Talk:Carolina Panthers/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: Shudde (talk · contribs) 06:10, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I'll try and get the review under-way shortly. Once I start I'll go through and add comments/questions as I read through the article; these won't necessarily be points that need to be addressed for the article to pass, but I'd probably be good to try and address them all—even if just a comment/clarification. Once I've done that I'll try and give a summary, and whether or not I believe the article has met the criteria. I view this process as collaborative so I invite comments and questions from the nominator. - Shudde  talk 06:10, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Comments:
 * First thing, there is only one image other than the logo. I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect more on such a topic. A quick search on commons shows a few photos that should be okay are there. Maybe see if there are any images that will improve to the article and add them.
 * I've added a few more images.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Not sure that there is a need for two images of the stadium. How about removing one of those and having one for John Kasay—who apparently has the most points for the team? - Shudde  talk 10:13, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Good idea, done. I've retained the external structure image.  Toa   Nidhiki05  17:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Team history: Logo and uniforms
 * "To help promote the idea of football in the Carolinas, Richardson Sports held three preseason games in Raleigh, North Carolina, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, and Clemson, South Carolina, respectively, from 1989-1991 and formally filed an application in 1991 for the open expansion bid." - this sentence is pretty long, and talks about "Richardson Sports" without introducing it. Also ndash for dates?
 * Fixed.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe a brief (very brief—half sentence) on who Jerry Richardson is, considering his importance to the existence of the team.
 * Elaborated on to note he is a businessman and former NFL player.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "The Panthers began play in the 1995 NFL season" - 'began play' doesn't make it explicitly clear that this was their inaugural season.
 * Fixed.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think this second paragraph is a bit long; is there a way it can be split up?
 * Done.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "abysmal" - may be WP:AVOID - I think 1 win and 15 losses speaks for itself
 * Done.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * maybe a footnote on what "second-best" is
 * Modified it to note in-sentence.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Would "conceded" be better than "allowed"? - Shudde  talk 10:13, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that works pretty well, so added.  Toa   Nidhiki05  17:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you may want a quote rather than saying " hailed as one of the greatest Super Bowls ever." - better to actually quote a respected commentator (also, Peter King should be listed as the author of the http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/peter_king/02/02/mmqb/ piece ref [13]). Either that or find a couple more independent sources that say the same thing.
 * Done.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "The Panthers finished 7-9 in 2004, a season where the team lost 14 players for the season due to injury." - a footnote on the average size of the squad/roster may give this fact better context
 * Added.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Would it better to say "NFL rosters may consist of up to 53 active players"? That may make it a bit clearer. - Shudde  talk 10:13, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Done.  Toa   Nidhiki05  17:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "blown out" might be a bit colloquial
 * Changed.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "turned the ball over" is there an appropriate wiki-link for this?
 * Linked.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "throwing 18 interceptions" - in how many matches, again, context is important
 * Added.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Is that a particularly high number? approx. 1.5 per game? - Shudde  talk 10:13, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It depends. Many 'elite' quarterbacks throw under or around 10 or 12 interceptions a season, but Drew Brees, considered one of the best quarterbacks in the league, threw 19 interceptions last season... he also threw 43 touchdowns and over 5,000 yards. Delhomme only threw for eight touchdowns and 2,015 yards. Generally speaking, you had better have a lot of yards and touchdowns if you throw that many picks.  Toa   Nidhiki05  17:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Panthers recorded a league-worst 2-14" - i'm confused, wasn't there mention of a 1-15 season earlier? Is that a league-worst for the season, or ever?
 * 'League-worst' refers to a specific season. They were the worst team in terms of overall record that season. Modified to note it is that particular season.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * " John Fox, whose contract expired after the season, was not retained after the season, as well as his staff." - this reads poorly and consequently is not at all clear
 * Modified to be clearer.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe be more explicit regarding why Rivera kept his job, the ref says it was after they started 1-5, but finished 7-9.
 * Done.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "The team name 'Panthers' had been the one the Richardsons had always wanted to give to their football team." - apostrophe? Also doesn't read particularly well
 * Apostrophe is not needed because no possession is implied, but I have reworded it.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * True—don't know what I was up to there!
 * " The Panthers organization ultimately decided on white, black, and blue jerseys with white and silver pants" versus "Eventually, the team settled on white, black and blue jerseys to be matched with white and silver pants." - this may be close paraphrasing (probably not though); however I think that you should double check this section as it relies heavily on that one source. Might be worth giving it a bit of a rewrite to avoid any chance of Close paraphrasing — I'm not an expert on this, and personally think it's ok, but it might be worth your time.
 * Modified to avoid close paraphrasing.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Stadium
 * "entrances - according " mdash
 * Done.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * maybe don't abbreviate PSL
 * Modified to note what a PSL is and then abbreviate it.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * " purportedly " implies that maybe the weather wasn't the real reason. Nate Silver's article is pretty speculative, is there another RS to support this?
 * I've changed it for now. I swear there were plenty of sources alleging this, but I guess not.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I remember when this happened, and a lot of the discussion about that was pretty speculative. If you find a more RS then maybe it could be added in the future. - Shudde  talk 10:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Culture
 * Could more be said about Sir Purr and Carolina Topcats - for example the inspiration for the mascot? Could you be more specific about their role-not all readers will be familiar with this aspect of NFL matches.
 * I've expanded a bit on them, as well as the drumline. If there is a need for a more general description of mascots please let me know.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:55, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks good - Shudde  talk 10:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Why was Rosinski fired?
 * I elaborated a bit on it - basically, the Panthers did not say, but Rosinski believes it is because of a comment he had made in an interview.
 * What is a "color commentator"?
 * I have linked it; essentially, a color commentator assists the play-by-play commentator by offering analysis, background information, etc. when there is no play going on.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:55, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Why is the section "Training camp and practice facility" located where it is, and not in the Stadium section?
 * I more or less based it off of the Kansas City Chiefs page, which is a good article.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:55, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not really a believer that all articles on similar topics should be set-out the same way; especially if only for consistencies sake. It seems like something that should be included in stadium (which is their main "facility", and these training grounds are actually attached to it). If there is a reason to keep it where it is then I can accept that, but keeping it there because article XYZ does seems odd to me. - Shudde  talk 10:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree, didn't notice that before. I've moved it to the 'Stadium' section and renamed it to 'Stadium and practice facilities'.  Toa   Nidhiki05  17:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Rivalries
 * "230 miles" - conversion to SI would be good; see WP:MOSNUM
 * Good catch, added a conversion to kilometers.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Is it possible to round this to the nearest km? - Shudde  talk 10:51, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. :)  Toa   Nidhiki05  17:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "In games over the years the Panthers have had defensive tackle Kavika Pittman's career end on a block from Tampa Bay's Kenyatta Walker and the Bucs have had quarterback Chris Simms lose his spleen after being hit simultaneously from both sides by Carolina defensive players.[60] " — this whole sentence reads poorly and is very difficult to understand
 * Reworded.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This does read better, but could probably do with more work. - Shudde  talk 10:51, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've reworded it a bit more.  Toa   Nidhiki05  17:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Notable players
 * is "Notable players" an appropriate title when it include the current roster, wouldn't "Players" be better?
 * Changed.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Pro Bowlers - a sentence introducing this might be good; with a wiki-link if possible.
 * Done.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hall of Honor - how are the inductees chosen?
 * Added.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Ownership and administration
 * "Jerry Richardson is the owner and founder of the Carolina Panthers" - part-owner?
 * He is considered the owner by NFL standards because he owns a plurality of the team. His partners are part-owners, but he is the owner.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Might be worth adding a footnote clarifying that. - Shudde  talk 10:51, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Done.  Toa   Nidhiki05  17:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * " Richardson paid 206 million dollars for the team in 1993;" inconsistent with earlier in the article, should read "paid $206 million"
 * Fixed.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

lead
 * Should explicitly say "American football" team—American English is no excuse for omitting this; readers shouldn't be expected to click the link to clarify this
 * I don't see the real issue with this (the New York Jets, a GA, use the term 'football'), but edited.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It should be changed in the New York Jets article. There are many codes of football, and the opening sentence of an article should be clear. Featured Articles are a better standard to use; GA's can vary in quality. - Shudde  talk 10:51, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, that makes sense.  Toa   Nidhiki05  17:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * " teams in the NFL to own their own stadium," - "own their stadium"?
 * Changed.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * " with their most recent season (2012) ending with a 7-9 record" just better to say " with their 2012 season ending with a 7-9 record"
 * Edited.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Might be good to have a sentence in there about rivalries and uniforms (even if just half a sentence on each)
 * Done.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Overall
 * There are a couple of other things I think should be included:
 * Information on team and individual records. Doesn't need to be comprehensive, but at least the most notable records.
 * I've noted the major team and individual record-holders.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This should be delisted as per Manual of Style/Embedded lists - Shudde  talk 10:51, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * More prose regarding the head coaches in the "Ownership and administration" section; again doesn't need to be much, even if it only discusses the most notable/prolific coaches.
 * I've noted all of them, since there have only been four coaches.  Toa   Nidhiki05  21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Other than that pretty happy. I think the article is referenced adequately, and other than those two things above, the broadness criteria is met. Would be good to see more images, and there are obviously a few things with prose, but nothing really bad. Good work on the article; I'll place it on hold. Feel free to ping me on my talk page if you have any questions/comments. I'll try and check back here regularly if you have anything to ask. - Shudde  talk 08:23, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

New comments
 * This is something that will not influence whether the article passes or not, but it may be a good idea to have a look at WP:DASH—there are many hyphens where ndashes should be. It will make the article much more attractive if the scores all use ndashes (for example "losing 32–29" rather than "losing 32-29"). - Shudde  talk 10:51, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll see what I can do with those.  Toa   Nidhiki05  17:30, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Great. Congratulations, really good work. I've passed the article. - Shudde  talk 11:17, 30 April 2013 (UTC)