Talk:Castilian House of Ivrea

Requested move 16 July 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) C LYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE 20:10, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Castilian House of Ivrea → Castilian House of Burgundy – House of Burgundy (Casa de Borgoña) appears the typical term for this dynasty. The person who moved this (DHalps) seems to be under the impression that the previous name means it is a branch of the Capetian House of Burgundy and is thus incorrect, but I believe it is the WP:COMMONNAME for it to be called the House of Burgundy. This name comes from the dynasty's origins in the Free County of Burgundy (Franche-Comté) in the Holy Roman Empire. PikaSamus (talk) 18:52, 16 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:02, 24 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose Google Scholar results do not support claim of WP:COMMONNAME. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:51, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Most of the time it is simply called "The House of Ivrea". To distinguish the part of the house that ruled Castile & Leon, it is referred to as "The Castilian House of Ivrea". Just because a google scholar lists it differently in a family tree does not hold much weight IMO. Many websites and other scholars list it differently. In fact I have seen it as CASA DE BORGOÑA-IVREA before, so therefore it says House of Burgundy-Ivrea. However, Raymond of Burgundy was not even the Count of Burgundy as his other brother was, and then the county passed to his descendants, then to the House of Hohenstaufen from 1190–1231, then to the House of Andechs from 1231-1279, then back to the House of Ivrea from 1279-1130, before it became part of the House of Capet and the House of Burgundy (Capetian).
 * Also on Wikipedia it says House of Ivrea many times on other pages. In fact right here on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Castilian_monarchs
 * One can argue it is called the House of Ivrea and that is its common name.
 * Some other websites:
 * https://www.andalucia.com/history/monarchs-of-castile
 * https://europeanroyalhistory.wordpress.com/tag/kingdom-of-castile/
 * DHalps (talk) 21:26, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The Castilian House of Ivrea is a cadet branch of the House of Ivrea (Anscarids). The main branch ruled the County of Burgundy from the eleventh to fourteenth centuries, so one could argue that the part of the house that actually ruled Burgundy would be referred to this. While the part of the house that ruled Castile would be titled The Castilian House or Ivrea. Wikipedia has had it listed as “The Castilian House of Ivrea” for a long time on many Wikipedia pages as well as the main page - until it was recently changed. I agree that the Castilian House of Ivrea may have been referred to other names, and believe that should be listed on the main page. However I don’t find it correct to rename it as the Castilian House of Burgundy and rename every other Wikipedia page. I’m also worried that this would insinuate that the House of Ivrea may be renamed, and/or may confuse others with the actual House of Burgundy which descended from the House of Capet and ruled the Duchy of Burgundy. Both houses married daughters of Alfonso VI of León and Castile of the Jiménez dynasty too. In fact, Henry, Count of Portugal from the House of Burgundy and the duchy of Burgundy, and Raymond of Burgundy from the House of Ivrea and the County of Burgundy, were cousins as well. Also, Gerberga was married to Adalbert of Italy and then to Henry I, Duke of Burgundy. Her son from her first marriage, Otto-William, became the step-son of Henry I, Duke of Burgundy, and Gerberga and Henry had no children together. Since Henry had no legitimate son of his own, he adopted Otto-William who eventually succeeded him to the Duchy of Burgundy from 1002-1004. This can make things more confusing and complicated for somebody trying to learn about either house, or both houses and their history. Overall, I am only trying to keep the titles the same as they’ve been listed on Wikipedia. I suggest that The Castilian House of Ivrea be also known as The Castilian House of Burgundy, but that it not be changed all over the entire Wikipedia website and on corresponding pages. It is much clearer and concise to have it as it’s been - The Castilian House of Ivrea. Dhalps23 (talk) 20:01, 16 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Support "House of Burgundy" is certainly the common name for the Leonese-Castilian house (e.g. Medieval Iberia encyclopedia). Our categories and lists give it as "Burgundy", dynastic sequence is always Burgundy -> Trastamara, etc.  Ivrea is rarely used in this context.  Differences between the Burgundian houses can be explained in the lede. Walrasiad (talk) 20:46, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. "House of Burgundy" is more common, although how exactly we should disambiguate it is another question. Srnec (talk) 02:19, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject Spain has been notified of this discussion. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:02, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support per nomination. Can confirm I've seen this referred to as "Burgundy" in books and not Ivrea.  SnowFire (talk) 18:22, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom and those above. BD2412  T 04:13, 15 August 2023 (UTC)