Talk:Carwyn Jones

Open Cast mining
Do you think we should discuss the open cast ruling against him for an open cast mine in merthyr tydfil & his opposition against an open cast mine in his constituency? user:sci-fry2001

Minister No More
On the same day that it was announced that Carwyn was to be Counsel General, Leader of the House and Minister for Assembly Business and Communications, it was realised that it was contrary to the Government of Wales Act 2006 that a Counsel General should hold the office of Minister, and so this ministerial post was dropped and put down to being a "mistake"!

Intro
Jones is now First Minister for Wales, which is now the most important thing in his biography. As such it needs to be discussed in the introductory sentence, per LEDE.--Cúchullain t/ c 01:19, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree. Also, editors should note that the Welsh Labour Party is not registered with the electoral commission (see here). Therefore, while politicians can be members of the WLP, they represent the The Labour Party for electoral purposes. Daicaregos (talk) 09:00, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed. It would probably also be good to link to the National Assembly for Wales in the intro.--Cúchullain t/ c 13:15, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I do think some link to the regional Welsh Labour is necessary, as Jones is (so far) involved in the regional, rather than central government.--Cúchullain t/ c 13:30, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

I really don't understand the opposition to the intro changes. This is clearly the most important thing Jones has done so far, and it needs to be in the introductory sentence. I gave links to Obama and Brown above, but articles on regional government leaders begin this way as well, for example Alex Salmon, Charlie Crist, and David Onley.--Cúchullain t/ c 15:13, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to agree here, the lead is supposed to summarise the whole of the article and as this is clearly a significant part of the biography it needs to be mentioned there. Keith D (talk) 13:25, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

"is the third First Minister for Wales" corrected to "second". His predecessor Rhodri Morgan was the first person to bear that title. 92.21.239.38 (talk) 15:29, 24 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this just a title change? According to the article, Alun Michael was the first person to hold this office, though it wasn't called that at the time.--Cúchullain t/ c 15:32, 24 February 2010 (UTC)


 * You're not wrong, but it is nevertheless factually incorrect to claim that the second person to hold the title of First Minister is the third person to do so! If we aren't going to be precise then what on earth is the point? Also, following the Government of Wales Act 2006 and the subsequent creation of the Welsh Assembly Government, the difference between the former role of the First Secretary and that of the First Minister is significant.Sanddef (talk) 17:36, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Welsh Labour
The policies between Welsh Labour and Labour in the UK are greatly different, and Welsh Labour, in Wales does run as Welsh Labour and is refered to as Welsh Labour, they also have a website. The electoral commission point is neither here or there. --Welshsocialist (talk) 19:05, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see why; "Welsh Labour" is just the branch of the Labour Party operating in Wales. Since he's registered as Labour we need to link it, though Welsh Labour is also linked in the intro. Other parties, like Plaid, do appear in the registry. The Ontario Liberal Party, the Republican Party of Florida, etc., have their own identies (and websites) and may have different political platforms than the central party, but they're not outright independent parties.--Cúchullain t/ c 20:32, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Insofar as elections are concerned, Carwyn Jones represents the Labour Party, which is a UK-wide party. No-one can vote for a representative of Welsh Labour unless and until it is registered with the Elecoral Commission. If Welsh Labour has separate policies then those should be dealt with in the aticle text, if notable, along with mention of his membership of Welsh Labour (although whether anyone can be a member of Welsh Labour is debatable. Does it have a constitution for example? Labour constituency members in Wales are members of the Labour Party. When applying to attend the Welsh Labour conference the application form asks only for Labour Party membership details. etc., etc.). Daicaregos (talk) 10:06, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Here are some articles I could find quickly to support Welsh Labour in the article. It also mentions the status of Welsh Labour in the Welsh Labour article. I don't see what the problem is or how it is misleading. The party is widely known as Welsh Labour, both in Wales, within the Labour party and also on the ballot papers.      --Welshsocialist (talk) 12:29, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * As noted above, while politicians can be members of Welsh Labour, they represent the The Labour Party for electoral purposes. This should be reflected in the article. As far as the article here goes, aside from the fact that Welsh Labour cannot have an "election" manifesto, because they are not a registered party, you will note that they implore you to "Vote Labour - and then Vote Labour again" (last but one paragraph page 2), not "Vote Welsh Labour - and then Vote Welsh Labour again" - because you can't. The link to The Electoral Commission shows no note of "Welsh Labour". Indeed their link to party finances shows the Labour Blaenau Gwent link to be to The Labour Party, and the official address of each of the 'accounting units' of The Labour Party in Wales (i.e. Aberavon Clp, Aberconwy Clp etc., etc.,) is given as "Labour Party, Compliance Unit, 39 Victoria Street, London, SW1H OHA". Please provide evidence for your claim that "The party is widely known as Welsh Labour ... on the ballot papers." I have not said anywhere that I believe using Welsh Labour is misleading, or that I think it is. But the fact is that it is not accurate when used in the context of representative government or elections to representative government. This is an encyclopaedia and the information given must be accurate. I reiterate the post made above, as the points contained in it have been completely ignored. Please address them: Insofar as elections are concerned, Carwyn Jones represents the Labour Party, which is a UK-wide party. No-one can vote for a representative of Welsh Labour unless and until it is registered with the Elecoral Commission. If Welsh Labour has separate policies then those should be dealt with in the aticle text, if notable, along with mention of his membership of Welsh Labour (although whether anyone can be a member of Welsh Labour is debatable. Does it have a constitution for example? Labour constituency members in Wales are members of the Labour Party. When applying to attend the Welsh Labour conference the application form asks only for Labour Party membership details. etc., etc.). Daicaregos (talk) 16:00, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The waters are muddied because while Labour in Wales is part of one British Labour Party, it's pursued a different policy agenda to Labour at Westminister. There is a Wales-level structure within the Labour Party, which has existed since 1947 and has been branded as Welsh Labour since 2000. This entity has an executive committee and holds an annual conference. A paper by Andrew Lincoln discusses some of the institutional subtleties.--Pondle (talk) 17:55, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) Sorry Pondle, but thanks for that. The issue of how to deal with UK political parties in Wales and Scotland in intros and infoboxes has been raised centrally at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom. Your participation in the discussion would be welcome. Daicaregos (talk) 18:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Right, would agreeable to out Welsh Labour in brackets after the Labour it as in A member of the Welsh Labour Party (Welsh Labour). It is impossible to mention the Welsh Labour party having seperate policies in the article, and I hope that we both can see it as accurate. I am also sorry that I mis-undered to "3R" rule, I was mis-informed about it by someone.--Welshsocialist (talk) 00:28, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Daicaregos, is it not possible to have some kind of compromise between the article text and the infobox text. Maybe you have a point, or maybe not about the electoral commission thing, however it is also important, for all Welsh Labour AMs to have something linking them to the Welsh Labour page, because of the different policies between Welsh Labour, and the UK Labour Party, and the recongised differences by most netural people. We should not let political idealogy get in the way of sticking to facts. What I propose is that we have Welsh Labour in the info box, and UK Labour in the general text of the body. That way, both points of view, which are both legitimate, get dealt with.--Welshsocialist (talk) 02:09, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * "We should not let political idealogy get in the way of sticking to facts." If you are suggesting that that is what I am doing, then I regard that as a personal attack. Please strike that sentence. Carwyn Jones is a member of the Labour Party. He stood in his constituency representing the Labour Party. He was elected as the Labour Party Assembly Member for Bridgend. And he will be standing again in Bridgend next month for election to the National Assembly as the Labour Party candidate. That he also Leader of the Welsh Labour group is notable and should be in the Lead – and it is: it says "He was elected Leader of Welsh Labour on 1 December 2009." Further, it is noted in the infobox that he is "Leader of Welsh Labour in the National Assembly for Wales". Both link to the Welsh Labour page. I am more than a little surprised you hadn't noticed. If you want to expand the article to explain what Welsh Labour is, please do. But, unless and until Carwyn Jones stands as a Welsh Labour representitive, his political party should be noted as Labour. Daicaregos (talk) 08:28, 7 April 2011 (UTC)


 * First point, was not a personal slur, rather a badly written attempt to explain that this is not political. Sorry that it came across wrong. Secondly, an article of a politican is not the place to explain what Welsh Labour is, that is already dealt with in the Welsh Labour itself. The realities of devolution is that the parties have different approaches to things, that has to be explained somewhere in the text of Welsh Labour politicans, I have suggested two ways to resovle this, eaither by including Welsh Labour in brackets, or by the seperate links in the infobox and the general text. If the latter is not acceptable, why not the former. That both explains that, while they might be elected as Labour cannidates, that the Welsh Labour party has seperate policy directions, and has a seperate identity from UK Labour. During this campaign both the PEBs (done under the banner of Welsh Labour Party) and Carwyn Jones himself have refered to Welsh Labour. BBC news. I see were you are coming from, but I still believe that we need to point out the differences, the clear red water between Welsh Labour and UK Labour, and maybe have Labour (Welsh Labour) would be the best way to do that.--Welshsocialist (talk) 13:32, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the apology, which I accept. I don't understand exactly what it is you are trying to achieve here. I pointed out above that Welsh Labour is already linked separately in both the infobox and in the Intro. Are you trying to delete any link to the Labour Party(UK)? Daicaregos (talk) 14:41, 7 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I am trying to strike the balance that is needed in dealing with issues to do with a devovled Wales, in acknowledging the differences between Welsh Labour and UK Labour. I also feel that all articles for Labour AMs, not just Carwyn, in the next Assembly should have some kind of compromised position to deal with the two points. As I said, I feel having "and is a representive of Labour (Welsh Labour)" or something to that effect, in the opening of the articles would deal with both the issue of the electoral commission, and take into account the differences of Welsh Labour in policy, and as a political entity.--Welshsocialist (talk) 22:58, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The second of your suggested two ways to resolve this, either "by including Welsh Labour in brackets, or by the seperate links in the infobox and the general text", already happens in the article. Welsh Labour is noted (and Wikilinked) in the infobox and in the article Lead (btw, your first suggestion would look awful and would be far more confusing than explaining in plain words that the Labour Party pursue separate policies at the Senedd). Daicaregos (talk) 08:43, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you trying to deny the existence/links to the Welsh Labour Party? The trouble with your point, is that it doesn't fit in with the articles in question and would be out of place. I have tried to put forward a more reasonble compromise, well two of them. I do not understand your objections to them. Also, I am trying to get this sorted for ALL Welsh Labour AMs, not just Carwyn Jones.--Welshsocialist (talk) 15:57, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
 * No, I am not trying to deny the existence/links to Welsh Labour. Although it may be preferable in some cases, there is no requirement for all articles to be exactly the same. As Carwyn Jones is First Minister, for example, his article will be different to AMs with no portfolio and should be structured differently. There is no need for a compromise on this article. Your wish to have Welsh Labour noted (and Wikilinked) in the infobox and in the article Lead, has happened already. May I suggest you start an RfC on one of the articles that may need fixing, rather than discuss it on this one, which doesn't. Daicaregos (talk) 14:30, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

The National Assembly Website now has their party labeled as Welsh LabourAs shown. If that is not a reiable source, I don't know what is.--Welshsocialist (talk) 12:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Nationality
It is extremely insulting to suggest that Wales is not a nation. MOS:BIO shows how the opening paragraph should be set out. It includes a link to Nationality of people from the United Kingdom. I have changed the opening paragraph per MOS:BIO. Please do not delete reference to his Welsh nationality again. Daicaregos (talk) 10:33, 4 March 2010 (UTC)


 * As I said at Talk:Rhodri Morgan, no one is suggesting that Wales isn't a nation; I just said your linkage to the article Welsh people is wrong. Per MOS:BIO, nationality - ie the country someone is from - is what is linked, not their ethnic background. The correct linkage is 'Welsh' (or no link at all).--Cúchullain t/ c 13:36, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Answered at Talk:Rhodri Morgan. But MOS:BIO shows it should be linked. Daicaregos (talk) 14:05, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * And after looking around some, it appears there is even less consistency in nationality linkage for people from the UK than ever. I'd say let's just leave it be until some consensus develops, though I would like to see us develop consistent approach towards our articles on the Welsh Assembly.--Cúchullain t/ c 14:30, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure. No problem. Daicaregos (talk) 15:35, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Ordinals in Infobox
The office of the leader of the National Assembly for Wales is currently known as the First Minister for Wales (Welsh: Prif Weinidog Cymru). This was not always so. It was known previously as First Secretary for Wales (Prif Ysgrifennydd Cymru). Consequently, although it may be technically correct to asign a number to the office, it is misleading (and unnecessary), as the 2nd person to be named First Minister for Wales is actually the 3rd person to be the leader of the National Assembly for Wales. Further, American politics is different to the Welsh model. An American president is elected for a fixed term for that role. The fixed term of the Wales Assemby Government is for the members of the Assembly, not the First Minister who is elected by the AMs. In theory, there could be dozens of First Ministers during the fixed, four year term, (coalition governments come & go all the time). Bering this in mind, adding ordinals to the office serves no useful purpose. I have removed the ordinal from the infobox to reflect this. Daicaregos (talk) 10:40, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Had the title been First Minister of Wales for all those individuals? it would've been alright to number them. The Westminister system isn't barred from such numbering. GoodDay (talk) 13:31, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

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Ministerial appointments
There seems to be some confusion/errors in the dates of Mr Jones' appointments.

He became a Deputy Secretary (junior minister) in March 2000 and was promoted to the Cabinet on 23 July 2000. I can find no announcment or news story shwoing the date in March 2000 when he became a Deputy Secetary.

In terms of his Cabinet appointments they were:

23 July 2000: Agriculture and Rural Development Secretary

26th Feb 2002: Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business.

18th June 2002: Minister for Open Government (which included Assembly Business) (at which point Mike German took over as Agriculture Minister)

13th May 2003 Minister for Environment, Planning and Countryside. This appointment is listed on the article as 1st May 2003 (which was election day, deffinetly didn't happen then and the Cabinet was not announced by evening of 7th May 2003 see page 6: http://www.assembly.wales/record%20of%20proceedings%20documents/the%20record-07052003-41456/bus-chamber-n0000000000000000000000000009653-english.pdf

In 2007 he briefly became Education Minister before being appointed Counsel General and finally FM in 2009.

Paulharding150 (talk) 10:03, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

If he ethnically welsh?
If he ethnically welsh? Kaiyr (talk) 08:17, 13 September 2022 (UTC)