Talk:Casey Serin/Archives/2015

A Reminder of Relevant Wikipedia Policies for New Editors
First of all, thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia!


 * Because Serin is a living person, please consult the policy on Biographies of Living Persons (WP:BLP) before making changes to this article.
 * Information that you add must reflect a neutral point of view, or it will be removed immediately and without discussion. The Neutral Point of View page (WP:NPOV) has a further explanation of this policy.
 * Negative information that cannot be verified (WP:V) using published sources must also be removed immediately. Keep in mind that the standard for inclusion is verifiability, not truth.  The page on reliable sources (WP:RS) will help you decide if your source meets encyclopedia standards.
 * Wikipedia does not accept any original research. Any facts, opinions, definitions or analysis included in this article must have been previously published by a reliable source in relation to Serin himself.  The pages on the original research policy (WP:NOR), and on the synthesis of published materials (WP:SYN), clarify these requirements.
 * Do not vandalize the article or the talk page (WP:VAND). Among other things, this means you can't: blank the article, insert nonsense, insert external links to non-notable blogs or online petitions (WP:SPAM), or remove/modify other people's comments on the talk page - except to remove libelous attacks.

Also, please sign your comments using four tildes (~). Happy editing! Saranary 17:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Notability
I just saw that a previous attempt at this page (which I have not seen) was deleted a few weeks ago. So I'd like to make a case for the notability:

1. Coverage in the press: as noted in the article and can be verified (with google) there have been several distinct (i.e., authors doing their own interviews, as opposed to re-reporting or just going off what they can find on the net) articles in the mainstream press.

2. Poster child: Google comes up with his blog from google(looser foreclosure), i.e., without referencing the name or particulars of the site. So it is not so much that he is particularly noteworthy in the predicament he finds himself in, but that people see him as the poster child representing some of the troubles with the housing bubble.

3. Currency: he is in the news (google news on "casey serin" produces a dozen hits in the past four weeks).

4. Comps: When looking for a similar sort of figure I came across Larry Walters. Guy who does something stupid, which gets noticed and makes his way (in a small way) into our lore. We are starting a little earlier in the case of Casey.

So I would recommend we develop and maintain the page and then look back after the dust settles and see if there is longer-term notability, or if it is really just a flash in the pan. I suspect the encyclopedic importance will be the symbolic role he is playing by being able to put a name and face to some of the shady dealings that take place during a bubble. -- Jake 23:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll second that. AaronWL 09:21, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is a recent example of how the media looks to Casey when they need an example:
 * Some borrowers, meantime, contracted real estate fever and took out loans they didn't fully understand or stretched their budgets too thin. Some lied about their income on their loan applications, sometimes with a wink or a little help from their broker on a stated-income loan.
 * Casey Serin is a classic case. Serin, a Sacramento website designer who was profiled in USA TODAY in October, has admitted that he lied on his loan applications to buy eight houses in four states as investments. He hoped to flip them for a quick profit, but he made too many newbie mistakes. He sold three of the homes, the lenders foreclosed on two, and he's still trying to sell the remaining three.


 * Wow -- I'm impressed -- I failed their notability requirements even though I helped put an award winning science fiction Trilogy published in 1975 that Alan Moore is a fan of into comic book form, and translated an early 20th century French pulp into English... guess I wasn't persistent enough--24.176.10.125 (talk) 16:54, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

TODO
1. A little more on the deals to lead into how they lead to trouble. Cash back loans. Stated income or "Liar loans". I created the table of deals, i cannot access the sacramento county real estate records page(It needs Explorer 7, and I don't run explorer out of principle), so if someone can add some material on his sold properties, and even links to the land records or the mortgage records, that would be good. I found most of the material to date in that on his own site, and the table shows a best effort analysis, i think it would take some serious forensic accounting to calculate some of the profits or cash backs.

2. The blogging angle: running commentary about the legality of his actions and if he is going to jail. Blog taken down briefly then put back up (cat was already out of the bag).

3. A little more background on earlier Ponzi schemes? Or not, they weren't very notable and most Bios try to take a positive tone about the subject except as warranted otherwise. Hmm.

4. According to the courthouse link, he and his wife had another conference on November 26th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Funkyfred1933 (talk • contribs) 17:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Personal Info
Since this is a biography of a living person we should respect his wishes to keep his family out of the public discussion. Since they don't figure into his notoriety (at least by name), I have removed the name of his wife. Jake 22:18, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean G alina?. Her involvement in his schemes real estate purchases is a matter of public record. He has made no concerted effort to protect her privacy. --PeterMarkSmith 07:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * He may have bungled in keeping her name out of the public record, but he has made an effort to keep her name off his blog and out of the news. --Jake
 * CS recently made a post with a photo of himself and Galina, referring to her by name. So I guess there is no need to avoid naming her in the article now, providing the use is relevant to the subject matter. Captain Nemo III 20:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, that is who we are talking about. No, I have never met Casey, but following along the train wreck that is his blog.

Jake, please keep deleting out of the Casey Serin article. I'll cut and paste what I wrote on Exurban Nation: "First of all, only her name and birthday is listed -- hardly some tell-all exposé. Secondly, she isn't some random figure whose information is put up just so we can harass her. She's clearly involved in this whole saga, from the signing of documents, to the attempted re-habbing of the houses, to taking the guru classes, to appearing at the recent foreclosure auction. Thirdly, as pointed out on the 'Talk' page, Casey makes no effort to hide her identity. Every 'hater' on the internet knows who she is. Please stop deleting her name... rant off, thanks." -- signed, "Benoit"
 * Benoit, what if we refrain from mentioning Galina on the Wiki page (or any other member of his family) unless she is ever charged with an actual crime? I appreciate that you believe that she was criminally complicit in this entire scheme, but she is not a public figure and the evidence (while somewhat strong) is still circumstantial.  I'm as critical/resentful with Casey as the next guy, but until charges are filed and become a matter of public record, it seems prudent to not mention her by name or include any pictures of her. - walt526

We don't each have a page of everything we do that is public record. I am going by the information on biography of a living person:
 * Biographies of living people must be written conservatively and with due regard to the subject's privacy.
 * In borderline cases, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. It is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives.

His wife isn't in the newspaper articles, and isn't on his blog, and isn't part of his notoriety. He has been pretty clear about his desire to have his family "left out of it", he is a living person, and the guidelines I just quoted are rather clear. I personally don't really care, and you are certainly welcome to do what you want on your own blog, etc. I am just trying to keep this encyclopedic. I am willing to concede that she is involved, but is not as notable (37 vs 28,000 hits on google). Perhaps a compromise would be to call out that she is referred to as G on the blog, and Casey has made efforts to keep her and his family out of the press, but her name is part of the public record. --Jake 18:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Why is Wikipedia's policy so important? Galina is a hottie, and she'll be available once she divorces Casey's sorry bankrupt ass.  She's so doable, I'd hit her in a minute.

I agree that Casey's family is not relevant or notable to any significant extent at this time. While she may be involved, this part of her involvement is probably not worthy of mention here. In addition, some people seem to be adding personal references to Galina with a seemingly hostile intent. I think we should mention the names of Casey's immediate family, and leave it at that. The family picture is probably too much; it should be replaced with something that is somehow related with Casey's housing adventures. AaronWL 04:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't be losers...leave his wife out of it

No - we're not the loosers(tm) now - he's brought his wife back into it on his blog so it's time to put her name back in the article me think! --PeterMarkSmith 03:51, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * His wife is not notable. The extent of her participation in the deals has not been established, and she has not been charged with a crime.  As yet, she has not participated in Serin's publicity either.  You seem very eager to include her name as an act of spite, but this would be inappropriate for Wikipedia.  Saranary 18:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The guy's birthday is given with different values, both 1982 and 1987. Another hustle? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.142.156.166 (talk) 05:28, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

reactions
I think we may need another section for stuff like: http://www.freewebs.com/creepyoldman/CaseyChart.html, http://exurbannation.blogspot.com/, http://iamnotfacingforeclosure.com, http://www.caseyserin.org/, http://galinaserin.blogspot.com/, http://caseyserin.info that are outgrowths or reactions to Casey's site. I'm not inspired at the moment for the right way to approach this with an encyclopedic tone. Jake 03:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There was already a reference to the "hater sites" in Criticisms, so I added links to those. I didn't add the chart separately, because it's available on exurbannation. 66.30.12.137 08:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Jamba juice
Who cares that he likes jamba juice? This is an encyclopedia


 * Reply - This is actually extremely relevant to the Casey story, ever since he posted his bank statement online last October or thereabouts, which revealed that despite being millions of dollars in debt, he was still a regular Jamba Juice customer. Since then, 'Jamba Juice' has become a recurring catchphrase on Casey's blog, usually to symbolise something that he cannot realistically afford, but which he still feels entitled to. And acknowledging this in his Wikipedia entry will also explain the multiple references for the benefit of newcomers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.137.196.166 (talk) 13:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC).


 * I agree with the changes, earlier the Jamba Juice was included as "Casey is blablabla, lives with his wife. He likes Jumba Juice". I think it is releveant to explain the connection with the blog though. OneWorld22 19:13, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Site is down
The site is down as of 3/8/2007. Is the blog done you think? The FBI catch up to him? Or just Casey failing to keep up with his bills? OneWorld22 22:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Nah - "Snowflake" (as his fans know him) can't seem to find a reliable free host for it. --PeterMarkSmith 06:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

3/14/07 Entry About This Article
Casey has blogged about the wiki page today; I would expect that there will be a lot of people trying to make changes in the upcoming days. Is there a way to get the page protected? 198.144.208.32 15:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)Sprezzatura
 * The page doesn't need to be protected unless it is being vandalised lots. In that case an admin would need to be found to do so.
 * As to casey's post tho he does have a good point about the poor quality of the article. Casey has appeared in lots of papers so it would be good to use more of these as sources rather that his own words. I think the end article will always be seen as a bit negative by Casey unless he does get rich quick soon from some sweet deal! --J2thawiki 15:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

03/14/07 Flurry of edits expected
The subject of the entry has complained that the article is not fair. Going so far as to use the word libelous. He's asked "supporters" to edit the content for more balance. The response among critics has been a groundswell of wanting to put up even more information going back to his earliest attempts at fast money using a pryamid scheme mail fraud on the internet. The subject lives in California, a common property State. His debts are his wife's debts. He has even posted the particulars of her outstanding credit issues in a google spreadsheet. He has posted her picture in flickr showing her direct involvement. He has blogged about her attending RE seminars. If the subject is the source of the information there should be no question of privacy.


 * Your article is weak and one sided as well as non-factual —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.9.124.59 (talk • contribs).

03/14/07 - removal of attempt to use shell corporation
Serin has admitted that he was/is trying to set up a shell corporation to lend himself money to pay off personal debts. Why was this removed from the "criticism" section?
 * It's in the background section. To include it in the criticism section would need a reliable source to someone criticising him for it.--J2thawiki 17:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

3/14/07 - Do not vandalize the talk pages
24.9.124.59 and 12.215.162.213 have removed others' comments from this talk page. Please append your own comments rather than deleting those with which you disagree. I have restored the missing text.Saranary 18:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I reverted a comment back after another user deleted it and replaced it with his own. Is it Wikipedia policy to allow someone's comment to remain after they have vandalized another's comment and replaced it with their own?  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.215.162.213 (talk • contribs).


 * Wikipedia discourages removing others' comments on the talk page, no matter what the justification. Also, please sign your comments with four tildes "~".  129.186.205.84 20:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll keep removing personal references all I want, on either page. Sure Casey is a clown, but he nothing compared to the bitter, pathetic losers(haters) who keep trying beat another person down while he is in trouble.

You'll only end up getting your IP 24.9.124.59 blocked by a wikinazi. --PeterMarkSmith 04:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Question: Is there any way to make talk section pages append only except for admin types? It would solve this(above) problem and remove headaches.

Links to Casey Video files
How about adding links to some of the video clips Casey has been on?

He's been on Rich Dad TV where he admits his fraud and crimes. This is interesting, since PRLinkbiz set up the meeting, Casey is trapped in some sort of contract with her, and Kiyosaki totally humiliated Casey. I actually felt bad for Serin.

Other youtube Casey Serin videos can be found here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 170.148.10.43 (talk) 22:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC).
 * I hope they delete this article so it can start over with less of a "Hype Factor". Casey DOES NOT admit to fraud or crimes ANYWHERE, EVER.  That is only you opinion of what he said...report the facts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.9.124.59 (talk) 21:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC).
 * This is incorrect. Please review his podcast with Jerome Mayne--Jerichohill817 02:33, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The only thing I've heard him say is that he thought he might have done something wrong...NOT "I herby confess to this act, committed on this date, at this place and for the intention of defrauding". Why so impatient?  Let the story unfold...it may take years.  I'm sorry if the time it takes is inconvenient for you, but that doesn't give you the right to say something that isn't true. 189.146.94.219 14:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If you read his blog and listen to his podcasts, and view the nightline footage, he admits that. Specifically the nightline footage.  Thanks. Please stop deleted sourced and cited materials. --149.101.1.127 18:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)I suppose Casey admitting he lied on his loans, that he committed mortgage fraud, and that me may go to jail isn't enough to convince you that Casey has admitted to fraud and crimes.
 * No, it is not. Casey's opinions are not legal facts.  When he is convicted, feel free to call him a criminal...So simple, yet so hard for you...I don't understand why that is hard for you to understand.  Have you listened to Casey much?  He is obviously confused, mis-guided, ill-informed and even (perhaps) not real bright.  So now you want to credit him with being a legal authority, which he is not.  He has repeatedly stated he did not realise he was doing something wrong at the time he did it.
 * As for removing cited references, the citation needs to be accurate and relevant. Citing a Freddie Mac article that doesn't mention Casey because someone thinks it supports their personal point of view is completely innappropriate.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.237.92.216 (talk) 22:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC).
 * I'd advise to stop the attacks. The Fannie Mae article cites what is considered mortgage fraud.  Casey's own documentation, statements to media, the sourced news articles, all lay out the details of what he did.  I doubt Nightline would question the illegality of his actions on TV if they didn't know it was illegal.--149.101.1.127 14:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Like I said, UNRELATED ARTICLED USED TO DRAW CONCLUSIONS. What part don't you get?  The article states nothing about Casey.  You want to use it to make an accusation.  That is not appropriate for an encyclopedia.  Report FACTS, not make assertions.  Why do you want to state something that is not a fact?  You do realize that you cannot confess to a crime you didn't commit?  It is not allowed.  You want to jump ahead and pass judgement.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.237.92.216 (talk) 16:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC).
 * In this case, 71.237.92.216 is correct. Wikipedia does not accept original research, which includes synthesis of published materials from different sources to advance a particular position.  This means that you cannot say, "Well, assertion A was published by a reliable source, and assertion B was also published by a reliable source, so it is permissible to combine these two to form assertion C."  There's a very good example in the Wikipedia policy on synthesis of published materials, which you can read at WP:SYN.  Remember that the standard for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability from published sources.  To support the original sentence about Freddie Mac, it would be necessary to find an article by FM that talks specifically about Serin's situation.  Also, guys, please sign your posts. Saranary 17:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Casey's opinions ase also not a legal finding of fact...Why are you so stupid that you just can't grasp a simple concept. If you want to say he is a criminal when that hasn't been determined, go ahead, it only shows your ignorance.  Either way it is not encyclopedia material.  On top of that, like many people who face foreclosure, bankruptcy or even a simple missing of payments, they all stop and wonder if what they are doing is illegal and if they can get in trouble. Casey has a tendency to blurt, doesn't make him a criminal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.9.124.59 (talk) 15:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC).


 * In his podcast with Jerome Mayne, someone convicted of mortgage fraud, Casey was told that he had committed fraud. Mayne would appear to be a credible source for such a statement —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jerichohill817 (talk • contribs) 02:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC).
 * A convicted felon accusing someone of something is definately not a finding of legal fact. That is probably the worst reason of any that has been suggested to call Casey a criminal.  Funny though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.237.92.57 (talk) 16:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC).
 * No matter how much of an authority Mayne may be on the topic, his opinion is exactly that - an opinion. Wikipedia articles should be grounded in fact, not speculation.  129.186.205.84 17:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Other folks known for stuff that they aren't proud of
I have been looking for some other articles about living persons who are notable mostly for something they did that went wrong. (I was looking for the big "oops" rather than outright crooks. Still looking for someone known primarily in blogging circles.) I think these might serve as examples of how to treat this page in an encyclopedic way: --Jake 23:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Joseph Hazelwood -- Captain of the Exxon Valdez
 * Michael D. Brown -- From FEMA
 * Are you seriously comparing Serin's poor business decisions to an ecological catastrophe or mismanagement of a federal agency? Really? Scale definitely matters here, and personal blogs just aren't that important . Serin is not the first target picked out by bored bloggers and he will not be the last. Documenting such petty vendettas is both morally bankrupt and against Wikipedia policy. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 00:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * "Poor business decisions," "catastrophe," and "mismanagement" are not grounded in fact. Please try to keep your comments neutral and supported by facts.  12.215.162.213 00:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Please try to keep your comments nebulous and full of shit. Wait... ˉˉanetode╦╩ 00:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Just pointing out the hypocrisy of demanding a neutral, objective, unopinionated article, while at the same time throwing off all sorts of subjective adjectives to describe CS and other notable people. Hazelwood and Brown are small potatoes--in another section of the talk page, someone is comparing Serin to Hitler and Saddam.  12.215.162.213 14:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Hazelwood and Brown received international media coverage and had a tangible influence on the course of history, Serin did not. There are some lessons to be learned from other biographies of controversial people, sure, but the overriding issue is scale. Serin is a mediagenic nobody, he may have committed small-scale fraud, but his actual influence on any field, even the real estate market, is inconsequential. I am amazed at the intense fervor with which so many people are assembling this muckraking campaign against Serin. Few, if any, of these anonymous editors have contributed anything of value to Wikipedia other than this article, but they vigorously defend it in spite basic Wikipedia policies like WP:COI, WP:BLP, or WP:RS. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 21:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I think that WP:BLP guidelines should overrule the desire to produce a salacious story. 129.186.205.84 19:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Nobody's comparing Serin to Hitler. It's a direct quote from the WP:NPOV page to illustrate why Wikipedia does not endorse namecalling or labeling.  Ultimately, it always backfires on the authors who try to slip it in to articles, by making the article less credible. 209.234.66.97 16:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I was looking for other examples of bios of living people (who are not convicted felons) who are known primarily for something negative. I would really rather find examples on a similar scale, but 10 minutes thought and a couple failed google searches didn't produce anything better. (I do think these are closer than Hitler and Saddam which others have used). I don't think his notability has much at all to do with the negative blogs, but rather the mainstream media coverage. --Jake 00:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * On that, at least, we agree. The problem is, there isn't really any solid information to build a biography on, outside of hearsay and slander. Is it worth it to try to create a biography based on fifteen minutes of media coverage? Journalists didn't pick Serin's case because they thought it was significant, they appropriated his story to illustrate a trend. (On a side note, thank you for staying away from Godwin's Law) ˉˉanetode╦╩ 00:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It's only hearsay if you or I say that Casey said something. It's not hearsay if Casey says something, and we cite to his own blog where he says the fact in his own words.  If you or I reproduce that fact on Wikipedia, it still isn't hearsay.  Even if we were talking about hearsay (and we're not here), many of Serin's statements would count as a declaration against penal interest, and would still be admissible in court, the rationale being, people don't usually admit to crimes that they didn't commit.  Anna Toad 21:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Hearsay, in this case, is posting speculation based on what Serin may have posted on his blog. A disturbing amount of this article amounts to shady analysis of a primary source - not fit for journalism, and definitely not fit for any sort of encyclopedia.ˉˉanetode╦╩ 21:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * In a great many ways, Casey Serin reminds me of a smaller-scale Nick Leeson - to cite another person who was massively out of his depth when it came to financial matters.86.151.27.21 15:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)Miguel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sercasey
User:Sercasey - isn't Sercasey Casey Serin's nick? --PeterMarkSmith 12:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It might be the nickname he uses, but there's no evidence that he is the guy who registered it. That account hasn't edited any articles, either.   209.234.66.97 16:20, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Why the "This article may contain improper references to self-published sources" tag?
Why was the selfpub tag added? This article has a lot of references to Casey's own blog, but according to the Wikipedia policy WP:SELFPUB: "Material from self-published or questionable sources may be used in articles about those sources". So it seemes to me that there shouldn't be any problem with citing Casey's blog in an article about Casey, especially since there are many other references to published media. Can you clarify the problem? Thanks. --Billgordon1099 17:10, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * My guess is selective attention, to wit:
 * Material from self-published or questionable sources may be used in articles about those sources, so long as:
 * it is relevant to their notability;
 * it is not contentious;
 * it is not unduly self-serving;
 * it does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject;
 * there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it;
 * the article is not based primarily on such sources.
 * (from WP:SELFPUB) ˉˉanetode╦╩ 22:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Creditors hounding Casey... citeable reference...
See... http://www.xanga.com/guestbook.aspx?user=sercasey --PeterMarkSmith 14:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Xanga guestbook entries aren't reliable sources. See WP:ATTR for more appropriate references.  129.186.205.84 18:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I strongly doubt that the posts purporting to come from 'Cashcall', 'Countrywideloans' and 'WELLSFARGOBANKCOLLECTIONS' are genuine. The fact that all three were created on the same Sunday is suspicious enough, and the unprofessionalism of the posters claiming to be from Countrywide and Wells Fargo nail it for me.  If they are genuine, then the person who wrote "Hey did you forget about us? Just cause you're in lender ignore mode doesn't mean we don't exist you retard. We'll have our way with you eventually, and we'll ensure you a life of debt. You knw what they say- No Money, No honey. Looks like your best shot at getting laid from here on out is with Swaby!!! AHAHAHAHAHA!" has some explaining to do when they return to the office on Monday. 86.151.27.21 19:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Sources for "Properties Owned by Serin?
The information in this table isn't cited to any public records. Is there any reliable (non-blog) source for the W-2 income/Cash Back columns in this table? 129.186.205.84 19:16, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

at least all the properties where serin listed a street number a tax record or property record could be found. city of dallas maintains these records online, and i'd seen them for several of the properties.

Given he himself stated his income in his own online blog, it seems reasonable to include that under the "admission against interest" rule.

certainly it would be useful for a contributor to run down all of his property tax records and land records. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.163.166.151 (talk • contribs)


 * Is there any reliable third-party source for the specific figures you added to the W2/Cash back columns, other than Serin's own blog? Perhaps a newspaper article?  Legal briefs?  Saranary 23:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * There are, and Im going to find them. Zillow or Realestateabc are good starting points...it will take digging but we can find em--Jerichohill817 02:34, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Wanted to point out that we've got a few properties sourced now...the dates and figures line up with what casey serin has posted on his blog--149.101.1.127 18:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Ninth house, lender googled and declined him?
I've been following Serin's blog, but not from the beginning. I often edit Wikipedia, but I don't have an account.

The article used to say that Serin tried to buy a ninth house, but that the lender declined him after googling for his name, and finding the blog. I dimly remember some discussion of that, but I was looking for the reference on iamfacingforeclosure, and I can't find it.

I've therefore removed that sentence from the article. If it was true, then please put it back with a reference. 71.192.58.216 04:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I seem to recall it being in the video of the talk he did at the university: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-431109108026954275
 * I'm not sure if a transcript was ever produced.
 * It is about 41:40 into the video: "I was going to get $50,000 at close ... The lone got denied. And then I'm talking to the mortgage broker and he tells me, you won't believe this, 'they googled you and they found one of your blogs'" --Jake 01:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * So he does. I transcribed while I watched, starting around 40:40:


 * She [Serin's wife] is very conscious about her credit, I already mentioned that, so to her, a high credit score, is directly tied to her self-esteem, so if she ever misses a payment, that would be one of the worst things ever. And I also don't like to miss payments, but I don't see it, I don't treat it with as much respect. I probably should, but to her it's very important to never miss a payment, and so she's freaked out, and I'm kind of freaked out too, and I go out for one more deal, and I negotiate a deal where I was going to get fifty thousand dollars at close. Again, I'm doing all these deals 100% financed. I'm leveraging myself to the max, and so, spread myself very thin. I only did one where I actually had to put money down. That was the Dallas property, I used a hard money loan. They only lend up to 70% LTV, loan to value ratio.


 * So I go for this one last deal, and everything's looking good, I'm going to get my fifty just to hold me over for a couple of months, so I can figure out how I can sell all these houses fast enough. And the deal falls through. At the last minute, literally days before I was supposed to come through, the loan got denied. And I'm talking to the mortgage broker, and he tells me, you won't believe it.They googled you. And they found one of your blogs. And at the time I was experimenting with a blog where I was just talking about some of my travels--just for my friends and family, I wasn't even try to talk about it for the public at large. It was supposed to be hidden from the search engines, but somehow they found it, don't know if they used a backdoor. And I was amazed. You hear about losing your job for blogging, this is getting denied on a loan for blogging. The Internet keeps you honest. Be careful what you write on there. So the mortgage broker's like, I've never seen this happen before. The underwriters normally don't go to this extent to investigate somebody. They probably did because, this is 2006 and the foreclosures are on the rise. People are investigating some of these loans, the lenders are more careful. Everyone's tightening their belt. They probably looked at my loan, they probably saw that I'm trying to run this thing as a second home, and have this elaborate letter of explanation for why I'm buying yet another second home in New Mexico, and just didn't smell too good to the lender, I can see why. And I'm not proud of doing all that stuff, by the way. But I needed to get it done to get some of that money, to keep this thing afloat.


 * And so it falls through, and I'm like, oh, crap, now what? And I kind of got depressed for a few weeks, I didn't know what I was going to do, and well, we stopped paying the mortgages. We couldn't find any other money. It went downhill from there. So now I'm facing foreclosure on--when that happened, I had six houses. I ended up selling one mid-September, last month. So now I'm down to five houses. And I'm about four months--October will be the fourth payment I'm missing. And also I have...2.2 million of total debt right now. About 2.1, almost 2.1 million of that is mortgages. And about 140 000 dollars of that is unsecured debt, credit cards, credit lines.


 * I'll put the claim back, with the video as a reference. 71.192.58.216 06:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Being Bold
Are there any objections to my being bold and removing any unsourced information? Usually, I would post a request for references at the section level (as is already done in the article) and at the sentence level for sentences most needed references, but as this is a biography of a living person, I believe no information is better than possibly false information. Sancho (talk) 15:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. It's been several days since the requests for citation were put up.  I also believe that the negative information sourced only to Serin's own blog should be removed.  Previous versions of this page have included the claim that Serin exaggerates his financial problems or makes inflammatory posts in order to secure more publicity.  If there's doubt about his story, we should rely on published sources instead.  Since he's been featured in the news, it shouldn't be too hard for editors to substantiate these claims in the future, if they choose to.  Saranary 16:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I just have to say, all the wikinazis really turned this bio into a suckfest. There's no real point to reading this entry anymore as all the poignant and interesting info has been censored out... 65.98.209.34 16:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but this is an encyclopedia. You'll have to go elsewhere if you want to read salacious gossip. SkipSmith 18:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the reference to readers contacting authorities. The source was sketchy and didn't even substantiate the claim made. Also I fail to see how readers doing anything is noteworthy.

It looks like people have made an effort to provide references that are probably not accurate in an effort to satisfy wiki rules.

Using Serin's blog entries as a source
There is a precedent for rejecting a subject's admissions in blog posts as a source, even when the disclosures are not in the subject's best interest and there is no doubt about the authorship. Jason Fortuny's entry was deleted because it was largely based on his livejournal entries, in which he confessed to illegal and embarrassing things. The livejournal was deemed too unreliable to be used in a biography of a living person. The same standard should apply to this article, imo. 129.186.205.84 21:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Surely if we preface or cite statements by saying they are from Serin's blog the reader can judge how accurate or not they are. What I'm getting at is simply reporting what Serin has said himself has said using formulations like "According to his blog Serin overrepresented his income to the lenders..." and so on. Lisiate 23:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

since I think this counts as a source...where appropriate--149.101.1.127 19:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I am editing in this link http://www.economist.com/finance/displayhttp://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8885853story.cfm?story_id=8885853
 * The link is broken, but I found a working one on the Economist website and fixed it. Thanks for the link; it's much better than the blog.  129.186.205.84 19:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for correcting my broken link. I don't normally edit this wiki, but am active on others.  I appreciate the help, and yes, its much better than a blog source!--149.101.1.127 19:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I am trying to source a good many things...theres alot of media coverage that hasn't been mentioned so I will try and clean this thing up over the next week. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.83.187.248 (talk • contribs) 02:26, March 23, 2007 (UTC)

keeping the verify tag
To underscore the necessity of keeping the "verify" tag up in the background section: I notice that Serin made a post about purchasing penny stocks as an April Fools' hoax, and retracted it the following day. Yet it was still reported as fact in the article. Internet postings are not reliable sources. 129.186.205.84 21:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Education and Background
Shouldn't something be said about his education? He has denigrated a college education, even stopped wife from finishing her degree, yet he's spent thousands of dollars on get-rich-quick seminars and guru classes (one of them called "Nouveau Rich University" for instance). I'm not quite sure if he has a GED or High School Diploma; he has never given a direct response over it. It might be an interesting angle to explore and flesh out his background. Also, something could be said of the Chain Letter he wrote as a possible source of his pyramid scheme type behavior.Cnadolski 03:44, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The chain letter incident has not been substantiated with reliable sources; see the discussion in "POV issues" especially with respect to WP:ATTR. Same problem would apply to any discussion of Serin's educational background that is sourced primarily to his own blog.  129.186.205.84 22:02, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Ramit of Iwillteachyoutoberich.com went to high school with Casey. But there's no supporting documentation. Casey just did a very long sessio begging for money to stave off cashcall and did post his resume, which does not include any collegiate degrees. Is that allowable as a source (the posting of one's resume) or does that fall into blogging?


 * A resume or work history posted to a blog, particularly in the context of this situation, is not a reliable source under WP:ATTR. Given that the Baltimore Sun found that 23% of people admit to lying on their resumes, you can surely see the problem here.  129.186.205.84 22:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Although you could use his blog to reference the statement: "Serin claims to have only taken one unit ..." (whatever the correct claim is). A direct quote would be even better, because then it would be less likely to be edited to lose the context. --Jake 22:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed the citation that Freddie Mac asserts Casey's actions are mortgage fraud. The Freddie Mac article makes no such assertion directed towards Casey. The statement seems to be a way to make an accusation of fraud to satisfy a personal judgement by whoever placed it there. It seems to be intentionally deceptive.

Questions about this Article
Why is this considered VANDALISM. I am trying to put in a very important fact that IS referenced AND sourced in by a reputable publication. "and that the cash was paid to a bogus company, controlled by a third party. It was then funneled back to Serin. In all other escrows, cash was paid to the seller, then back to Serin after closing" That is a direct quote from the Scotsman Guide, and seems to be very important.--149.101.1.120 19:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know why your edit was tagged as vandalism. I initially paraphrased the Scotsman quote because you tacked it on to the end of the paragraph with no effort to integrate it.  Twice in two consecutive sentences, the paragraph mentioned "received cash back on six houses."  The portion of the quote that I removed was a lengthy description of how cash back at closing happens (money given to a third party and back to the buyer). Since this is pretty common knowledge and not unique to Serin's situation, I found it off-topic.   I paraphrased your reversion the second time, adding the bit about how cash back is handled, because direct copying from another article is a copyright violation.  Saranary 20:00, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * That's fine. I understand that.  I'm trying to keep as much information in as I can, and I thought that direct quoting would be okay, so now we've paraphrased it.  I do think that the "bogus" distinct is very important to Serin's story because of the legal implications of some of his mortgage activities.  Oh yeah, I signed in because the DOJ in DC is all under 1 IP.--Jerichohill817 20:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Direct quotes can be permissible under some circumstances, if it's made very clear which words and phrases were lifted from the original source. If the quote is more than a sentence long and the specific wording is not as important as the information it conveys, it's better to paraphrase and cite. The article reads better, and the paragraph is less likely to be removed entirely for copyright reasons.  As far as the "bogus" designation goes, I don't agree that it's critical to the article.  However, if you choose to include it, it would probably be better to make it clear that that's the Scotsman's choice of word, not Wikipedia's, as it violates Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy.  Saranary 20:30, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This edit by Talk:72.11.65.201 removed the Scotsman case study/"bogus" mention entirely. I don't understand why.  The edit comment states "cited section was not news content; article in question did not present allegations in question".  Is there a rule that Wikipedia can only cite news sources? Or should this content just be moved out of the "Background" section of this article? As for "not present [ing] the allegations in question" - the article's author, Simpson, clearly states the $50k cashback scenario near the bottom of page 1. It's an editorial/case study in a mortgage trade publication by the "senior legal counsel" of a mortgage asset recovery company (therefore arguably it's "expert knowledge"), and as it was reworded, per Saranary's feedback, it clearly attributed the comment to Simpson in the Scotsman Guide, not Wikipedia.  Therefore, I believe it should be restored. --Georgeryp 23:44, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Edit is reverted.  My best guess is that it was referencing the wrong scotsman guide article.  Anyways, its done.--Jerichohill817 00:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. However, before jumping all over 72.11.65.201, remember that this is a biography of a living person; consequently, editors are supposed to err on the side of caution when it comes to sourcing.  If the wrong article was cited, and the provided link didn't support Simpson's claims, then 72.11.65.201 was in the right to remove it immediately, without discussion.  Jerichohill was in the right to provide the correct citation. Saranary 16:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * A moot point now, but for the record, the correct article was cited - see citation [9] in the version before 72.11.65.201's edit.
 * Now I understand 72.11.65.201's concerns, the passage contains the pharse: "The Scotsman Guide... reported", but the article is not the work of a journalist at the Guide, it's a contribution from a third party (Simpson). So what does that make it... a "contributor's piece" or an "editorial" or what?  It clearly should be rephrased. I'll attempt to do so to communicate it was a contributor to the Scotman Guide, not the Guide itself --Georgeryp 17:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The reference to the Scotsman Guide is borderline at best.  It appears to be opinion backed mainly by speculation.  I'll leave it for someone else to decide though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.237.92.216 (talk) 16:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC).
 * Opinion? Maybe, but it's written by an attorney in that field. Also, I believe Casey himself has admitted (in audio or video recordings) to the $50k cashback mention in Scotsman (granted, that's not proof it happened).  See also a deal that fell through involving $50k cash back in his first blog post: http://iamfacingforeclosure.com/1/why-i-am-facing-foreclosure/ --Georgeryp 21:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I have consolidated the references to the Scotsman article. Before anyone starts citing NPOV at me, please note that I have added a "fact about an opinion", which the policy clearly states should be included. Captain Nemo III 23:54, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd guess the vandalism warning came for one of: reverting edits required by a policy, adding offtopic/nonencylopedic content, or improperly uploading copyrighted material.  Just so you're aware, your earlier attempt to add linkspam/advertisements for "Haterz blogs" would also be considered vandalism. 209.234.66.97 23:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Umm. I added 3 blogs.  1 was considered a Haterz site, 1 is parody, and 1 was a supporter site for Casey.  I wasn't aware that adding additional sources like that was against wiki policy, but I surely wasn't vandalizing.  I think you'd have a better case if I had added only haterz (whatever that means) sites--Jerichohill817 13:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Adding external links to non-notable sites for the purpose of driving traffic to them is considered spamming. If it's done after the user has received previous warnings - as the usertalk page for your IP indicated - then it violates the vandalism policy.   WP:SPAM offers several suggestions for how to avoid spamming an article.  Probably the most useful is to examine your intentions before you add such a link.  If you're providing a reliable source to support a fact in the article, it's probably okay.  If you're adding links to non-notable blogs with the intention of introducing controversy or sending web visitors to join in the fray, it's best to refrain. Saranary 15:38, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, and for the "Cash Back" column you just added: you do need a reliable source for the amounts and transactions to back up these allegations. Blog sources won't cut it if you're accusing someone of a crime in a Wikipedia article. Saranary 20:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know if particular Cash back constitutes a crime or not. I think it his case it depends on the jurisdiction. However, the only source I know of is the blog and his admissions of whether or not he received cash-back.  If that's not permissible, the I'll understand its deletion and Ill attempt to find better sources --Jerichohill817 20:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jerichohill817 (talk • contribs) 20:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC).
 * The CBS5 article states that receiving more than 3% back on a house is illegal in California, and the amount you added to the table is more than 3% of the purchase price of that house. So the edits do imply that Serin has committed a crime, and they need to be backed up by a reliable source. Saranary 20:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I should add that I do appreciate your efforts to improve this article. Just make sure that the final product complies with Wikipedia standards! Saranary 20:48, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

All 8 loans owner/occupier ?
One of his loans (the Dallas house) was from a Hard Money Lender -- was this really an owner/occupier loan? Captain Nemo III 00:20, 6 April 2007 (UTC) Captain Nemo III 00:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The source is his blog. According to Casey on his blog, he used owner-occupied loans.--Jerichohill817 02:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

What things do we still need a good source for?
If someone would put a list here, I would start working on it item by item.--Jerichohill817 13:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Some I can think of offhand:
 * Any citations which come from blogs - including Casey's and Ramit's - should be replaced by mainstream media sources as these become available.
 * Public records of sales/dates for the table of transactions would be good, too. Saranary 15:43, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Working on the 2nd one right now, I've sourced 2 real estate transactions in the table--149.101.1.120 17:07, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Does this work for a source. It's a photo taken off of casey serin's flickr account showing cash back on some deals

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=242002173&size=l--72.66.63.240 14:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * No, Flickr is not a reliable source for the same reason that Usenet isn't. You can't prove who took the pictures or even that what's written on the whiteboard was accurate.  If the photo were taken from a news article and the figures had been independently confirmed by a mainstream news organization, it might meet the WP:RS standards.  209.234.66.97 16:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Style and Tone
I noticed that several contributors have recently tried to insert sentences along the lines of "He lied!" or "He's a criminal!" or "He's a bad man!" Others have devoted their efforts to changing the existing wording to be more censuring, threatening, or shocking, and justifying it by saying, "This is okay, because [source] used that word to describe it."

I get the feeling that you're angry and frustrated that he hasn't been charged yet. Okay. Lots of people are, including me. I know it's personally satisfying, thinking that you're striking a blow FOR GREAT JUSTICE by doing this, but your clever plan can't help but backfire. Every single biased, misquoted, or loosely cited statement ultimately reduces the credibility of this article.

If Serin's as bad as you think, that will shine through in the verifiable facts. You don't HAVE to label him a criminal/fraudster/cheat/liar, or his "partners" bogus/negligent/incompetent. The readers aren't stupid, and they can figure this out without you leading them by the hand. 129.186.205.84 22:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * For my role, I was just quoting the source (ie. Scotsman, USATODAY) which contained phrases like "lied on loans" I'm still kind of new to the whole editing thing, and while I am A/F with the Serin situation, I'm also not trying to do disrespect to the wiki.  In fact, this wiki was in REALLY bad shape before Saranary and I really started cleaning it up.  I've added a whole slew of references. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jerichohill817 (talk • contribs) 12:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

abcrealestate links
Though it's great to attempt to source an article as much as possible, I'm not sure what value the abcrealestate links have in terms of "verification." They do verify some transaction history, but they don't verify who purchased the home. Zillow or any number of other commercial websites could verify recent transactions. I don't think their was anything nefarious about choosing abcrealestate as the source, but my point is that I'm not sure if it's worth bothering to verify a value if it's not verifying the purchaser and/or seller. OhNo itsJamie Talk 02:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * At the worst, it does exactly what you say. At best, it corroborates information that Serin has listed on his blog.  We can't get the titles or mortgage papers in publicly available documents.  We wanted to source the table.  I *have* found the foreclosure notice for one property in a public record...so thats helpful...the table is well, a very big work in progress.--Jerichohill817 18:47, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I resolved two date descrepancies between the article's table and the dates given on ABC (difference was relatively small - always within the same month) by siding with the ABC numbers. Were these just typos or did the dates in the table come from another source? Casey himself? Also, the ABC link for 8256 Calla Way actually links to 8289 Calla Way, I'm not sure which is the correct street number --Georgeryp 09:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I've added links to the table from the Assessor's offices of the jurisdictions where the property resides.. The Assesor can show valuation and ownership.  The commercial links of REABC and ZIllow show transactional data.  Together, I think they make a very strongly sourced table.  Thoughts?  I've got a few more to go.  I also haven't found a sell price for Sonora Ave yet--Jerichohill817 15:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Removal of personality, piercing the corporate veil
It seems like this article has been extremely watered down lately. Before there was more information about his personality that was *not* speculation, like his use of catchphrases and his hyper-optimistic personality, his delight in eating out at Jamba Juice, etc. It's notable because it's part of his schtick and notoriety as a web phenomenon. There was also information about his seeking a corporation and warnings about not doing that due to the risk of piercing the corporate veil, and lo, he actually did start a shell corporation to hide his personal debt. Can we put this informating back in? Cnadolski 16:13, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If by "watered down," you mean "the article was stripped to what could be reliably sourced," then yes, this article has to follow policy just like every other biography. The fact that he's a "web phenomenon" cannot and does not justify the inclusion of poorly-sourced information or trivia. FCYTravis 19:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

User:Saranary's edits
The edits to the article by Saranary, in many cases, either misrepresent the source (for example claiming the the Voice of San Diego article states that the bought the properties over a few months and this did not affect his credit score, while the actual article does not mention credit score and it refers to days, not months). Saranary appears to also delete relevant sourced information under the guise of NPOV -- however, since this material is properly sourced, it is not NPOV. In Saranay's recent "reminder to editors", she appears to sound like a WP admin. Captain Nemo III 18:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for sharing your concerns here. I added the section on Wikipedia policies to the top of this talk page because these issues have been repeatedly raised throughout this discussion page over the past month or two.  It's much easier for new editors to locate the links to these policies if they're in a single section, rather than scattered throughout the remaining 29.
 * As for the article edits you mention here, I believe that many of the recent alterations to the article have used biased wording in an attempt to imply that Serin is guilty of criminal activity without actually saying so, or to make his story sound more sensational. Specifically:
 * My edit to the sentence on the Voice of San Diego said substantially the same thing as the original; that the properties were purchased in a short time span and may not have had time to appear on the banks' radar. I felt that the original was phrased to imply that this was a deliberate choice by Serin, which is why I labeled it POV.  If you prefer, "months" can become "days" or an indeterminate "so quickly," and "verification procedures" substituted for "credit score."  I still believe it is necessary to write this sentence in a way that leaves open the possibility that it was not intentional - at least until Serin is charged with fraud.
 * I believe that by using the phrase "credit score" you have made the article non-factual. The point is that, because the loans were taken out in quick succession, the earlier loans had not appeared on his credit history, so lenders did not have any information to challenge his claimed "owner occupier" status. Captain Nemo III 19:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * We don't know for sure that this is the case, because we don't have access to Serin's credit history. Thus, this supposition cannot be stated as a fact. It's probable, but we need to attribute it to the source which makes the claim. FCYTravis 20:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Is the Voice of San Diego even a reputable source? It looks like an online "alternative news" site, kind of like IndyMedia.org, and I know there have been issues with citing IndyMedia on Wikipedia.209.234.66.97 00:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * By all means, remove the reference to his "credit score" then. I think the reference to his "credit history" is an acceptable substitute.  I agree that we do need to attribute this statement to the Voice, rather than presenting it as an uncontested fact.  Saranary 20:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Capt Nemo: As a matter of style and readability, you might prefer to paraphrase or remove the quotes you added from the Voice article. The owner-occupied status of the houses is already mentioned in the fourth sentence of that paragraph ("He stated that several...").  The quote about the quick purchases/pending loans essentially repeats the previous sentence ("An article in the ...")  Adding these quotes doesn't really add any new information to the paragraph, and seems to give undue weight to one of the less-important/less-respected sources.  Just my $0.02.  Saranary 21:08, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The addition of "personal loans" to the description of his corporate activities read too close to an accusation of fraud (transferring personal to corporate debt) in the wake of the previous discussion about piercing the corporate veil. Since this was a loan taken out to set up a business venture, your insistence upon labeling it a personal loan seems odd.
 * My reversion of this change was unintended Captain Nemo III 19:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "Case study" vs "Case study of mortgage fraud." This was, in my opinion, the least questionable edit, and because the "fraud" allegation comes from Simpson I don't have a big problem with it.  In the context of the other recent changes, it seemed intended to drive home the point that he is guilty, guilty, guilty of a crime.
 * The point is, he may be guilty, but Wikipedia is not a forum for meting out internet justice. When he's charged, his actions can be labeled criminal without violating the NPOV policy. Saranary 18:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that assertions of guilt should not appear in WP without a guilty plea or verdict. However, that should not stop the article including facts that might lead a reader to make such a judgment (providing the facts are reliably sourced and are presented in a neutral manner). We should be careful to not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Captain Nemo III 19:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You're quite right. However, we do have to be very cautious about the language those facts are couched in, especially because Serin is a living person.Saranary 20:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Also bear in mind, he is not facing criminal charges of any sort. It is gossip and speculation to to even mention fraud or criminal activity.  As far as we know, the companies he has dealt with haven't pursued charges.  Talking about him being a criminal might be good fun on this discussion page, but does not belong in the article...yet. Also this page is starting to look good and make sense.  Good job to those who have contributed in a proper fashion (which doesn't include me).  Kinda neat to watch this progress. 71.237.92.216 21:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)Me


 * Nemo, it sounds like you're confused about the policies. It's possible for a statement to be sourced (meaning it's verifiable), yet still be biased (meaning it's not npov).  Look at the following example:
 * 85 US troops were killed in Iraq in April 2007.
 * versus,
 * 85 US soldiers were sacrificed in April 2007, in a senseless war over WMDs that never existed.
 * Both sentences are verifiable, but the first shows a neutral point of view and the second doesn't. NPOV is not about proper citation of facts, but more about the way you present them. 209.234.66.97 00:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

admissions of lying
All references to lying have been purged from the text of this article. I realize that WP needs to be careful of libel lawsuits, but surely it would be not only acceptable but also correct to state in the article that he has admitted to overstating his income and misrepresenting his owner-occupier status, as long as no conclusions as to whether is "guilty" of anything? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Captain Nemo III (talk • contribs) 22:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC).
 * As of this morning, the article says both that he purchased the homes with "owner-occupied loans," and that he "claimed projected income" even though he was jobless at the time. It also says that some guy used his plight as a case study of fraudulent practices of misstating income, etc.  Any reader of reasonable intelligence can deduce that something was funny without wikipedia editors shouting, "OMG guyz, he LIEEEED!  Lock him UP!!!"  You know?  129.186.205.84 15:11, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * But to answer your actual question, see the many, many, many discussions of WP:BLP/WP:ATTR/WP:NPOV above. Because this is a bio of someone who's still alive, the standards for supporting negative claims are a lot higher than they would be for other articles.  For neutrality, we have to say "claimed projected income" rather than "lied about income," and "bought with owner-occupied loans" rather than "lied about owner-occupied status."  We can't use internet sources (blogposts, flickr, usenet, youtube, google cache, screencaps) to support anything controversial, because they aren't reliable enough sources.  Blogposts can be edited, pics can be deleted, screencaps can be faked, etc.  Even if he came out and said, "Yep, I lied" in a newspaper interview, we'd still have to qualify that statement with, "So-and-so reported that Serin said he lied when he claimed projected real-estate investment income on loans.  However, So-and-so claims that it is a standard practice for self-employed/contract workers to claim projected income"
 * My question to you is, why so eager to smear the guy? A lot of the editors, myself included, think he's likely a crook.  But an obviously biased article is going to raise a lot of skepticism about the legit facts of his case. 129.186.205.84 15:36, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It is provably true and NPOV to say that "he has admitted on his blog that he overstated his income and misrepresented his owner-occupier status". According to my reading of WP policies, it is acceptable to use Casey's OWN blog as a source of this.


 * Missing out this information skews the story -- because it makes it look like others are making unjustified attacks on him. Thus, IMHO, the lack of such information is itself non-NPOV.


 * The problem that I see is some people are so concerned about accusations that he may be a crook (which should not be in the article) that they also want to leave out relevant, sourced information that shows him in a negative light.I'm not trying to get conclusions that "Casey lied" in the article, I'm not trying to "smear the guy" (your accusations of such are straw man arguments) -- I'm just trying to get the facts into the article -- all the facts Captain Nemo III 15:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia does not necessarily want all the facts. What we want is a sourced, verifiable biography. That's the goal. Not a compendium of Serin's sordid financial history. FCYTravis 16:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Serin's "sordid financial history" is the primary reason that he is notable. Hence the information is relevant (as well as being sourced, and verifiable). Captain Nemo III 18:06, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * His sordid financial history is already detailed in the article, though. What he says and does as a blogger is not as relevant as what his does as a speculator, imho.  129.186.205.84 18:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Nemo, I'm saying that the article ALREADY contains the basic facts that you're so eager to include: that he didn't claim his actual income, and that he applied for multiple owner-occupied loans. Those are facts that paint him in a pretty negative light, and readers can draw their own conclusions from them.
 * No, it doesn't. The article states that he had quit his job, but there all kinds of scenarios in which his claimed income could still be correct. Since he admitted that he over-stated his income, I don't see a problem with including this. Captain Nemo III 18:06, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * My problems with is are (1) he may have thought at the time that he would be able generate that income from his investments and only later decided it was an over-statement, and (2) the real meat of this article is in the things he did to qualify for financing. Admitting to lying/misstatement in his blog isn't as interesting, and as I said before, any reader with two functioning brain cells will be able to figure it out that he did from the verifiable facts. 129.186.205.84 18:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Why is the meat of the article only what he did to get the loans? If this were above board and 100% legit, it would not be interesting or notable. Anyway, how about this: "Later, Casey admitted that he had overstated his income on the applications"? It shows the time difference between the application and the admission. Captain Nemo III 21:13, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If I could interrupt your discussion - I think that the consensus is that Serin is, and will remain, more notable for his unsuccessful real estate dealings than for his blogging. The articles that feature him overwhelmingly discuss his failings as an investor, rather than his penchant for creating "sweet media."   The details of his shady loans already appear in the article.   There's no mention of critics, law enforcement, or lenders "unjustifiably attacking" him, as you said above.  Given those three conditions, I guess I'm having a hard time seeing how his own words could indict him any more than his actions already do.    How do you feel an admission would improve the article? 209.234.66.97 23:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * But what actions? Taking out 8 loans is not illegal, using stated-income mortgages is not illegal, and I doubt that he can be held responsible for the delays in credit records being updated. I keep being told that readers will make the inference, but they cannot if relevant information is stripped out. Even the context of the Scotsman article was earlier removed, making it appear irrelevant -- it became, to paraphrase: "Casey is discussed in some random article" -- why should the reader go and read that without a clue as to why the article is interesting? As to an "admission" that is a loaded word. I am not looking for an "I am guilty" quote to be included. There is a difference between "I misrepresented" and "I am guilty". Readers can draw inferences from "I misrepresented", but they cannot from silence.  Captain Nemo III 23:48, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Taking out 8 loans as owner-occupier is fraudulent. Applying for a lot of loans in a few days may be legal, but if the practical effect is that they don't show up on a credit report, that's fishy.  Claiming income while jobless may be legal, but it also sets off alarm bells.  Taken all together, these actions paint a picture of a guy who was trying (intentionally or not) to game the system.
 * As an aside, I came upon this article before I even saw IaFF.com. With no particular expertise in the mortgage industry, I could tell that what he had done was actionable.   209.234.66.97 01:48, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Another note: I don't agree with your assertion that his notability is from his real-estate dealings and not his blogging. I suspect there are many people (10s, 100s, 1000s, who knows?) in a similar position to Casey. What distinguishes Casey from those others is his blog and his openness about his actions. Anyway, here is a hypothetical analogy for you: imaging the OJ Simpson starts a blog and admits to the killings on that blog -- would you put that admission on the article about him? Assume that the blog is verified as his writings. Captain Nemo III 01:11, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * No, I wouldn't cite OJ's hypothetical blog confession in his article. The problem is that even if we could prove it was his blog, we couldn't establish that he was telling the truth in it.  OJ could use any of these classic excuses from frantically backpedalling bloggers:
 * "My blog was hacked! That wasn't me!"
 * "[My confession] was just a figure of speech. I wasn't actually saying I killed them."
 * "This was a social experiment/prank/hoax, and you all fell for it. Big time."
 * "I was drunk/high/grieving at the time, and had no idea what I was writing."
 * Or he could simply delete the offending entry and leave the article with a bad link.
 * Now if he chose to write his confession in a book, that would be an excellent source. We could assume that the publisher had done due diligence to establish that Simpson was the author, and that he was in his right mind, and that he understood the implications of his confession, and that the story matched the facts.  As an extra bonus, the book couldn't just *disappear* from libraries if OJ later had a change of heart.
 * PS. It's quite possible that Casey will eventually become better known as a blogger or speaker rather than a speculator.  I don't think he's there yet, though. Most of the cited articles describe him as an investor or flipper, and stick to discussing his adventures in real estate.  209.234.66.97 01:48, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You say that you're not trying to smear or accuse Serin in the article, and I'll believe you. However, your recent edits/reverts and angry attacks on editors who've disagreed with you, both in the comments page and the summaries, do give the impression that you have a stronger-than-usual desire to push a particular point of view.  129.186.205.84 16:47, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * No, I'm just trying to prevent the sanitization of the article in such a way that relevant, sourced information is omitted. Captain Nemo III 18:06, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If it's all about the integrity of the article, why take swipes at the other editors? Everyone here is trying to help build a good article.   Assume good faith and  chill out. 129.186.205.84 18:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * This isn't an NPOV problem; it's about verifiability and reliability of sources. We had a discussion of this topic when JerichoHill was building the table of transactions a few weeks ago.  He originally included a column of "Cash Back at Closing," but removed it because the only sources for the figures were Serin's own blog and a photo.  Since the table was implicitly accusing Serin of committing a crime by taking more than 3% of the house's value, it was clear that these weren't good enough sources for Wikipedia.  However, the figure that appeared in the Scotsman Guide and the 3% figure from the local newscast could remain in the article, because it was clear that someone else was making the claim that he committed the crime.
 * Similarly, when you add "Serin's blog says he lied on his apps," you're trying to establish that he intended to commit a crime when he wrote the loan applications. If you're using Wikipedia to accuse him of a crime, you need a more reliable source than his own blog - perhaps, "Serin admitted on the witness stand..."  Saranary 17:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You are mis-representing what I wanted to add. I did not suggest using the word "lied", but rather to quote his own words exactly: "misrepresented" and "over-stated". Were his actions criminal? I don't know, nor am I making any claims about its legality. Captain Nemo III 18:06, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You titled this section "admissions of lying" and opened by complaining that "all references to lying have been purged." Your summary asks "why no descriptions of Casey's lies?"  129.186.205.84 18:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Nemo, check and mate...every new/modified argument you make only serves to show you're a hater, not a fact finder. Say uncle. 71.237.92.216 20:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Only in your mind. Why is it that you and others can't read that I have suggested quoting Serin's own words, not using the word "lying"? What happened to assuming good faith? Your point above is pure ad-hominem and just goes to show what I have been trying to point out: which is that some editors here are not interested in facts if they show Casey in a bad light. You and 129.186.205.84 keep claiming that I want to put "Casey lied" in the article, yet if  actually read what I proposed for inclusion, it was no such thing. Yes, I did lead with a title that would be provocative -- in order to generate a discussion, but it seems that some people are not interested in debating, only in presenting the same tired arguments over over, while attempting to mis-represent my proposal and accuse me in a fashion that I am asked to not do to others. Captain Nemo III 21:13, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Nemo, check and mate...every new/modified argument you make only serves to show you're a hater, not a fact finder. Say uncle. 71.237.92.216 20:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 209.234.66.97 I really don't know what else to say. I've been mis-represented, the recipient of ad-hominen claims. Just as I keep reading that readers of this article can make inferences based on what they read, I make inferences based on the responses to my postings.  Captain Nemo III 22:37, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Captain Nemo III, besides the other reasons listed above, we've been trying to move away from using IaFF as a source. Notice that we're down to 6 or 7 citations from his blog, compared to 20+ last month. Part of the reason is simply that more diverse perspectives exist, like news stories from national papers. The other reason is that Serin sometimes exaggerates his situation and posts flamebait in order to attract more publicity and web traffic. It's better to stick with impartial third-party sources, because they have more credibility than Serin himself. 209.234.66.97 22:03, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, that is an argument I can respect. In fact, I have wondered what will become of this article if IAFF goes dark. Captain Nemo III 22:37, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Apologies. I did mean to point out that you do seem to have a bias and I did poke a bit of fun.  I thought a bit of that was OK on this page.  About the only contributions I've made is to try to keep people from jumping to conclusions and I don't think I said you said ,"Casey lied".  As for your question of what will happen when IAFF goes dark...this whole thing will fade out.  Casey is small potatos.  In terms of mis-using credit and losing money, he may be beyond the average, but not an incredible amount.  All said, his losses may be substantially less than $300,000.  Lastly, he didn't even do anything to lose that money, his timing in his venture was just unfortunate for him.  I know people who have done exactly what he did (and worse) and things worked out great for them.  Also there are many, many more notable people who have lost much more money.  Casey won't even be a footnote 5 years from now.71.237.92.216 00:20, 28 April 2007 (UTC)Ptr —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.237.92.216 (talk) 00:19, 28 April 2007 (UTC).
 * I doubt it will be 5 years. More like 5 months before he sinks into obscurity. As I posted earlier, I think his notability is not due to his real-estate failures, but rather his blogging about his predicament and his willingness to talk to reporters. At some point, he will realize that it would be better to shut up and he will disappear from the public view. Captain Nemo III 04:16, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 209.234.66.97, As has been pointed out to me earlier, it is not proper to edit other people comments on the discussion page...STOP DOING IT.  Also please don't send me anymore of your surmonizing personal messages.  Specifically, the term Hater is an appropriate usage for discussion amoungst Casey observers as it is a theme of his blog.  If you are so thin skinned, please "Change the channel" so to speak.71.237.92.216 16:52, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I haven't edited or deleted anyone's comments. I notice from the history of the talk page that you have removed four of my replies, and in one case replaced the missing comment with your own.  (These would be edits #126891204, at 17:08, 29 April 2007, and #126888182, at 16:52, 29 April 2007.)  I apologize that I offended you by sending you a message on your usertalk page.  You're free to delete it.  209.234.66.97 22:19, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Casey as a Victim/US viewpoint
We have had endless discussions of how not to say "Casey is guilty". I was wondering if there are sources that might show an alternative view: Casey as a victim of others.

Also, just a note for those who say "anyone reading the article would conclude that Casey is guilty" -- I believe that this is a very US-centric viewpoint. People from other countries probably know nothing about the process of applying for mortgages in the US. Thus I believe that reliable sources who comment on his culpability should be cited, in line with the NPOV policy of asserting "facts about opinions". What's more, following the NPOV policy, we should state contrasting opinions, if people holding such contrasting opinions represent a significant minority or are reliable sources. Captain Nemo III 00:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think is a very good thing to do.--149.101.1.127 15:26, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * If your real concern is that people from other countries won't understand how mortgages work in the US, we can accomplish the same thing by wikifying the words mortgage and foreclosure in the article. We can add wikilinks to other potentially-confusing lending jargon as well. 129.186.205.84 19:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The mortgage loan article contains a good summary of types of mortgages, typical terms and conditions, the steps taken to secure a loan, and mention of the specifics of US/UK/Sharia lending laws. 129.186.205.84 19:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed the reference to an FBI agents opinion about what is a crime. The agent said nothing about Casey and therefore is not relevant to this article. You are trying to insinuate a crime by citing an irrelevant quote. This tactic was covered in great detail above, read the section addressing freddie mac article cited in the same fashion.71.237.92.216 19:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Employment
The article has stated that he is unemployed. Now it states that he is working on a book. I don't think either is appropriate. At best the book deal should be reported as a claim made by Serin. But I think that his true situation is that he is self-employed, and is earning money from his blog. Perhaps there is a book deal in the works also, but personally, I am skeptical about this. Captain Nemo III 23:43, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "As reported by his blog," he's pursuing a book contract. If you have a reliable source which contradicts that, let's see it. We can't say that "he's self-employed and earning money from his blog" unless there is a reliable source reporting that. FCYTravis 01:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * So... we can rely on his blog for his claim about a book contract, but not for his claims of income from the blog? The present wording about the book contract could be read to make an absolute statement about the book contract -- it's not clear that the "as reported on his blog" applies to the book contract. In any case, the 2 (book contract and self-employment) are not mutually exclusive. The presence of ads such as Google ads would seem to support some level of income from the blog and as such, he would qualify as self-employed (I don't think there is a minimum level of income required to qualify as self-employed). 71.202.40.194 02:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Blog no longer exists?
Serin's blog has apparently been shut down, which means that any negative/controversial information sourced to it needs to be cited from a reliable source or removed from this article. 209.234.66.97 17:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

How about referencing www.caseypedia.com? It has copies of all the posts from the blog. Why only remove negative information?


 * Unfortunately, as a web site, caseypedia does not qualify under the strict WP:RS guidelines, especially for BLP, which is a higher standard than a normal article. Quite frankly I am sympathetic to getting him off of wikipedia per the recently tightened BLP consensus (see WP:DRV and so will be nominating this for AFD in a few weeks, once Serin successfully (?) vanishes. Calwatch 06:51, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I respectfully disagree. Casey Serin was a very important example of the ongoing Housing Bubble.  It is also incorrect to say that he has vanished, nor is his story complete.  I will vociferiously object to his removal of this entry off of Wikipedia ESPECIALLY after all the time I spent on helping it meet wikipedia standards (JerichoHill).--149.101.1.127 14:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * He's back up at Iamfacingforeclosure.com. Looks like the story continues.  No successful vanishing ...


 * "Why only remove negative information?" Look at the giant yellow box at the top of this page.  It says, "Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous." It's poorly sourced, and so must go.  129.186.205.84 16:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it would have behooved you to look and see just how much is sourced to Serin's blog. As best I can tell, all blog sources were replaced with actual news sources excepting his financial spreadsheet.  So the blog ceasing to exist really doesn't create alot of work.72.66.44.95 12:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Check the date stamps/old versions in the history before getting too snide, there, cowboy. Blog citations weren't removed until the day after I posted the preceding comment. 209.234.66.97 00:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * He's back... (for now?) - http://iamfacingforeclosure.com/238/never-say-never-i-am-facing-foreclosure-is-back   --Georgeryp 15:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Click Fraud
The link to the click fraud presentation was deleted? Why? It was accepted at a conference on internet security issues?

category:irritainment
At the Chicago meetup 2, it was suggested that a number of people's career arcs might profitably be called irritainment. --Ancheta Wis 20:45, 25 August 2007 (UTC) And if the category were placed on the Talk page, then it might not break the editorial policy on living persons? Ancheta Wis —The preceding  signed but undated.

Outdated Information
I went in and updated some information on the foreclosure book. I see there are other references to things that are scheduled to happen in 2007 that will also need to be updated. However, given the sparse recent editing history it sounds like people have lost interest in Casey Serin. Maybe the best thing to do would be to edit the article down to the basic points, and omit the moment-by-monet news updates. SkipSmith (talk) 19:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It's been a year, and the article still has not been updated. I added a tag at the top. SkipSmith (talk) 03:40, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I am slowly updating the article piece-by-piece to reflect the current situation, including changing verb tenses. I'm cleaning up the "haphazard" feel of the article, replacing it with an actual narrative which will include a brief mention of Serin's ultimate fate as of 2009 (divorced, unemployed, living with his parents, and still not officially facing any criminal charges). I will attempt to cite all that is cite-able. 71.247.188.63 (talk) 00:56, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * From early March 2009 until the beginning of June, Serin had a job, and his main duties were to create and maintain a blog for his employer, a realtor. He self-destructed in spectacular fashion and is again unemployed. No citeable sources are known to exist, unfortunately. 71.219.14.46 (talk) 08:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Info about recent activity
I have removed some info about his recent activity, as well as a lengthy table specific real estate values. Looking up records about his investments and his more recent career seems to be a violation of WP:BLPPRIMARY. Unless these sources have been discussed in WP:SECONDARY sources they should be left out of the article. Seriously, WP:BLP is a big deal. Grayfell (talk) 07:00, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

POV issues
The version of this page posted earlier this morning has POV issues that must be addressed; I see that some of the changes have already been made by other Wikipedians while I had this window open. Among them: Saranary 18:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Reference to Pride Industries employment of mentally disabled people. As this information has little to do with Serin's position, and given the POV issues in the Criticisms section, it seems intended to imply that he is also disabled.
 * Criticisms section includes reference to Serin's "Inability to reconcile his purported Christian faith with his actions, particularly his mooching off his family and in-laws."
 * Criticisms section includes reference to "Serin's determination to continue as a real estate investor despite his current abject failure in that field."
 * Criticisms section includes, "Amazingly, Casey believes that Nouveau Riche University is a credible institution if higher learning."

This comment also demonstrates bias: "On March 14, 2007, Serin asked his supporters, most of whom exist entirely in his imagination, to rewrite this Wikipedia article because he felt it was too negative towards him." 129.186.205.84 20:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It is not biased, it as accurate. The only part that might be questioned is the claim that 'most of [his supporters] exist entirely in his imagination', but there appears to be ample evidence on his own blog that it is true... his critics vastly outnumber anyone supporting him.63.174.239.180 21:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * While I believe this to be true, I think it's a good idea under the circumstances to make sure that everything is rock-solid in terms of its sources. If the passage was changed to "Serin asked his readers to rewrite this Wikipedia article...", then that's undisputed, referenced fact - and it says more or less exactly the same thing.  86.151.27.21 21:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)Miguel


 * Let me refer you to the NPOV policy - in particular the sections about fairness of tone, letting the facts speak for themselves, and attributing/substantiating biased statements. Keep in mind that overtly biased presentations are less likely to be accepted by readers.  The outraged moralizing and gratuitous insults that litter this article make me suspect that the principal authors are operating on a personal vendetta, and leave me skeptical of the rest of the content.   The article may or may not be accurate, but it's hard to trust it. 129.186.205.84 22:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I originally added "On March 14, 2007, Serin asked his supporters to rewrite this Wikipedia article because he felt it was too negative towards him." I don't think there should be any dispute as to that, as he said in the post I cited that "the entry is highly skewed toward making [him] look bad." 12.215.162.213 22:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Here the use of "supporters" sets off warning bells to me. "Readers" would be a more neutral construction, as suggested above. 129.186.205.84 22:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

As the principal author of one of the sections of this biog (the one about catchphrases etc.) I agree with the points made above about the importance of maintaining strict neutrality. Since Serin so frequently condemns himself out of his own mouth, I think it is not just pointless but actively counterproductive to introduce flagrant bias - it's far more effective to report the established facts and let readers draw their own conclusions. There are plenty of other forums to sound off about Serin's activities, some of which are listed in the article itself. 86.151.27.21 22:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC) Miguel


 * Here are my suggestions for making the introduction and personal information sections comply with the NPOV and BLP policies. I would change the paragraphs on the main page, but they'd be lost in the ongoing edit war.
 * Casey Serin' (born September 10, 1982) is a blogger and real estate investor who, at the age of 24, became known as the "poster child for everything that went wrong in the real estate boom."  Serin was born in Uzbekistan and emigrated to America in the mid-1990s.  In his early twenties, Serin was a PHP programmer, but decided to leave this job to devote his time to flipping houses. Beginning in October 2005 and continuing through the following year, Serin purchased eight houses in various U.S. states, and then began blogging about the process of facing foreclosure on the properties he was unable to sell.
 * Serin is married, but his wife does not participate in the blog or other publicity. Publicly-available documents filed with [specific office] suggest that she may have participated in some of the real estate transactions (citation needed). They currently live in West Sacramento, California.
 * Comments are, of course, welcome. Saranary 23:17, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * But casey is a failed real estate "investor". I don't see why mentioning that is biased in any way?  Why not just call him what he is... a failed real estate speculator?  He never improved any of his properties, or used them to earn any rental income.  He is a typical speculator/flipper.74.72.196.114 00:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The NPOV page offers this advice about applying pejorative labels to people:
 * ''Let the facts speak for themselves'
 * Karada offered the following advice in the context of the Saddam Hussein article:
 * You won't even need to say he was evil. That is why the article on Hitler does not start with "Hitler was a bad man" — we don't need to, his deeds convict him a thousand times over. We just list the facts of the Holocaust dispassionately, and the voices of the dead cry out afresh in a way that makes name-calling both pointless and unnecessary. Please do the same: list Saddam's crimes, and cite your sources.
 * Remember that readers will probably not take kindly to moralising. If you do not allow the facts to speak for themselves you may alienate readers and turn them against your position.
 * Similarly, if Serin is a "failed" real estate investor, then that should become apparent in a dispassionate and factual account of his career. If authors feel the need to rely on derogatory labels (such as we've seen today) to hammer home their opinion of Serin, then it is their credibility that takes the hit.  Saranary 02:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I would amend that to say that the credibility of the article takes a hit. 129.186.205.84 15:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the current article at 15March2007 8:00am est, is fair and a good compromise, although I really think mentioning Pride Industries employs the mentally disabled can help explain most of Serin's self-destructive behavior, and the very wide mood swings in the tone of his articles.74.72.196.114 11:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The article was still written with a decidedly sensationalistic slant as of  the 8 am edit.  Among the issues that remain are hostile references to Serin's religious practices, marriage, and "personal eccentricies."  Additionally, the mention of Serin's sending on a chain letter at age 14 seems both irrelevant in context and intended to provoke an angry response.  Given the tone of the rest of the article, the inference that Serin has mental disabilities is clearly intended as an insult and not as a possible explanation for his behavior.  129.186.205.84 15:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Casey does POV!! Does that include hot Casey on Nigel action? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.98.209.34 (talk) 23:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC).


 * I can see toning down the hostility, but the chain letter is evidence of his impulsiveness (he says it was a copy and paste thing) and his character (using his father's e-mail account, propagating a Ponzi scheme). Facts should be left alone.  12.215.162.213 00:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * By the date stamp, he was about 14 years old when he sent along the chain letter. It seems to me that a single episode of poor judgement by a young teenager is hardly an indictment of his character as an adult.  You're really stretching to make your case here.  Surely his actions since his real estate adventures started are more relevant?  129.186.205.84 01:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If his attempted Ponzi scheme at the age of 14 were his only felony, you might have a point. But the fact is that he committed mortgage fraud as an adult 8 times. The only reason he stopped at 8 houses is because a lender Googled him while he was trying for his 9th house.  At that point, he tried conning friends of his into giving him cash with a "guaranteed" 24% ROI. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.208.144.67 (talk) 04:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC).
 * I agree. Normally mistakes before 18 years or so should be omitted, but the incident was part of a larger pattern of behavior. I changed my mind. At issue here is the fact that Serin knowingly committed fraud when purchasing the houses. Witht the evidence supplied, it's hard to say for sure that a 14 year old Serin was knowingly committing a crime when he sent that email.  I say it doesn't belong.Snu164 17:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Serin engaged in an obvious illegal activity. It occured on a public source (Usenet) and has been archived by google.  Serin has admitted to engaging in this activity.  Including it in the article where the subject gained "fame" through engaging in a pattern of illegal activities shows no bias or POV conflicts at all.  Should the article about Jesse James (American murderer during the cowboy era) ommit all the crimes he committed before the age of 18?  If Serin's illegal activities were a common but illegal practice, then the fact that Serin "came clean" at the start of government crackdowns on this activity will make Serin a more notable figure 20 years or 100 years from now.  170.148.92.42 12:31, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Usenet posts are not reliable sources, irrespective of archiving. Information based upon Usenet posts is not suitable for a Wikipedia article.  Use only good sources for encyclopaedia articles.  Do not base encyclopaedia articles upon Usenet posts. Uncle G 21:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Read the previous comment. Serin has admitted to engaging in this activity [Ponzi scheme]. That can easily be cited from his blog. So... if we can't use archived Usenet posts as sources, nor can we use quotations from the subject of the article himself, exactly what can we use? Mainstream media will never report on his past activities like this, so what's left? Sheesh. 68.161.76.47 22:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The Biographies of Living Persons Policy is very clear on this question.  Only reliable sources, as per  the Attribution Policy, can be used to corroborate negative claims about a living person.  Blog posts, google caches, Flickr photostreams and Usenet are unreliable sources.  Print sources, television interviews, newspaper articles and the like are acceptable. Saranary 22:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. The Usenet post does not stand alone, and has been corroborated by Serin. Not to say that there may not be other POV issues to clean up.... --Jake 22:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * There are two separate issues here. First, as UncleG points out, blog and Usenet posts are not reliable sources, according to WP:ATTR, and cannot be used to support negative claims about a living person.  The second is that the article does not adhere to NPOV policy.  I swept through once to remove personal attacks and heavily biased language, but there's still a long way to go to make this article compliant.  Saranary 22:53, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I see that you already responded on the AfD page. Apologies!  Saranary 22:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * No worries. And thanks for all the help with this page. Jake 23:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I can verify that most of the home purchases occurred using LexisNexis (in the area(s) that are online), but I'm not sure how to cite them, and they're not publicly accessible. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.215.162.213 (talk) 00:28, 17 March 2007 (UTC).

~You should also stop calling his activities illegal. He has never been charged or convicted and as such you have no clue as to whether or not his activities rose to a criminal level. Like calling his actions on loan Apps criminal fraud, when at this time they are intentional inaccuracies...huge difference.
 * Uhh... if someone goes out and commits eight murders, then goes back home, and blogs about it to the whole world with verifiable proof that the acts were done, is that not illegal because he hasn't been charged or convicted yet? Now replace "murder" with "mortgage fraud", and you've got Casey Serin. I think you're confusing the concept of "illegal" and the concept of "innocence". Serin has verifiably committed illegal/criminal acts. County records in multiple states support this, as do Serin's own words. He is still innocent of these acts because he hasn't been charged. Yet. 68.161.76.47 16:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Again, you have no clue as to whether or not his actions rise to the level of criminal activity. Mis-stating income is probably not a criminal offense.  You see, there are at least two parties involved in each of those transactions.  The other side has responsibilty also.  If his word was good enough for them then it was their right, priviledge, choice, option or choose your own word to accept his declaration.  Same with any of Casey's other lies.  So unless you are privi to some special knowledge I'll say again, you don't know he committed a crime because he lied.  It was a contract and it may break that contract...so what.  Those stupid companies should have been more responsible also. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.9.124.59 (talk) 02:02, 18 March 2007 (UTC).
 * Read the article on Mortgage fraud. Casey committed occupancy fraud, employment/income fraud, cash-back fraud, and most likely appraisal fraud as well. Not just once, but upwards of eight times. The definitions of those crimes are right there on the page -- I don't understand why you think the illegality of the acts doesn't apply to Casey. Loan documents have a disclaimer about the borrower understanding the potential penalties for lying. Casey signed the documents after knowingly lying multiple times. That is illegal, whether or not he's been charged yet. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure many borrowers over the past few years engaged in one or more of the previous frauds too, without being noticed or charged. That doesn't make the act any less illegal. 68.161.76.47 04:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * "It takes two to lie, Marge. One to lie and one to listen." - Homer Simpson —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.208.144.67 (talk) 14:57, 18 March 2007 (UTC).
 * Like I said, you don't know whether or not his activities rise to a criminal level. The companies he was working with knew or should have known that without requiring verification the claims people made were not likely to be accurate.  As such their acceptance of what he said is up to them, not you and not a DA or anyone else, it is between the two parties.  So if they accepted his view of what his income was, based on whatever method Casey choose, that was their choice.  You have no clue as to whether or not it is a crime and won't until he is both charged and convicted.  Cash back fraud would require conspiracy with all parties involved, including the appraiser, no proof of that.  Occupancy violation of a contract has a contractual remedy, not legal.  You can't just make up BS and say it is criminal. Thankfully,it doesn't work that way or people like you would ruin this Country trying to put everyone in jail. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.9.124.59 (talk) 05:19, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

I suppose the only way to solve the question of Casey's actions being illega would be to reach out to each of the county Sherriffs in the counties where Casey is alleged to commit fraud, and ask them what to they think about an Uzbeki immigrant buying property with loans based on false statements. Also mention his taking the cash back from these loans, and then abandoning the properties to foreclosure, resulting in neighborhood blight, homeless squatting (according to Casey), and Casey's bragging about his getting away with it on the internet. See what the Sherriffs and district attorneys from each county and state feel about it. Point them to Casey's website, and mention that you want to know what they think about it, and mention you'll also go to the local media with their answer. You can find the Sheriffs from each county on Wikipedia. Then maybe we can get an answer on whether Casey committed fraud or not. 170.148.10.43 17:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If and when Serin's convicted, then Wikipedia can describe his actions as unequivocally illegal. Until then, refrain from speculating in the article about the nature of and motivation for his alleged actions.  Just provide the facts that are backed by acceptable sources.  Saranary 19:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, why do you assume that an "Uzbeki immigrant"'s case should be treated any differently than that of a US citizen? Attacks based on Serin's original nationality and ethnic background are unacceptable for Wikipedia.  (Note:  an earlier version of the article contained reference to Serin's becoming a US citizen at age 18 or 19.)  Saranary 20:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * According to the Patriot Act, a foreigner can be held without charges, whereas a US citizen is still guaranteed some rights; so yes, Casey's being an Uzbeki immigrant does matter. As for his becoming a US Citizen, please site a reputable source as your reference, or do not include it.  Let's all try to follow Wikipedia's policies, shall we?  ;-)170.148.10.43 14:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess it is a hard concept for people who like to pre-judge other people. The opinion of the sheriffs office is not important either.  Even if they thought it might be illegal he would still be entitled to a trial before it is found that he committed illegal acts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.9.124.59 (talk) 21:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC).