Talk:Caste system in Kerala/Archives/2014/August

The one who edited the article before I did today
Make yourself clear about the following 1.Do you mean to say that Thampis, Unnithans and Valiyathans are not nairs??? Don't tell ME (stress is on me)!!! Then better get your facts right!!!! 2. What do you mean by Lower caste nairs??? nairs like Pillai, kaimal, Menon etc. with titles given by rajas and were serving as Diwans and commanders? Or the so called Veena nairs like Veluthedathu nairs, Chakkala nairs etc.??? 3.Ambalavasis are not considered nair. they are considered..what else Ambalavasis. No Ambalavasi would write in his SSLC book, 'Nairs' in the column specifying caste. And that community is not going to be pleased if you try to bracket them with nairs. 4.What you call oil monger nairs must be Chakkala nairs are fallen nairs enjoying the benefit of being in OBC List. NSS, the premier organisation is one of the most vocal critic of reservation system. In addition, Chakkala Nairs, Velluthedathu nairs etc. have their own community organisations are not members of NSS. And Nairs generally do not have matrimonial alliances with them. 5.Don't you know that their are no indigenous Vaishyas in Kerala caste system?? And what do you mean by Vaishya nairs??? 6.Pulappedy- the system was applicable to any upper caste woman.

I thought a debate would be worthwhile and productive. Pl. everybody, mention the corrections made in the discussion page. I'd corrected (or recorrected) the part about Pulappedy and included some info about so called Fallen nairs. I'd not edited other part of the article. Your article is fine otherwise.... RAMS (10-9-2006)

Hey the basic classification of the article itself is wrong..there is no such thing as kshatriya nairs and vaisya nairs n sudra nairs....not when all nairs were anways considered sudras excepting perhaps a few samanthans....and ambalavasis are indeed nairs...they are also lesser and lower in caste than kiriyathil nairs...read books like travancore state manual which clearly state that ambalavasis are nairs who later started keeping untouchability due to their work in temples....also the article mentions women below the nairs not being allowed to wear blouses...incidentally even namboodiri antherjanams got the right to wear blouses only in 1932 in a conference presided by Parvathy Antherjanam in Guruvayoor...and also ambalavasis were never pushpaka 'brahmins'...incidentally even poonool wearing ambalavasis had a status only equal to the non poonools...they were never included in distribution of alms by rajahs as brahmins..just like some of the kammalans, due to their work in temples, got the poonool right these ambalavasis also got it as a special privelage since they had to clean the steps of the shrine etc..and RAMS as far as i know, the Samanthans ie Thampi Unnithan and Valiathan till about 50 years ago didnt mingle or marry or touch nairs, be they kiriyathil or menons or kaimals or anything...thts y they were called Samanthans...ofcourse they are also nairs, but have been accepted or rather they accepted themselves as nairs only after the coming of the NSS in kerala...you will often hear old people saying 'he isnt a nair...he is an unnithan' etc..basically its all coz of royal descent manu

Hallo Manu You may be right. I don't know. Velu Thampi's father was a Pillai. He inherited the Thampi title from his mother. Remeber it was mid 17th century. And if you read the novels of Cv Raman Pillai like mathanda Varma, dharma Raja etc, you do not find any distinction between so called samanthans and nairs. The nephew of 'Chandrkaran' Pillai is an Unnithan. You get a feeling that in the nobility of Travancore Pillais, Unnithan, Thampis all formed the melange which constituted a Tharavad. In my own Tharavad, all the three existed. I think the father of rahmohan Unnithan the politician is a Pillai. And remember that all these titles for royal progeny existed only in travancore. In Cochin and South malabar, the son of the raja and a nair woman inherited his mother's title, be it menon, nair or kaimal. VK Krishan Menon is the grandson of raja of Kadathanad and son of a 'Nair'. I am not trying to prove or disprove anything. But trying to set facts right as i understand it. I see it as a part of a debate rahre than a statement. Incidentally, if you had not rread, Indulekha and the novels of CV, read them. Cv's novels are considered those with all lakshnams of a novel. And he is still considered one of the greatest novelists ever in malayalam. RAMS (12-09-2006)

I did secure an online copy of marthanda varma...is dharmaraja also available online fr free by any chance? and in english please (cant read malayalam)...if u know the site please temme..thanks...yes i know that royal progeny were indeed nairs only...and i myself believe that samanthans could be considered the upper layer of the nairs only...and as for their being higher than ambalavasis, i guess no women of affluent families would be given in marriage to ambalavasis, considering that till about 150 years back they had no landed areas or wealth on a general basis...

one doubt...thampis are also seen only in travancore???? and whts pillais gotta do with royalty? i always thought that was a title..but i seem to have heard that there is sum similarity between thampis and pillais or sumthin...do u know anything on that? Manu

MANU Thampis are found only in Travancore. Pillais were generally nobles in Travancore. For that very reason they are potential tharavads of royal consorts. eg; ettuveetil pillamar effectively ruled Venad for centuries, leaving the raja a mere figurehead till Marthanda Varma's rule. RAKS (September 13, 2006) Tha Vaniyan Nair or Chakkala Nair are fallen in Nair Caste..but at the time of the formation of the NSS, the above said were tried for getting benefits from the government,to accomplish that purpose, they formed separated Nair sub caste organizations for Vaniyan nair or vattakkad Nair etc. And at that time they demanded for include them in the OBC list for getting small benefits from the government. So NSS not included them in their organization. There are so many Nair sub castes especially in Malabar like Pallichan, Urali and so on are said to be below Vaniyan Nair ,but included in NSS. It is meaningless that to say Kshatriya nairs and sudra nais.This was mainly to create a community which can protect Namboothiris in following their highly conservative customs.Each so called castes was have a job to perform ubder Namboothiri family, then they were called the titles like  kurup,kaimal,pillai, menon, nambiar. Each one has their own job to perform.Then how some of them are inferior nairs and some of them are superior nairs.please refer F W Focett's "Nair's of Malabar". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.217.142.252 (talk) 10:42, 19 August 2014 (UTC)