Talk:Cassandra Claire/Archive 1

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 * I am officially dismayed by humanity. A Wikipedia entry on CC is just...wrong.  Thephotoman 04:34, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but you're just not going to get a neutral entry on Cassandra Claire. Too highly charged. Stick to the bare facts or delete. And leave off commentary about what "detractors say" and "supporters say" or you'll end up with a flame war in the edits on the entry.


 * Are you saying people care more about Cassandra Claire then they do about real issues like the election and the war in Iraq? How come we're allowed to have pages on real contentious issues, but not on controversial people who write stories in the Internet?
 * For the record, I care more about Cassandra Claire than I do about real issues like the election and the war in Iraq. But I still think we should have a page about her. She wrote the first fanfic I ever read, and is very very cool (imho). --drak2 23:33, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay, why do we have a page for a fanfiction author? Even though CC probably didn't write it herself, there is no way this is going to be neutral.  We can't recognize every single good fanfic author, even if she is that good.  [And I don't know; I rarely read fanfiction.] SujinYH 14:39, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't see why this page cant be NPOV. I agree that we cant recognize every single good fanfic author, but CC is important in the history of HP Fanfic. The article has already been VfD'd, and it was decided that it should be kept. It's simply a case of trying to NPOV the article. Which parts do people not like then? --drak2 15:18, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have reversed the edits made yesterday as much of the content was actionable libel. I have also contacted Cassandra Claire's attorney and asked her to keep an eye on this page.

Hi - this is Heidi, Cassie's attorney - I didn't get an email from the person who posted above me, but I can be reached at heidi @ heidi8.com (I'm traveling this month, so that's the best way to catch me). Yes, the posts that an individual or group of individuals persists in posting here are actionable libel, and they must stop. Examples of defamatory statements in the entry include things like "It would take Cassandra Claire four years to fix her disclaimers on her stories", which is a clear lie, given the existence of this entry in the WayBack Machine -. I am cheered that earlier claims that no sourcing had been done by Cassie in her fic have now been corrected to read "The disclaimer did not attribute an author and cited the wrong books" - I wonder if the person posting here on Wikipedia finally read my post at the Fanthropology LJ, where I clearly pointed out that no plagiarism had taken place because Cassie had never said that the scene was original to her. We have been having this argument for well over four years now, and it has to stop because it has gone beyond any actual discussion, if such a thing ever existed, and is now a personal vendetta by a person or persons against Cassie. She is not a plagiarist - she is a young woman who did not cite a book that she admitted to incorporating material from, with chapter and verse when she posted a fanfic in December of 2000. Stop posting defamatory accusations that she plagiarised, or we'll have to take this into the Wiki dispute zone, per the site's Terms, and that sort of thing can get those who defame banned from Wiki.

CC
I really don't think Cassandra Claire should be honored with a Wiki edition. It's been proven over and over that she had plagiarised from Buffy the Vampire Slayer (I've written to the writers of Buffy and they don't appreciate that she called their writings her own).

Heidi, you know as well as I do that Cassandra Claire plagiarized. That's why you created FictionAlley. It isn't just one isolated incident. It was the repeated use of Buffy lines.

There are decent writers on FictionAlley who use their own creativity with the characters and Cassandra Claire has repeatedly admitted in public rooms that she keeps a stash of her favorite lines as she's writing a fanfiction novel.

She's an awful writer with no sense of creativity. -

A Wikipedia page is not an honor. It does not announce whether you are a good or bad writer. It is for facts, supported by links. If you want the page deleted, join Wiki and list the page for deletion. Meanwhile we do not need to know that a fanfiction writer's fans or friends or whatever bought her an Ipod anymore than we need to know that her mommy bought her a trike.

-

Michela, you are a defamer and a liar and I am bringing this into Wiki's dispute area. She did not plagiarize anything, and you still, four years on, don't seem to know the definition of the word. - Heidi_Eight (er, I am new to Wiki and do not know how to sign as logged in. Sorry!). I am going to investigate the Criteria_for_speedy_deletion, because it's the only way to stop Michela's vandalism.

Was the last comment Heidi?

I'm not sure who this Michela person is but many people who are not Cassandra Claire's friends anymore have said that she's plagiarized lots of times. Why do you think we're still talking about her plagiarism 4 years on?

I used to read her stories and wonder how she churned out nearly 100 pages a week and when I found out she used lines from other sources and even an entire passage from a book, it soured my opinion of her. I used to think she was really clever and creative. Compared to others, A/S and others would take a long time to write their stories (and a long time to get even 50 pages on the net). At least their writing is decent and it shows. CC is only catering to her so-called "adoring public" and going by quantity not quality.

Heidi, there are so many people who state that she did this. I don't know why you're defending her. I've looked at her stories (I had a friend who had a Buffy quote book and she directed me to the story links and all the Buffy quotes noted in her book were used in CC's stories). I even read the so called book that Cassandra Claire had lifted the passage from (I had saved her chapter from FanFiction.net) and could not believe that she had lifted the passage so blatantly.

I hope this wikipedia entry gets deleted.

We all hope this entry gets deleted. Wiki is for facts that are of interest to the public, supported by links. Not for fandomers to hash out their issues. The only reason the page was created was because of the Very Secret Diaries, which this discussion has not even touched on. Instead it has become a place for competing rants about her Harry Potter fanfiction, which no one cares about.

This is an encyclopedia, not a place for wank. The only reasons Wikipedians voted to keep this article was because the Very Secret Diaries were deemed of interest like "All Your Base Are Belong to Us" and other net memes. None of this vandalism even has had to do with the VSDs. This whole thing is ridiculous.

Those of you who are criticizing Cassie - can any of you actually cite to anything you're claiming? If not then it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia.

-

There was a previously a Wiki vote on whether Cassandra Claire merited a Wikipedia entry. The entry was kept on the basis that The Very Secret Diaries were an internet fad and thus merited inclusion on Wiki, much like All Your Base Are Belong To Us and other notable Net memes. Since the focus of this page was intended to be The Very Secret Diaries, this page is now redirected to the Very Secret Diaries page. Hopefully that will keep the focus on the topic, The Very Secret Diaries and like net memes, and not on a specific fandom persona, which was never the intended focus of the page. - Cylion

-

I could scan my copy of the FF.net edition of Cassandra Claire's chapter that she plagiarized the passage from the book.

I don't know why you're defending her. Better people have left the fandom because of her.

- Why bother to scan it when the chapters are still up, in their original forms, on her yahoogroups? C'mon! You can link! Can't you?

And what's so wrong with defending someone against unsupportable claims made by a chronic liar?

Cassandra_Claire
This page should be deleted and if not, redirected to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Very_Secret_Diaries. The Cassandra Claire page just repeats information already in the VSD page, plus it is a magnet for trollers. Wiki does not generally make vanity pages for individual fanfiction authors and the VSD page seems to supply all information necessary. Last time this came up for vote on Wiki, it was deemed worth including only because of the Very Secret Diaries. If they have their own page it seems unecessary to have one for Cassandra Claire. Cylion 7 July 2005 18:31 (UTC)

--- Heidi - this is B.K. coming here in response to your email.

She is not a plagiarist - she is a young woman who did not cite a book that she admitted to incorporating material from, with chapter and verse when she posted a fanfic in December of 2000.

I'm confused. If she admitted to incorporating the material did she go back and footnote or cite which material came from the book? That would obviously take care of any issues.

Signing
'Would everyone please'' sign their messages? This page might make sense to the people holding their (apparently private) conversation here, but it's near impossible for anyone else to make out who's saying what and when. --Mel Etitis ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 8 July 2005 16:06 (UTC)

For about the zillionth time, it is NOT plagiarism or in anyway problematic to quote lines from something without footnoting them. Terry Pratchett does it in all his books, and the clever reader is supposed to look for them. Therefore, any discussion of CC using Buffy the Vampire Slayer lines throughout her trilogy is entirely ridiculous.

The actual issue was rather more limited. One book, one chapter involved. The facts of that could be easily and shortly presented. However, if this is going to go off on tangents and accusations, I rather think it should be deleted. - NM &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.179.199.204 (talk &bull; contribs) 23:33, 8 July 2005.


 * 1) Still not signing!   Just type four tildes ( ~ after your messages.
 * 2) Why did you place your message here, rather than after the one you were replying to? --Mel Etitis ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 8 July 2005 23:04 (UTC)

Wikipedia on plagiarism:

"Plagiarism refers to the use of another's ideas, information, language, or writing, when done without proper acknowledgment of the original source. Essential to an act of plagiarism is an element of dishonesty in attempting to pass off the plagiarised work as original. Plagiarism is not necessarily the same as copyright infringement, which occurs when one violates copyright law. Like most terms from the area of intellectual property, plagiarism is a concept of the modern age and not really applicable to medieval or ancient works."

One chapter of Pamela Dean's work instead of two, or three, or one and a half, does not make it less of plagiarism than it was. It was put, whole cloth, into a work which had her name down as author. See this portion of the definition: "Essential to an act of plagiarism is an element of dishonesty in attempting to pass off the plagiarised work as original." When you put your name on something as having written it, you're saying it's yours. If you don't say, "it's mine except for this part here, and that part there," you have plagiarized.

That this is even a discussion is astounding. That it's one with a lawyer arguing against the law is sad, if not unexpected. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.136.104.51 (talk &bull; contribs) 01:28, 9 July 2005.


 * Are four tildes really so hard for the squabblers to type? If you're going to contribute to Wikipedia, even if in such an unproductive way, could you have the courtesy to follow Wikipedia custom? Sign your posts on talk pages.  Mel Etitis  ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 9 July 2005 09:07 (UTC)

-

I'd rather not sign my name here so I'll use a number. It's not just one chapter, it's that Cassandra Claire repeatedly admitted to writing multiple chapters using material (Pamela Dean, Josh Whedon, etc) that wasn't hers. Like I said, I was one of her early fans, and loved her writing. That was when I didn't know any better about the above mentioned authors (I had never heard of Pamela Dean before Cassandra Claire nor did I watch Buffy before CC). I hear that she's sold a book to a publishing company. This company should know about Cassandra Claire's plagiarizing history. As a writer and have friends who are published writers, we think Cassandra Claire is a bad influence on people who would like to be writers. We're going to advertise to people not to buy her book as well. 68.0.214.59 01:15, 14 July 2005 (UTC)


 * But I'm afraid that Wikipedia is not an acceptable platform for your campaign. Neutral point of view. --Mel Etitis ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 11:50, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

This page is an archive and should not be modified.