Talk:Cartography of Palestine

Other key 19th century maps to choose from

 * William F. Lynch's map of the Jordan Valley (1849)
 * Found at File:Map of the River Jordan and Dead Sea by W. F. Lynch.png. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:06, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:55, 25 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Richard Kiepert's map (1856), showing places visited by E. Robinson and others (north and south sheets)
 * ✅. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:07, 17 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Charles William Meredith van de Velde's maps (1858–1862), based on his own surveys and those of others (including the 1841 royal engineers). Probably the most detailed and accurate before PEF.
 * , I uploaded a much better resolution copy of the 1858 map. I also have an edition on 8 separate sheets. I can send you maps if you ask by email. Zerotalk 00:02, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:07, 17 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Mieulet and Derren's map "Levés en Galilé" (1870). This is a remarkable measured map of the western Galilee, as accurate as the PEF but also featuring contours.
 * See File:MieuletDerrienMap-Gallica.jpg. I emailed you an article about it. Zerotalk 01:07, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Authors: Mieulet, Jean-Joseph (1830-1897) and Derrien, Isidore (1839-1904). Published by Dépôt de la guerre (Paris).
 * ✅. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:55, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

I have all of these. I didn't check Commons. Zerotalk 13:30, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Gottlieb Schumacher's maps, various dates

This 1841 map is historically important, but I cannot find it on the www anywhere. Can you? Zerotalk 04:44, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Good question. It's not in here like the other maps by those surveyors. Nor does it appear to be in the Laor collection. Hmm. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:25, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Tobler had this to say about it: "Die karte wurde in England für das auswärtige departement gestochen, kam aber nicht in den buchhandel und doch in die Hände der geographen. S. van de Velde's Mem. 5." which i read as saying it was never published. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:34, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Goren: "Nineteen sheets of the original maps are to be found in the British Archives (PRO) in London. They do not include the finished three-sheet map, as well as other products of the survey, such as Robe's sketch of the sources of the Jordan, which were published by Ritter and by Robinson in their periodicals. Various maps of Acre, as well as those of Jaffa and Gaza, were published in 1843 by Alderson in his detailed 'Notes on Acre and Some Coast Defences of Syria', a highly illuminating and important, yet neglected, source. One of the sketches shows Symond's triangulations, which have been discussed, as the first hypsometric measurement of the Jordan Valley and the Dead Sea, reaching a relatively accurate result for the latter, but a very erroneous measurement for the Sea of Galilee. In addition, it was not surprising to find this original sketch in the collections of August Petermann in Perthes' Geographical Institute and publishing house in Gotha, as well."
 * van de Velds: "The learned Professor Ritter has expressed his regret, that this survey was never laid before the public. His desire, that it soon might be done, has partly been fulfilled. Major R. Rochfort Scott, Royal Staff-Corps, has constructed from the partial surveys of different Engineer-Officers a map in three sheets under the following title: "Map of Syria, constructed from the surveys and sketches of the undermentioned officers in that country in 1840 1841, by Major R. Rochfort Scott, R. Staff-Corps, under whose general direction the work was undertaken, Majors F. H. Robe, 87th Fusileers and R. Wilbraham, 7th Fusileers, and Lieut. J. F. A. Symonda R. Engineers". This Map has been engraved for the Foreign Department by the care of Mr. Arrowsmith. It is not in the trade, but has nevertheless found its way to the Students of the Geography of Palestine; and one of the three sheets, the middle one, has been copied and inserted in Colonel Churchill's "Mount Lebanon, a ten years' residence from 1842 — 52, describing the manners, customs, &c.; historical records of the mountain tribes, from personal intercourse with their chiefs &c. 3 vols R. 8*". London 1853". The map was kindly communicated to me when in a yet unfinished state in 1852 by order of the Right Honourable the Earl of Malmesbury, then Secretary of State for the Department of Foreign affairs, and afterwards when it was completed, by order of his successor the Right Honourable the Earl of Clarendon"
 * Onceinawhile (talk) 23:51, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

I have found it (a low res version). It is on p.31 of the paper you sent to me about 10 days ago:. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:56, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I have uploaded it (see right). This is from a poor quality scan of Jones's paper. Any chance you have access to a better quality pdf of her paper? Onceinawhile (talk) 00:03, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * My library has this volume of the journal on paper. I should be able to access it next week. Zerotalk 00:15, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * For the record, I visited this journal in January but I wasn't able to get a scan better than this image. Zerotalk 14:25, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Jacotin's map
, the map of Jacotin was surveyed in 1799, but (according to Y. Karmon, ) not drawn until 1818. So what is the correct date by which to present it? Zerotalk 00:18, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi I have been going by Nebenzahl's methodology - using the date that the map was first created - i.e. what point in time does its image represent - rather than when it was published. The early maps are the best example here (the extant copies are often hundreds of years after the original drawing, but we use the original date). Onceinawhile (talk) 01:38, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * in that case it should be 1799, not 1800. I have multiple sources for that; the one above, this article of Kallner (which appears as Kellner in the TOC), the book "Survey of Palestine" by Gavish (p7), etc. Zerotalk 04:21, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I have changed it. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:47, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Title
Why not move this to plain Cartography of Palestine?

, you may be interested in John R. Bartlett, Mapping Jordan Through Two Millennia (Routledge, 2008), if you aren't already familiar with it. I don't have it, but it is available for preview on Google. –Srnec (talk) 04:34, 2 January 2020 (UTC)


 * The intention is to follow the definition we have at Palestine (region), with Demographic history of Palestine (region) following it. Now I look at it, I think they might be the only articles like that – we have Travelogues of Palestine and History of Palestine for the region without the brackets (see Template:Palestine (historic region) topics). I am open minded. Happy to move if you or others feel strongly. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:58, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I think "Cartography of Palestine" would be better but I don't feel strongly about it. Zerotalk 08:18, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * on this basis I am happy for it to be moved. Onceinawhile (talk) 00:39, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

PEF Survey of Western Palestine
The only full map I can see is this composite from David Rumsey, which appears to be a stitch of the 26 plates. Is anyone aware of an “official” full size map of the Survey of Western Palestine? Onceinawhile (talk) 02:00, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * See here on Commons. Zerotalk 02:43, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks - I have added six more maps to the category, all showing the full composite. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:13, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Reddit
An interesting thread on Reddit relevant to the topic of this article. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:29, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Zionist propoganda and delegitimizing Palestinian peoples
This article gives me a sense that it attempts to refer to Palestine as mainly a geographical term, disregarding the core indigenous population of the Palestinians that have been continuously living on the land since time immemorial. Many Greek and Roman historians describe a distinct peoples living in Palestine that identified as Palestinians since at least 6th century BCE. 64.231.187.83 (talk) 20:56, 29 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The article gives the sense that it is trying to erase Jewish history and is inaccurate. It should be edited. Raconcilio (talk) 13:16, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Jordan was part of Palestine
There is hardly any mention that Jordan was referred to as Eastern Palestine. Dl.thinker (talk) 04:44, 4 June 2023 (UTC)


 * You mean a small sliver of today’s northwestern Jordan. The vast majority of today’s Jordan was never considered part of Palestine. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:01, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Update your information! Many areas, such as Al-Karak, Ajloun, and Al-Balqa, were until recently affiliated with Palestinian districts. Dl.thinker (talk) 14:45, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * …all the places you mention are in the same small sliver of today’s northwestern Jordan. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:55, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * You are wrong, even Amman was considered among these areas.--Dl.thinker (talk) 13:32, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Historic Amman is in that same small sliver of today’s northwestern Jordan, ~20 miles from the Jordan River.
 * Like almost all historic regional names, the exact definition ebbed and flowed over time. Onceinawhile (talk) 11:19, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Dl.thinkerand @Onceinawhile - Jordan was a HUGE part of what was most recently the region of Palestine. The article is very misleading. Raconcilio (talk) 13:16, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Capital letters are not evidence. The sources in this article speak for themselves. I suggest you read them. Onceinawhile (talk) 00:46, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The article is grossly misleading and you know it.
 * Where are the sources that it's mapping the Holy Land and Israel? There are none. It should be deleted.
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Transjordan @Onceinawhile is the one who uploaded it to the Wikipedia article with the name File:PalestineAndTransjordan.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Emirate_of_Transjordan.png
 * https://www.loc.gov/item/2019701185/ Raconcilio (talk) 09:11, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Should not include 'Holy Land' and 'Land of Israel' as an equivalence
The article does not give reference to 'also known as cartography of the Holy Land and cartography of the Land of Israel' and should not be included in the article. It is misleading and historically and politically inaccurate. Raconcilio (talk) 13:17, 23 November 2023 (UTC)


 * To further make the case, it's clear to see that the way Israel is defined is different than how Palestine is defined. It's also easy to understand that how the 'Holy Land' is mapped has more to do with Bible and events related to religion and not the area of Palestine.
 * There is also no reference for the statement made.
 * Misinformation causes killing of one another and making these pieces of information more clear will help to decrease tensions
 * HLHJ @BlueMoonset Onceinawhile will you please help to make a consensus? Raconcilio (talk) 14:19, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Tensions for a 75 year long conflict are not going to be decreased because of one change to a relatively minor Wikipedia article- nor is that something for Wikipedia to do. If you want to help decrease tensions, visit the conflict area(if you aren't there already) and offer your services as a negotiator. 331dot (talk) 23:54, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It worries me that you're a Wikipedia editor and calling it a 75 year old conflict.
 * The Present Day West Bank was occupied by Jordan until 1967.
 * If we were able to have non-biased editing, there would be more accurate maps showing the outline and location of Jewish population under British Mandate of Palestine - Eretz Yisrael -- which became the Partition Agreement, indicating the land was split in similar ways to the land in Jordan, Syria, etc.
 * The Article also does not include any maps with the TransJordan and so the editors are clearly biased.
 * The page is in dire need of a review. Raconcilio (talk) 00:37, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * In general, we need to start somewhere and misinforation is part of it. There are people who search for answers and trust Wikipedia. This needs to be fixed ASAP. Misinformation leads to antisemitism and also misguides Palestinians who are wanting to know what is the right thing to do.
 * Les embolden people to cause harm. The truth builds bridges. This is a critical moment to do the right thing. Raconcilio (talk) 00:39, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Please stop saying words that don’t mean anything.
 * This is an impeccably-sourced article, with all of the most important maps of the region from prior to the 20th century. It has been written to follow the academic works in the Bibliography.
 * Please carefully review the books in the Bibliography section of this article before responding. If you don’t have access, go read them in a library.
 * Until then, you are wasting your time throwing around empty claims based on some random snippets of pseudo-information wafting around in your mind. That is not how Wikipedia is built.
 * Onceinawhile (talk) 00:45, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The article ignores several key pieces of mapping the area of Palestine. How it is defined, who is mapping it, how it is mapped and there is no source for the mapping of the Holy Land nor Israel. This goes against Wikipedia's rules of civility and verifiability. I am going to escalate to an administrator. Raconcilio (talk) 09:18, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * What has been called Palestine has changed OFTEN as there have not been defined borders politically. The article does not discuss this point. Raconcilio (talk) 09:20, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * You are repeating yourself. Until you read the sources this is not a good use of your time. Onceinawhile (talk) 11:31, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * My point is there is no source for ' also known as cartography of the Holy Land and cartography of the Land of Israel'.
 * None of the maps say it's both unless they are next to one another in which case they are not the same map and should not use 'also known as'.
 * This should be deleted.
 * I am repeating but also your ignorance will hopefully allow me to get some admin support to have different editors watching the page. Raconcilio (talk) 12:08, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I have added a source for that statement. The renowned Israeli geographer Rehav Rubin uses the three terms interchangeably in his 2018 monograph. Onceinawhile (talk) 13:23, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * As far as historical maps go, "Palestine", "Holy Land" and "Land of Israel" are essentially the same place. The use of the three names in the first sentence helps people to find this page. Also, you don't understand the role of admins. (I should know since I am one.) It's a good time for you to stop, as you are quite wrong and you won't convince anyone. Zerotalk 13:00, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * They are not essentially the same place which is what the problem is. Maps are drawn for different reasons. To draw countries, to show a region, to try to depict where Biblical places 'may' be.
 * The article is 'Cartography of Palestine' which is definitely not the same as cartography of Israel.
 * 'Essentially the same place' is not good enough. There needs to be a source. Raconcilio (talk) 18:00, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The Biblical "Kingdom of Israel" is thought to have ended in 720 BCE. The State of Israel began in 1948. In the intervening period, during which time the area was not formally known as the Land of Israel or similar, many maps were made describing area.
 * This article is about pre-modern maps of the area. All were made between 150 CE and the late 19th century – again, during this time the area was not formally known as the Land of Israel or similar. As the article Timeline of the name Palestine will show you, during this period the land was primarily known as Palestine.
 * Onceinawhile (talk) 21:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This does not imply they are the same. It in fact implies they are different. One is mapping the Kingdom of Israel, or present day country that is recognized as Israel (as opposed to modern mapping of Palestinian territories).
 * The article is not explicit about the time period and mapping of one territory after the other ends does not make them the same or give it the right to use 'aka'. It means that the mapping of one ended and another began.
 * Mapping of biblical areas typically relies on Biblical texts and artifacts.
 * They are not 'the same as' the others and this should in no way be implied nor stated. Raconcilio (talk) 21:22, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * If we had articles called "Cartography of the Holy Land" or "Cartography of Eretz Yisrael", they would display the same maps. You need to read WP:STICK. Zerotalk 08:25, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This is a great idea. I will create a cartography of Israel map. It won't look the same.
 * This article is inaccurate because it does not include all of the other configurations that it's looked like and other regions that were not included. I will surely be asking Admins to look at not only how you talk to other people trying to bring up policies about adding things without sources and calling very relevant topics dead horses, which lacks civility in a time when people literally are trying to wipe Israel off the map. Raconcilio (talk) 09:46, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't understand most of this comment. But if you would like to contribute by starting a new article, a new article called Cartography of Biblical Israel would be a valuable addition to the project. This article is primarily about maps made depicting the land as it was when the maps were made. But there is an important parallel tradition of maps being made to illustrate the Biblical stories.
 * Onceinawhile (talk) 10:14, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Region should be given the reason for the name which came from Greeks describing Israelites
This is stated in another Wikipedia article and others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_name_Palestine#CITEREFNoth1939 https://www.scribd.com/document/484233772/Palestine-My-Love Raconcilio (talk) 13:21, 23 November 2023 (UTC)