Talk:Carrie Johnson

Article history
I moved the page due to unnecessary disambiguation. Other versions have been speedily deleted and a draft at Draft:Carrie Symonds was declined. However, this should not be speedily deleted - she has a credible claim to independent notability for her PR/comms work and campaigning. Please discuss at AfD if you do favour deletion. Fences &amp;  Windows  07:06, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Infobox problem
I don't know how it works in the Great Britain, but it looks like Marina Wheeler cannot be a spise of Carrie Symonds as she divorced her husband, Boris Johnson in 2018. If I'm right, let me know and I correct the Infobox; otherwise I won't touch it. --2601:1C0:CB01:2660:78F2:2153:816F:27D0 (talk) 03:09, 29 September 2019 (UTC) spise = spouse (misspelling) --2601:1C0:CB01:2660:78F2:2153:816F:27D0 (talk) 03:10, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I totally agree, just stumbled over it myself. I purged Wheeler from the box. If anyone wants this connection in, why not put it in the article itself? --Teeke (talk) 08:12, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Introduction
Symonds is introduced almost entirely in terms of Boris Johnson. Hopefully there's more to her than that? Howard.noble323 (talk) 19:08, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The issue is notability, she may not have anything else notable about her apart from this relationship, doesn't mean she doesn't have anything else, as ever we need to follow the sources. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 19:22, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:52, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Carrie Symonds.png

Boris Johnson's divorce from Marina Wheeler
Boris Johnson's divorce from Marina Wheeler has not been finalized. In February 2020, it was reported that they had reached a financial settlement, and it appears some people have mistaken that to mean they are divorced.
 * The Guardian, 18 February 2020: "A family court judge on Tuesday approved a financial settlement and gave Wheeler permission to apply for a divorce decree which will bring the marriage to an end."
 * The Independent, 18 February 2020: "Boris Johnson and his estranged wife Marina Wheeler have reached a financial settlement, a family court judge in London has heard." ... "Judge Sarah Gibbons gave Ms Wheeler permission to seek a divorce decree, which would dissolve their marriage."
 * The Times, 19 February 2020: "Boris Johnson’s estranged wife has been given the go-ahead to apply for a divorce after a family court judge imposed an exceptional reporting restriction on the case." ... "The prime minister and Marina Wheeler have reached a financial settlement two years after their split, a court was told yesterday."
 * The Telegraph, 18 February 2020: "At the end of the hearing, Ms Wheeler was given permission to apply for a divorce decree that will bring the marriage to an end."

Please stop editing to say Johnson "was" married to Wheeler when they are still legally married. The past tense should not be used until there are reliable sources which state that they have actually divorced. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 22:57, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Should we put in the word "technically" this can help? Stay safe, EditQwerty  (talk) 09:19, 30 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I don't see why it would need to be? "Legally" perhaps, but I have added in the main body that they are in the process of divorce. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 12:24, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

It says it in the Personal life section. I have removed it from the lead, we can't repeat the same thing. Stay safe, EditQwerty  (talk) 13:20, 30 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I was initially going to agree that perhaps it isn't relevant enough for the lead, however the lead also notes that "Symonds first became prominent when her affair with Johnson became public." That part should definitely be kept as it is explaining how she became notable. So, does removing mention of the marriage make the "affair" context less clear? Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 13:29, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Okay. I have put "Symonds first became prominent when her affair with Johnson became public." in the Personal life section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EditQwerty (talk • contribs) 13:35, 30 April 2020 (UTC)


 * That's not what I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear. That doesn't need to be mentioned in her Personal life section as that area does not need to establish while she is notable (the lead does, however) – I have reverted your 2 edits. I meant that I wasn't sure if the lead saying she first became notable due to their affair then needed to mention his marriage in the same area, but I suppose it doesn't. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 13:42, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Sure. Stay safe, EditQwerty  (talk) 15:17, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

There are reliable sources which state that Johnson and his former wife Marina Wheeler have divorced, so I was updating the article to reflect this, since it already said they were in the "process" of getting divorced. It's possible that only tabloids covered the story because there was a lot of other news at the time the divorce was finalised. It is odd that mainstream non-tabloid British newspapers don't appear to have reported it, and many of the websites which did are Indian, owing to Marina's paternal heritage. Maybe mentioning the previous marriage does give "undue weight" to that part of the story, but since you objected, and reverted my edit, it seems the only solution is to remove details of the divorce altogether. It's clear that they are divorced now. TrottieTrue (talk) 23:31, 28 October 2020 (UTC)


 * If there are reliable sources confirming the divorce, it shouldn't be difficult for you to provide them. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 23:33, 28 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Evidently you don't consider the Daily Mirror to be "reliable", but that seems to be the main source for this news story. As it says they are in the "process" of divorcing, it needs updating. TrottieTrue (talk) 23:43, 28 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Re. the Daily Mirror's reliability, see WP:RSP and WP:MREL. There are numerous reliable sources above which state they are in the process of divorce. Given how high-profile Johnson is, if their divorce had been finalized there would be numerous reliable sources reporting on it. There aren't, so there is nothing to update. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 23:52, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Marina Wheeler recently gave an interview in The Sunday Times which confirms she and Johnson are divorced so I have updated the article. It's under a paywall but is also referenced in this Tatler article. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 20:55, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

In the personal life section it says, "She reportedly began an affair with British politician Boris Johnson, then the Foreign Secretary, in 2018 while he was still married to his second wife, Marina Wheeler."

He was technically married, but they had split up in early 2018, so this "fact" is misleading. If you look at the source for this quote, there are no proven dates given for the start of the affair, so that quote should be removed.194.207.191.9 (talk) 22:19, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

McAfee
Cannot find a single McAffee spelling in any source, including Matthew Symonds' Wikipedia entry. Marriage recorded of Patrick McAfee and Josephine Susan Lawrence in 1971 in The Times and Free BMD. Nswhistorian (talk) 23:24, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Here are a few example spellings:
 * BBC News (as used in this article): McAffee
 * The Independent (who she worked for): Mcaffee
 * The Guardian: Mcaffee
 * The Telegraph: Mcaffee
 * Cosmopolitan: McAffee
 * The Evening Standard: Mcaffee
 * The Express: McAffee
 * The Express (as used in the Matthew Symmonds article): Mcafee
 * The Sun: McAfee
 * The Daily Mail: McAfee
 * The Irish Times: McAfee,
 * So it seems pretty clear that most reliable sources use "Josephine Mcaffee". I suggest we switch to that with a lower case 'a' and The Independent as a source. TwoTwoHello (talk) 11:30, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Political influence
This Guardian article refers repeatedly to her role in the resignation of Lee Cain, and states that a, "battle for influence with the prime minister was being slowly won by Symonds and her allies": https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/11/lee-cain-pms-senior-aide-resigns-amid-infighting-at-no-10

The WP article mentions a controversy over lobbying on farming culls, but the Guardian article seems to show a different order of involvement. Is the media just making stuff up, promoting some interest, or is there a scent of boudoir cabinet? Shtove (talk) 14:36, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * More from the Guardian: "One Conservative backbencher said Symonds could lead what amounted to an alternative power base within Westminster, lined up against Michael Gove and Cummings and allied to Stratton, who – against the wishes of Cain – is to become the face of the government’s new briefings. “Carrie is very much pushing on this,” they said." https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/13/how-dominic-cummings-and-carrie-symonds-vie-for-boris-johnsons-attention Shtove (talk) 11:21, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Political influence over Johnson's staff
Symonds has been widely reported in national news media as being behind the removal of Johnson's adviser Dominic Cummings from his position following Cummings referring to  Symonds as Princess Nuts Nuts in text messages briefings to MPs, a practice which had been in wide use for some time. 24 No vember 2020 (UTC).

https://nypost.com/2020/11/14/boris-johnson-axes-top-aide-over-princess-nut-nuts-insult/

https://www.tweet247.net/united%20kingdom/princess%20nut%20nuts

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/furious-boris-johnson-axed-dominic-23011579

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8948729/No-10-braces-explosive-stunt-Cummings-Princess-Nut-Nuts-gave-coup-grace.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.185.71.174 (talk • contribs) 08:42, 15 November 2020 (UTC)


 * These are not reliable sources, see WP:RS. And please stop removing your signatures added by SineBot. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 12:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)


 * I have tidied up the above comment to remove multiple, confusing auto-'signatures' in a way that meets with the approval of Abbyjjjj96.

Disputed
There is a Disputed template on the article. Please explain what is disputed, DXLB Muzikant. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 16:28, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * It has been removed by another editor. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 16:57, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * This was before the Protection, it was used to tell that due to the recent bad rep this will probably be biased DXLB Muzikant (talk) 17:36, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 May 2021
Time in Number 10

Information about Ms Symonds time as the Prime Minister’s fiancé in number 10 Downing Street is required.

This should include work Ms Symonds carried out, as well as media reports of her work to redecorate the private apartment. YesScotland1990 (talk) 02:37, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (talk) 03:06, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Carrie Johnson
Should this article be renamed "Carrie Johnson" now, with "Carrie Symonds" redirecting to it? She has taken his name. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 13:32, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That article just says "It is understood Ms Symonds will take her husband's surname and be known as Carrie Johnson." Which suggests that she hasn't changed name yet. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 14:06, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
 * You are right. I think I misinterpreted the "A Number 10 source confirmed that Ms Symonds will make the surname switch after the pair’s secret Saturday wedding ceremony" part since the wedding has occurred. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 15:35, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I was going to switch the changes in the article back to Symonds but, on another reading, I'm not sure if that wasn't an announcement of the switch? Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 15:39, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
 * For now I'm just leaving the contents and the article as they are. No doubt this will all become clear quite soon, but until then I'm not bothered by the apparent inconsistency. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 20:59, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The BBC is referring to her as Carrie Johnson (apart from the first paragraph on her as his fiancée): . It also says she has taken the name. —Nizolan (talk · c.) 22:10, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I noticed that on the radio this morning. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 08:43, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, Symonds has taken Johnson's surname and RS are now referring to her as Carrie Johnson. See BBC "Carrie Johnson: Who is the prime minister's wife?", and Telegraph "who has since taken her husband’s name" StoneKommittii(talk)15:55, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, it should be 'Carrie Johnson'. I remember when Meghan Markle married Harry, there was some confusion if her name should be 'Meghan Markle' (which she was known as by the media) or 'Meghan, Duchess of Sussex' (formal title) and the latter was preferred. Even if she is still known as Symonds by the media for now, she is still formally Carrie Johnson. Castlemore7 (talk) 17:01, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

This gets complicated. You would already have needed a formal move request, and it's not obvious that she is the primary meaning of "Carrie Johnson", since we have an Olympic canoeist and a journalist of this name. PatGallacher (talk) 22:09, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Until the legal name supercedes common name like Victoria Beckham (at this point how many people remember her maiden name is Adams?), I don’t see a reason to spring into action two days into media reports. Trillfendi (talk) 22:50, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure how her article will distinguished from the other two Carrie Johnson's. She's not known for anything other than being the Prime Minister's wife and I don't think Carrie Johnson (Wife of Boris Johnson) or Carrie Johnson (Wife of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom) really works. JugulatorJJ (talk) 02:03, 1 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree this is tricky and Carrie Symonds is probably fine for now as per WP:MAIDEN ("people sometimes change their surnames, particularly on marriage ... The general rule in such cases is to title the article with the name by which the person is best known"). At the disambiguation page Carrie Johnson she is currently listed as "Carrie Johnson (born 1988)" fwiw, but that sort of qualifier isn't preferred. For a very similar case, there was a long and tedious series of discussions over at Sarah Brown (m. Gordon) which can be referenced at Talk:Sarah Jane Brown/Archive 1 onwards (sadly we don't seem to have the middle name option here). That one was in fact titled "Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown)" for some time, but Talk:Sarah Jane Brown/Archive 2 showed consensus against a "wife of" qualifier in that case.
 * If there is consensus to move it to "Carrie Johnson (X)" then my own inclination would be another of the options mooted there, "(Prime Minister's spouse)"—"United Kingdom" isn't necessary because there aren't any other Carrie Johnsons married to prime ministers knocking around. —Nizolan (talk · c.) 02:50, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Is it even necessary for it to be "Carrie Johnson (X)"? She is much more high-profile than the other two CJ's. Could it not just default to her article with an other template or a redirect template at the top? Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 19:31, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I personally wouldn't object to just moving it to "Carrie Johnson" and seeing if anyone complains as a first bold step. —Nizolan (talk · c.) 19:52, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

The Guardian has a new article where she's Carrie Johnson. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 19:27, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 2 June 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved per WP:SNOW  (t &#183; c)  buidhe  21:14, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Carrie Symonds → Carrie Johnson – Technical request was declined so here is the RM. A broad range of media now refers to her as Carrie Johnson, viz., The Guardian, The Telegraph, The Times, BBC News, Evening Standard, The Sun (note that these make up a broad range of stories, too, and not just coverage of the wedding). Remaining coverage referring to her as Symonds is almost entirely describing her before the marriage. There are presently two other Carrie Johnson articles, but this article appears to be the primary topic: she already features far more frequently than others on Google for "Carrie Johnson", making up 12 of 29 results on the first 3 pages by my search as opposed to 1 for the canoeist and 1 for the journalist, though this may vary depending on the user. —Nizolan (talk · c.) 13:58, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Survey

 * Support as nom. —Nizolan (talk · c.) 13:58, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Support. Looks like our way is clear. Elizium23 (talk) 14:04, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:NAMECHANGES. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 14:34, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Support made up of strong support for moving to some variety of "Carrie Johnson" and weak suppport for her being the primary topic (she clearly is right now, but it is not obvious to me that this will be true long term). Jonathan A Jones (talk) 15:08, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Support That's her name. StoneKommittii (talk) 19:30, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak Support as long as she retains her original name. But i think it is no problem to move. 36.77.101.47 (talk) 23:52, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Retains her original name? She has changed her name on social media.StoneKommittii (talk) 11:37, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:NAMECHANGES. It’s the name the subject has chosen to be known by. Keivan.f  Talk 13:06, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Wait Until next year, when the alleged official ceremony will take place, I personally see no reason to jump the gun. There’s still a split and I think it should wait until Johnson becomes the common name. Trillfendi (talk) 16:53, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * , what "official ceremony"? Elizium23 (talk) 16:57, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * According to reports they plan to have a proper wedding in July 2022, which was confirmed by the minister's spokesperson. Trillfendi (talk) 17:43, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't know what you're on about, "proper wedding", the recent ceremony was a legally valid wedding. Maybe they plan to have a big party in 2022. Support. PatGallacher (talk) 18:04, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I said exactly what I meant. They have apparently sent wedding invitation cards to family and friends telling them to save the date for next summer, regardless of the validity of this cerenomy. Trillfendi (talk) 18:52, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * , no Catholic priest would allow them to simulate a wedding now that they have had a valid ceremony. Perhaps they plan to have a nice reception, as PatGallacher suggests. This has no bearing on Symonds' surname. Do you have a source for us to examine or not? Elizium23 (talk) 00:14, 5 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Support move to "Carrie Johnson" with or without disambiguation. Carrie uses "Johnson" as do numerous RS. Tammbeck  talk  19:12, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Birth Name
She was born Caroline not Carrie and this should be reflected in the article. Her companies House entry is under Caroline Johnson and is the name on her marriage certificate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnjoseph (talk • contribs) 21:21, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * She is regularly referred to as "Caroline" in early reports of the attack by John Worboys . Jonathan A Jones (talk) 21:31, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Only being reported in the Daily Mail and the Sun  so far, but from her marriage certificate her full name was "Caroline Louise Bevan Symonds". Jonathan A Jones (talk) 07:25, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * We cannot cite the marriage certificate WP:BLPPRIMARY, or the Daily Mail or the Sun WP:RSP. Elizium23 (talk) 07:30, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * There's a reason why I phrased things as I did. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 08:20, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Name is Caroline Symonds according to entry on companies house  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.199.38.223 (talk) 08:50, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Disclaimer on that page reads: Companies House does not verify the accuracy of the information filed Elizium23 (talk) 17:50, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

I have added her birth name into the Infobox together with the GRO Reference confirming the name. 2A00:23C4:CE11:7101:11ED:73E4:C185:FE10 (talk) 17:50, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 June 2021
The status of "Current" for Johnson's role is superfluous and is non-standard for infoboxes of a head of government's spouse (e.g., Jill Biden, Melania Trump and all prior First Ladies of the United States). Additionally, the role, while accepted, is informal and should not merit a status description. It should be removed. 76.71.157.66 (talk) 04:26, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Jill Biden's infobox does have "Current". PatGallacher (talk) 13:08, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Per . Seems to be the standard to me. Curbon7 (talk) 09:24, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Tone of Article
There is an insidious undertone in this article. The picture is not a neutral representation of the person, rather it depicts them as if their about to chow down on a steak or their seeing something desirable. Additionally, when it mentions the wedding outfit, it is unusually specific, and although it leaves it to the reader to determine what kind of dress it is, it has negative implications as well. Unless someone disagrees with me I'm going to remove these insidious undertones from the article so it is more neutral.

So we're all clear here, I am an American, and I had not even heard of this person until a couple of days ago when I initially read this article. I feel my observations are fairly unbiased an impartial - but an acute observer can easily see what is going on with this article. It needs to be changed to meet Wikipedia's standards. Whoever has been making these additions to this article, skillfully wrote this article to undermine this person in the eyes of people who were reviewing this article. Especially in the eyes of particular audiences. It must be changed to be more neutral.

Please let me know if you disagree.

There probably needs to be at some information about her activities as the wife/girl-friend of the prime minister. I understand it does seem there is some controversy there also. I'm not even aware though what kind of activities the spouse of the prime-minister traditionally engages in. So I'd appreciate someone's help from the U.K and or someone who knows something about the U.K.

I'm going to wait a week or two for someone to raise a protest, and then I'm going to make changes to reflect a more impartial tone, which Wikipedia needs generally. Wikipedia is not a place to sharpen your personal grievances.

SmithSteve1123 (talk) 17:07, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Description as "Conservationist"
The short description for this article describes Carrie Johnson as “Conservationist and wife of British prime minister Boris Johnson”. The introduction says “she described herself as a political and climate activist”, without a reference to justify the description. The article includes references to environmental activity as follows:

-	She had an internship with animal conservation charity IFAW which "first got me hooked on all things animal welfare and wanting to do my bit"

-	In 2019 she was the partner of the UK prime minister and a senior adviser in marketing for the US environmental campaign group Oceana”, and claimed to be "passionate about protecting the oceans and marine life", and admitted she was a newcomer to bird-watching

-	In 2021, after she and Boris Johnson had married, she became head of communications for the Aspinall Foundation

-	Elle says “Her Twitter profile is full of pledges, rally cries and retweets all aiming to protect our oceans and the environment. She has also publicly supported sustainability, spoken out against 'trophy hunting' and in favour of protecting sea-life.”

Do these references support the claim that she is a conservationist as described by Wikipedia, rather than a media professional who also has a strong interest in the environment and animal welfare? I am inclined to remove “conservationist” from the short description, and to mark the introduction quote as unreferenced.Masato.harada (talk) 11:44, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Since there were no objections, I have amended the short description and infobox occupation from "Conservationist" to "Media advisor", and flagged the need for citation in introduction.Masato.harada (talk) 14:06, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Mother’s surnames- McAfee or Mcaffee ?
Carrie Johnson’s mother’s surname is given as McAfee in the text of the early life section and Mcaffee in the side box. I do not know which of these is right so it needs someone to check and correct. MaryPercival (talk) 19:55, 19 June 2023 (UTC)