Talk:Cartography of Ukraine

Motiel map
Where does this map originally come from? Aside from Shelukhin 1921, see s:uk:Сторінка:Шелухін С. Назва України. З картами. 1921.djvu/21, I cannot find anyone else mentioning or publishing this map and supporting this story as narrated by Shelukhin over 100 years ago: Карта басейну Чорного моря, з якою французський купець Мотіель їздив з 1580 до 1582 років в Туречину. Зроблена раніш 1580 року; автор невідомий. Зберігається з паперами Мотіеля в Парижі в Французській Національній Бібліотеці. Дніпро пишеться на ній по латині »Boristenes«, а Україна по обидва боки Дніпра має також латинську надпис: »Uckrania«.

Here translated as: Map of the Black Sea basin, which the French merchant Motiel traveled with from 1580 through Ukraine to Turkey and returned to France in 1582. Created by an unknown author before 1580, it is preserved in the papers of the French merchant Motiel in the National Library of France in Paris. The territory on both sides of the Dnieper has the inscription "Uckrania" (Ukraine) on it. The map shows the cities of Ovruch, Zhytomyr, Kyiv, Kamianets-Podilskyi, Poltava, Chyhyryn and others. One of the earliest maps with the name "Ukraine" mentioned.

I have questions. Who is this "French merchant Motiel' Мотіель"? Which "Motiel' papers" in the National Library of France (BnF)? It's all very vague and unspecific, and Motiel' is very unusual for a French surname (perhaps something went wrong in transliteration?). Although the map may be authentic, I have doubts about its provenance and dating. I cannot claim to be an expert cartographer, but that map may well be younger than claimed, stemming from the 17th or 18th century by the looks of it. It is ostensibly in Latin, which makes it a bit unlikely to stem from France, where French was already commonly accepted as a language to write maps in, whereas much of Europe retained Latin until about 1800. This particular map has some "Italian" looks, although I can't say why exactly. It's quite unlike maps of the 16th century produced in the Low Countries and Germany, such as Gerardus Mercator, Willem Blaeu & Joan Blaeu (Radziwiłł map), Frans Hogenberg & Georg Braun, as well as Guillaume Le Vasseur de Beauplan's maps of Vkranie. But I do see quite some stylish similarities with, say, this c. 1753 map File:AMH-7993-KB Map of Ceram, Ambon and the Banda islands.jpg, or the third map Shelukhin shows s:Сторінка:Шелухін С. Назва України. З картами. 1921.djvu/25, made by an Italian in 1678 (1641). On the other hand, Kyiv is spelt Kiow, which points to Polish influence (Kijów; the w and particularly the o is telling, as this never features in Ukrainian or Russian spellings); numerous German and Dutch maps of the era have similar Polish-derived exonyms such as Kioff and Kiovia. But the third map of 1678 spelt it Kiouia in Italian, so even that is Polish-derived and thus the Motiel map could still be Italian as well.

The fact that it is a black-white map without any artistic embellishments, focussed on the physical geography of rivers, seas and mountains, suggests this was indeed a practical travel map.

The fact that the compass is split in two and we only read several names like "MARE [NIGRUM]" cut off indicate that this map was cropped, suggesting that Shelukhin copied only about 60% of the entire map he had in front of him, primarily interested in showing the letters "UCKRANIA" in the top left corner on a map with sufficient geographical landmarks for the reader to recognise, e.g. the Dnipro, Crimea, the Black Sea, Asia Minor and the Aegean Sea. The fold in the middle through the "R" of "MARE", unless a fold in the book itself (which might be more likely), could also indicate this.

On the whole, I should say that I am not terribly impressed by Shelukhin 1921's publication, which had a clear (and understandable) political goal. uk:Шелухін Сергій Павлович was in fact the former Justice Minister of the revolutionary Ukrainian People's Republic for a few months in 1918 during the Ukrainian War of Independence, after which he spent some time in exile in Vienna in 1921, when he published this 30-page booklet, which is little more than a pamphlet. ''Назва України. З картами'' is about why Ukraine is called "Ukraine", why that name is older than "Russia" and "Rus' ", why Ukraine has "always existed as a nation" and Moscow hasn't, and "Moscow" isn't even a Slavic word, and that this pre-1580 map "proves" Ukraine existed centuries before Moscow/Muscovy did etc., thus making several claims that no modern Ukrainian scholar would defend (with Serhii Plokhy asserting that the 1603/1613 Radziwiłł map is the oldest-known map featuring the word "Ukraine" on it), but that are understandable in Shelukhin's context. In other words, he is quite angry - understandably - at how the war went for Ukraine, which was incorporated as the Ukrainian SSR into the Russian-dominated Soviet Union in 1922 (1 year after Shelukhin published this booklet), and he is keen to write down how Ukraine is different and separate from Russia, using a couple of maps to make his argument. It is no surprise, then, that this map in particular has resurfaced and regained popularity in Ukraine since 2014, when the country is once again invaded by Russia (albeit a different Russia). It shouldn't surprise us either that the last edit on the Wikisource page was made on 24 February 2022.

So, is it historically reliable? I don't know. All I know is that I do not really trust Shelukhin 1921's interpretation of the map, even though the map itself might be authentic, but we don't know when and where and by whom it was made. If anyone knows more about its provenance, please respond below. NLeeuw (talk) 03:22, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * PS: There is an "X" marking some spot west of "Poltava". My guess is that it marks the Battle of Poltava of 1709. If so, the Motiel map can't be older than 1709. But I'm not sure. It's strange for a practical travel map to be recording military events (which many other early modern maps of Ukraine do). NLeeuw (talk) 09:09, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Is it perhaps Pieter Mortier or someone from his family, originally from France, migrating to the Dutch Republic in the late 17th century? Name of 3 generations of Amsterdam-based map makers in the Dutch Republic. E.g. File:Ukrainae pars quae Barclavie palatinatus vulgo dicitur - per Guilhelmum le Vasseur de Beauplan - btv1b53041011n.jpg is a reprint of a Beauplan map co-published by Pieter Mortier I's son Cornelis Mortier (C. Mortier in the top right corner), of the uk:Covens & Mortier cartography company. They produced thousands of Latin maps of the world including Ukraine in the 18th century. Assuming Shelukhin erroneously transcribed Mortier as, that could explain a lot. But we'd still have to find the original fullsize map to be sure, and I do not see strong similarities in style yet. NLeeuw (talk) 09:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Aubry de La Motraye, Black Sea (FL36554634 2525109).jpg]]
 * At uk:Обговорення:Список історичних мап України, someone pointed out on 12 November 2022 that a National Library of France copy of the original map is to be found here at gallica.bnf.fr . Our mysterious cartographer Мотіель (Motiel') is in fact fr:Aubry de La Mottraye (born c. 1674; died 1743 in Paris), who published this map somewhere around 1720. There is another copy of it in his 1723 English-language book A.de La Motraye's travels through Europe, Asia, and into part of Africa;... : containing a great variety of geographical, topographical, and political observations on those parts of the world; especially on Italy,Turky... Sweden and Lapland... with an historical account of the most considerable events ... during : the space of above 25 years; such as ... the late king of Sweden's reception and entertainment at Bender...in fine, all the chief transactions of the senate and states of Sweden,etc, paper pages 447–448 (digital pages 460–461); this copy has the stamp of the Boston Public Library on it. File:Aubry de La Motraye, Black Sea (FL36554634 2525109).jpg, shown on the right here, is yet another HQ copy of the same map found in the National Library of Israel that is already on Commons. It's possible that the French and Israeli national libraries' copies were published separate from the English-language book version (perhaps as part of its French or Latin translations some years later, or separately altogether, earlier or later), but for practical purposes, we can assume 1723 London to be its first publication, particularly as all three copies contain a dedication to Robert Sutton and thus are likely intended for a British audience.
 * Many of my observations above appear to be correct: the map is authentic, it is "French"/"English" (not Italian as I suspected), but otherwise, Shelukhin's provenance is completely wrong. It is an 18th-century map, and the "X" left of Pultava are two crossed swords indicating a battle. Indeed, his frwiki bio states: Around 1711, La Mottraye became friends with Otto Wilhelm Klinckowström (1683–1731), secretary to King Charles XII of Sweden, and followed him to Bender, where the sovereign and a battalion found refuge for five years after their bitter defeat by the Russians at the Battle of Poltava (1709). So while probably not a direct witness of the battle, he spent 5 years talking to Swedish soldiers who fought at Poltava. The dedication on the lower mid-right to Roberto Sutton, Ex. Aur. Regi. Mag. Brita. Consiliis &c. could refer to either Robert Sutton, 2nd Baron Lexinton or Robert Sutton (diplomat), both of whom had been members of the Privy Council, probably the Consiliis mentioned, in 1692–1714 and from 1722 on, respectively. The latter is more likely, given the 1723 publication of this book, and the fact that Robert Sutton (diplomat) was British Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire 1700–1717 (during the time that La Mottraye stayed with Charles XII's defeated army in Ottoman-controlled Bender, Moldova on the river Dniester (Niester on the map), where Charles XII was captured by the Ottomans after the Skirmish at Bender in 1713, also marked by crossed swords just below "Bender"), and British Ambassador to France 1720–1721 (La Mottraye returned to England in 1720, and published his book plus map there in 1723). It's easy to see how Robert Sutton (diplomat) could have facilitated La Mottraye's career switch from being in the service of the Swedish king to that of the British king (the book as a whole is dedicated to George I of Great Britain).
 * It's probably no coincidence either that the map is most detailed concerning the western Black Sea coastal towns (today in Romania, Bulgaria, and European Turkey) between Bender on the Niester, where our cartographer spent 5 years, and Constantinopolis, where the Ottoman sultan and foreign embassies – including Robert Sutton (diplomat) – resided; perhaps he was free to travel between both places? The details are very sparse on the area he calls UCKRANIA, with no towns other than Pultava on the left bank, and just a few towns including Kiow on the right bank. The geography and geology are also very malformed in that part of the map, indicating he had no accurate knowledge of the region, and little to no access to it. Unlike Shelukhin's claim, we've got every reason to believe La Mottraye created this map himself, mainly working on it from 1709 to 1713 in Bender, Moldova, perhaps making some further changes until publication in 1723. This is definitely not the oldest map with "Ukraine" on it, and for knowledge of Ukraine it is quite poor. I'll correct the map's details and warn people not to take whatever Shelukhin 1923 wrote at face value. NLeeuw (talk) 11:23, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

List of copies:
 * File:A. de La Motraye. Mare Nigrum (17 century).jpg, National Library of France, dated 1700-1720, uploaded in 2011. Numerous excerpts on Commons with "(17 century)" [sic] in title.
 * File:Mare Nigrum - A. de La Motraye - btv1b5964208j.jpg, duplicate of above, uploaded in 2022.
 * File:Aubry de La Motraye, Black Sea (FL36554634 2525109).jpg, National Library of Israel, dated c. 1720
 * 1) Archive.org adelamotrayest00lamo/page/n460, Boston Public Library, copy of a 1723 London edition in English
 * File:Map of the Black Sea At the right bottom corner, shepherd feeding his camels - La Mottraye Aubry De - 1727.jpg, The Hellenic Library of the Onassis Foundation Athens, copy of a 1727 The Hague edition in French
 * File:Мапа басейну Чорного моря (Aubry de La Mottraye 1723, excerpt Shelukhin 1923).jpg, Ukrainian Wikisource, University of Toronto Library, 1921 Vienna Shelukhin excerpt, with misattribution in Ukrainian; perhaps a cropping of the National Library of France copy?
 * NLeeuw (talk) 14:05, 17 July 2024 (UTC)