this case, it is worth listing both. This might be necessary here. After all, in the Edinburgh page, "Embra", "Edinburrie", "Edina", and "Auld Reekie" are all names which have been used in the same language.--MacRusgail (talk) 15:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I meant to discuss the two issues because I thought that Jim wanted to hear comments about both of them. My apologies for not making a clear separation between them. -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I think they're linked obviously, as the justification of giving it a gaelic name seems to be that it originates from gaelic. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 16:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm... How would a gaelic speaker respond to the question "cò às a tha thu?" Would 'Càrn Fheusta' be understandable? Would the golf Open Championship be referred to as being at Càrn Fheusta? Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 16:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

While we're at it, I've reverted the edit back from 'Carnoustie [...] possibly derives from the goidelic...' to '[...] possibly derives from the gaelic...'

I don't see any benefit in using goidelic rather than gaelic. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 21:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I have a reference for "Rock of the firtree" - carn na guithas; which appears to be quite close to Càrn ghiuthasaich, 'fort of the pines. Pyrotec (talk) 11:19, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem is that while the earliest form lacks the "t", it is close in time to other ones that retain it. If it's got the "t" in it, then it's unlikely to refer to "firs". Firs (as opposed to pines) have only become common in Scotland in more recent times - as I understand it. --MacRusgail (talk) 14:00, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that medieval gaelic speakers would have been that discriminating in their botanical terms. 'Fir tree' is used colloquially to refer to any coniferous tree, not just those of the genus Abies. In any case, it is the favoured etymology of Kingussie, which appears on maps around the same time, eg Bleau's map of 1654: http://www.nls.uk/maps/atlas/blaeu/page.cfm?id=118 Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 07:43, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Date of first record of golf at Carnoustie.
I've removed the assertion that golf was first recorded at Carnoustie in 1527. It was referenced, but it seemed a little odd, so I went to the original source (The Registrum de Panmure) and, right enough, it was a misquote:

Of Robert Maule we derive some picturesque notices from the family MS. :-

He left tuo sonnes, as I heaw said, of the quhilkis the eldest wos callit Robert, quha wos then ane yonge man of saxten zeiris of age, and did succeid to his father, and wos the tent of our hows. He mariit to his vyf Isobelle Merser, daughter to Laurence Merser of Montlower; hir mother wos Wardlawe of Torrie: scho had thre sisters by hir self of quhome the eldest wos mariit on Gilbert Gray of Benderren, brother to the lord Graym quha bear to him thre sonnes, the eldest Patrik, efter lord Graym the second Robert Gray of Drummelie, and James of Buttergask. The second ves lady Caslogy in Fyf. The thridm lady Renkelour Sibbald, quhilkes tua howsses ar bothe discendit of the tua sisters. The lady Panmore wos ane maist verteus lady, for in hir tyme Robert gat ane tak of the heale teyndis of the paroece of Panbryd of Dauid Beton, cardinale, and abot then of Abirbrothe. He gat ane letter of Balzeirie of the baronie of Barrie fra the abot callit Foster. He conquisit fra James Carnegy the landis of Carnegy, lykuays he payit the towchers of the lard of Panlathys tua dochtirs, quha wer ayres, and gat thay landis. He wos withe the Earle of Lennox at the battel of Lynlythgow, for the quhilk he tuk remission. He wos efter wardis hwrt at the bwrne of Barrie be the lard of Balfour in Angus callit Ogilwy, and the lard of Fintrie, quha takin ane poynd owt of Panlathy and passine throwe Barry weil accompanyeit, he on adventur did meit them, beine thear at his pastyme, and opponinge him self o them, vos ewil wondit. The mater heirefter wos agreit, and the annuel that wos auchtand to the lard of Balfour, furthe of the landis of Panlathyn wos quat be Balfour. The lard of Fintrie geawe him infeftment of the milne of the mains of Stradichty, redemabil vpon the hwnder merkes for his part. The cardinal then beine ane gryt courteour, and head of the kirk of Scotland, fauoret the lardis of Balfour and Fintrie, for the lard of Fintreis vyf wos then Beton, quhilk wos the caws the mater wos so sone composit. This wos the zeir of God 1527 or thear about... The yeir of God 1548, he wos takine be Englismen, and his eldest sone Thomas owt Panmore be the conuoy of certaine Scotishmen then fauorers of England. In the takine he vos schot with ane coulwerine in the chaftesm and evil hurt. Theay wor led away withe diligence to the forthe at Bruchty. Thomas his eldest sone wos relewit be Patrick lord Grayes moyen, quha the did assist England, bot Robert vos send away in ane shipe to London quhar he wes emprisonet in the Towr thearof ane zeir. He wes relewit without ransone for the Marquess of Albef com to England owt of France and gat syndry prisoners relewit, withe quhome Robert come home. He wos ane man of comlie behauior, of hie stature, sanguine in colloure bothe of hyd and haire, colerique of nature, and subiect to suddane anger, ane natural man, expert in the lawes of the countray, of gud langage, expert in countine of genealogies. Durine the lord Grayes wardine quhilk, wes for the space of sewine zeires he occupiit the sherefshipe. Dwrine his first wyues tyme, he did caws build the hows of Panmore, as it is at this day; he wos wery temperat of his mouthe, bot gewin to leicerie, ane abil man on fwt, and ane gud horsman, lyket weil to be honorable in apparel, and weil horset, mikil honorit withe his nychboures, and in gud estimatione. He had gryt delyght in haukine and hountine. He tuk pleswr in playine at the fut bale, and for that caws th mwr of Bathil wos appointed, and dwrine his dayes it wos not castine, bot only reserwit for that game; lykwayes he exerciset the gowf, and oftymes past to Barry lynkes, quhan the wadfie vos for drink. If he tint, he newir vald entir in ane browster hows, bot cawsit ane of his serwandis to gange and pay for al. He wos withe the Lord Gray at the brige of St. Jhonstone, and vos ane of the first that did entir in the towne, quhar he vos teane be the lord Ruthen, bot wos schortlie delywerit. He lewit lytil ower tua zeires efter his vyf Isabelle Arbuthnots deceas, and vos seiklie thearefter, and become very penitent of his former lyf, and embraced the Reformed religione. He had withe him at syndry tymes the ministers that then wor cheifest in the countray, to wit Paule Meffane and Jhon Brabner. This Jhone was ane vehement man, inculcatine the lawe, and peane thearof; bot Paule Meffane wos ane mair myld mane, preachine the Ewangel of grace and remissione of sinnes in the blud of Christ. His yongest sone begottine on the first vyf, callid Robert, ane godly persone gewine to redine of the scripture, did nychtlie valk besyd his father, instructine him in the cheif points of religione, for he wos ane man that had beine brought vpe rudlie vithout letters, sa that he could nather reid nor vreit. At lenthe efter he had beine diseasit the space of tua zeires, withe ane fluxm he rederit his spirit to God, the thrid day of Maij, the zeir of God ane thowsand, fywe hunder and threscor zeires, the threscor and thre zeir of his age, tuentie zeires and thrie day efter his first vyues deathe Isabelle Merser, quha deceassit the last day of Aprile, the zeir of God ane thowsand fywe hundrethe and fourtie zeires, and wes buriit besyde hir in the queir of Panbryd befor the hie alter at the northe pale. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk • contribs) 16:05, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Definitely proves that golf was played here before 1560 though. The order of the text tends to suggest that it was being played before 1540 too. -- Derek Ross | Talk 17:05, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It's tricky to figure out the timeline from the passage, simply for the reason that it's difficult to read (let alone transcribe!).


 * As far as I can interpret it, his first wife, Isobelle Merser, died in 1540, then he married Isabelle Arbuthnott, who died in 1558, at which point he became ill and repented of his former ways, and lived a further two years, and died in 1560. Which would date golf prior to 1558.Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 08:47, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Thomas Lowson and the origin of Carnoustie
It's a charming story, how in 1797, Thomas Lowson fell asleep in the dunes halfway between Westhaven and Barry, decided to build a house, and a town sprang up around him. However, it's not altogether historically accurate and I'm going to edit the article a little to down-play his importance.

Aside from the fact that Carnoustie has annexed a number of earlier villages and settlements during its growth, even the earliest records of Carnoustie mention it as a 'town' ('toun and lands of Carnussie set to ffairny'). And burial records from the parish of Barry prior to Lowson taking up a feu would suggest there was a fairly decent sized settlement there (these do not include surrounding villages, which are usually explicitly named):


 * snip*


 * In early times, a "toun" was the group of buildings on a farm which housed the farmer, his workers, their families and the farm animals. It wasn't a "town", in the modern sense. So the "toun and lands of Carnussie" in modern terms probably means the "farm of Carnoustie". Having said that, some of these fairm touns were quite large and did eventually form the nucleus of a modern village or town. So the origin of Carnoustie could well have lain in this toun. -- Derek Ross | Talk 18:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

GA review, article stability and citations
The article is at a point where I'm going to leave it alone as I'm fairly happy with most of it.

There's a couple of 'citation needed' tags still that need sorted. The first is for the gaelic 'Càrn ghiuthasaich' 'fort of the pines' etymology. This is sort of mentioned in a post on the Angus RootsWeb list from 1999:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/ANGUS/1999-07/0932421657

From a book that I have on Scottish Place Names by Chambers it says the following about Carnoustie

'rock of the pinewood' carraig (Gaelic) rock; giuthas (Gaelic) pine -, or firewood

They have the less likely 'carraig' (rock) and an older spelling (?) of 'giuthasaich' for (pinewood or firwood). I'd prefer to cite the book itself, but have been unable to find it.

The second is for cup and ring marks in the surrounding area. I can provide references for marks found near Forfar, but I know of much closer marks... Marks have been found at Old Downy, about a mile from Carnoustie, which would obviously make a more convincing case for late Neolithic occupation of the area. Finding published references to these, or equivalent marks is proving difficult. I could get hold of photographs of the stone in question, but as they are no longer in situ, this would probably be classed as hearsay or 'original research'

The next is for a citation for the Craig Hill Broch. It's shown on OS maps, but I'd prefer a specialist publication. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 08:43, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Found something in the Tayside and Fife Archaeological Journal indexes... will hunt it out. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 14:06, 20 September 2008 (UTC)