Talk:Castles in Great Britain and Ireland

Expansion...
I've given the article a thorough overhaul and expansion. A few points.... Cheers, Hchc2009 (talk) 08:39, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I suspect the name should really be "Castles in the United Kingdom and Ireland", as making a distinction between Northern Ireland and the Republic isn't very meaningful for most of the period concerned.
 * Where possible, I've tried to give examples of the trends, to help the typical wiki reader; that said, this isn't a list article, so not every castle will have got a mention.
 * I suspect I've probably got an unconscious bias towards castles in England, and in particular the south-west (!). I've very deliberately tried to get a good balance of material, particularly where pictures are concerned, but may not have got this quite right. Any specialists in Scottish or Irish castles will no doubt find there's plenty to edit or add.
 * If anyone can find a better picture of a motte and bailey earthwork, or a ringwork, let's use them. I'll admit I was struggling to find a picture with both a motte and a bailey earthwork clearly in it, or a really good ringwork shot!
 * No doubt lots of tidying up etc. will be necessary. I think I've got the references sorted for most of the points - shout if I've missed a reference for something important.


 * I don't know of any really good photos on Wikipedia of ringworks or motte and baileys unfortunately. It's not easy to take a good photo of an earthwork from the ground; if only someone had a helicopter or light aircraft. I know more about English and Welsh castles than Scottish ones, so probably can't help much in any unconscious bias, but Jonathan Oldenbuck is one of the most prolific members of WikiProject Scottish Castles and I think it would be worth asking his opinion in that regard. And as a northerner if I think there's too much about southern castles I'll let you know once I've had a proper look ;-) Nev1 (talk) 22:10, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Conservation
I was thinking about adding something along the lines of the following to the article:

"Of the 108 masonry castles in Wales Cadw, the government body responsible for preserving historic monuments in the country, has 42 directly under its care and has provided funding for 17 more. Most of the rest are privately owned."

My line of thinking was that it might be useful to give some figures for sites under state care. Preferably figures for England, Ireland, and Scotland would have to be added to give balance to the Welsh figures (assuming you think this kind of material is worth including in the first place). castlewales.com has essays by reliable sources and this particular one is by a representative of Cadw. Nev1 (talk) 20:27, 18 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Sounds a good plan to me - these sorts of figures I think are particularly useful for non-Brits, as it gives a sense of scale that we sometimes take for granted as residents! Hchc2009 (talk) 06:00, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Article name
This article has been recently renamed from "Castles in the United Kingdom and Ireland" to "Castles in Great Britain and Ireland" without discussion. That seems slightly odd, as some people could interpret it as excluding Northern Ireland (which isn't the intention). The old name seems better to me, or even "Castles in the British Isles", but I know that terminology relating to Ireland is a sensitive issue, so what do others think? --  Dr Greg   talk  18:34, 19 April 2011 (UTC)


 * The related discussion is here. I don't think there is a perfect article title, each suggestion has its pros and cons, but this one seems to do the job. Nev1 (talk) 18:41, 19 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Think that the previous title was better, as per Dr Greg, though would go with the "Castles in the British Isles" title. If you think that there was no such thing as Ireland/Republic of Ireland then there was no Great Britain in the timeframe we are talking about. Keith D (talk) 21:53, 19 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Great Britain is a geographic term - it does not go into and out of existence as a frame of reference in the same way states do. It would be absurd to create an article like Foreign policy of England if it was intended to go beyond 1707, but titles like Great Britain in the Ice Age are perfectly fine. And using 'British Isles' is a non-starter, it would just be the beginning of a long round of screaming and edit warring (if not right now then definitely once one of them notices it on their systematic searches for the term), so on a topic like this where their preferred alternative of 'GB&I' actually makes sense, it's just not worth the hassle. Per WP:TITLE, it's frankly beyond obvious to me that an article like this, which goes all the way back to 1066, should not have a title which suggests it is tied to an era which only refers to 1707 and beyond. The 'other islands' issue aside, I'm frankly amazed people even have an issue with it. I find the idea that readers are going to think it excludes NI as completely unbelievable frankly, on all levels of logic and sense. MickMacNee (talk) 10:09, 20 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I prefer the current name to UK and I, though personally I would favour "Britain and Ireland". I tend to see "Britain" as the geographic name for an island while "Great Britain" is a more political term. I may be wrong. Anyway, we have Tower houses in Britain and Ireland. The two should match whichever name is chosen. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 18:10, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you are wrong. I can only think of the Olympics as a wide usage of GB non-geographicaly, whereas Britain is pretty much a synonym of the UK, and in cases where it's not, the intended meaning is often....the island called Great Britain. MickMacNee (talk) 19:10, 21 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Should be moved to Castles in the British Isles, if it's gonna include both islands. GoodDay (talk) 00:08, 22 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Which of the alternatives covers all of the five countries and associated islands? (specifically: as the article ranges from 1066 to the present day it may be inappropriate to separate Ireland into NI and Eire when discussing those time periods prior to NI's existence?)Chaosdruid (talk) 00:53, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Article size
I've just started a copyedit on the article and the first thing I noticed is that it contains 15,000 words of readable prose. The Wikipedia policy guideline suggests that 10,000 is the top word count before readability/browser performance become issues. I'd therefore suggest a split in to "Castles of England, Scotland & Wales" and "Castles of Ireland" or something similar, with relevant redirects. Best ► Philg88 ◄ star.png 07:11, 22 April 2011 (UTC)


 * What do others feel about the length? It did grow a bit when I wrote it, but if we're looking at a split, I'd like to get full consensus before commencing on the work! :) Hchc2009 (talk) 16:22, 22 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Yep, a split is due. GoodDay (talk) 16:27, 22 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I am not keen on a split because this forms a coherent group with interlinked histories and developments. The article stands at 14,000 words which while long is not unmanageable. Nev1 (talk) 17:40, 22 April 2011 (UTC)


 * If we can keep it together, it makes for an easier narrative in the article. Splitting by geography, whilst not impossible, is a pain, because it requires explaining what happens in adjacent regions all the time. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:18, 22 April 2011 (UTC)


 * 5 pages of bibliography, notes and references??? and 2.5 of those are just the bibliography, this seems a rather large amount.

I have looked at the article and it is (under the 400kb limit), has 11 pages of readable prose (less than half the "must split" 30 limit) and has many sections with links to "Main" articles.

It is apparent that the article does need to be of significant length and it does not necessarily need splitting off - Suggestions:
 * Try and reduce the wording of those sections which are summaries of "main articles"
 * Reduce the bibliography or consider a "show / hide" bar

Chaosdruid (talk) 20:47, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Copyedit March 2011
Hi all

During the copyedit some things came to light which may need attention:


 * Lead
 * "At the end of the war many castles were slighted to prevent future use." - the wikilink for slight does not explain what this term means, and I cannot find one that would. ✅


 * Invasion
 * "Some groups of castles were located so as to be mutually reinforcing – for example the castles of Littledean Camp, Glasshouse Woods and Howle Hill Camp were intended to act as an integrated defence for the area around Gloucester and Gloucester Castle for Gloucester city itself, whilst Windsor was one of a ring of castles built around London, each approximately a day's march apart." - I tried to better explain the relationship between the three defending the area and Gloucester castle itself.
 * Reads well to me - thanks.Hchc2009 (talk) 14:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)


 * "shortage of unfree labour." - not sure if this is a historical term, or if it needs a little more explanation as to what exactly unfree labour means.
 * Have clarified and linked.Hchc2009 (talk) 14:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Last paragraph. I understand what is being said, that some castles were left unoccupied during various times and that at no time were they all occupied - the problem is that there is no mention of how many castles existed, it may be better to say in the last sentence "out of 700" or whatever the number may be.
 * Have tried out an alternative here.Hchc2009 (talk) 14:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Architecture
 * "such as the south-west and south Wales." - is this south-west England or south-west Wales? "the south-west" implies, at least to my mind, that it would be of England. Dropping the "the" would imply to me that it was Wales. (as it is used in a later section "In the south-west, where")
 * It was England, clarified.


 * I removed a couple of "for example" as it seemed overused.
 * That would sound typical of me! :) Hchc2009 (talk) 14:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Developments in castle design
 * "build them; unlike unfree labour," (para2) - the unfree labour term again.
 * Clarified. Hchc2009 (talk) 14:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)


 * The Anarchy
 * "broke out in England and raged between 1139 and 1153" - without the qualifier the war broke out sometime between the dates, rather than lasting between those dates.
 * "The Anarchy" - capitalised "The" as it is the proper name for the period?
 * Um no - changed! Hchc2009 (talk) 14:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)


 * The spread of castles in Scotland, Wales and Ireland
 * "The king encouraged Norman and French" - which king? I assume this is David I although it could equally be Henry I.
 * Clarified in the text. Hchc2009 (talk) 14:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Economy and society
 * "although it continued in the Welsh Marshes" - should this be "Marches"?
 * Soggy though they often are, yes! Changed.Hchc2009 (talk) 14:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)


 * "14th century an artificial was enclosed by a park" (para4) - an artificial what?
 * Clarified in the text. Hchc2009 (talk)


 * Welsh principalities and Edwardian castles
 * "characterised by powerful mural towers" - what is a mural tower?
 * A tower on a wall. Clarified in the text. Hchc2009 (talk) 14:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)


 * 1945–21st century
 * "The conversation preference was" - unsure of what conversation this referred to, I supposed this meant conservation?
 * Yes, although I'm sure it fuelled a few after-dinner debates as well! :) Hchc2009 (talk) 14:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)


 * General notes
 * A large number of repetitive "however", "for example" and "such as" were removed. Many were unnecessary (although I did not remove them) and some "however"s did not have a preceding statement to qualify their use.

Chaosdruid (talk) 17:39, 25 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I've fixed the slighting links. Nev1 (talk) 01:13, 25 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Very many thanks - particularly for dealing with my "however"s, which tend to multiply... :) I'll work through the above later on tonight, but this is really appreciated. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:00, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Have gone through and cleaned up as you suggested above. Reads much better - thanks for all the hard work, Hchc2009 (talk) 14:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Possible spin off page - Index
Hi, I'm pretty new to Wikipedia and haven't had much luck finding a mentor so sorry if I'm going about this in the wrong way.

I'm wondering if there is scope for an index page that list British castles perhaps in chronological order of their construction. (I've looked for one but can't see it anywhere.) If there is a page for individual castles we could then link from the index. I realise this would be a big job (and that's why I havn't just gone ehead and started it) but I feel it would be a really useful resource. The other issue is that my coding knowledge is a bit weak so setting the page up in some sort of table format would be a bit beyond me. We could then start to populate the page as we go.

Any thoughts?

Kotch5 (talk) 17:27, 24 December 2011 (UTC)


 * There is a List of Castles in England (and equivalent Scottish, Welsh and Irish ones). My cautionary note would be that even these partial lists are very long: worth having a look at the discussion on the English list about this. If you want any help with individual castle articles, give me a shout here on or my talk page - happy to mentor. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:32, 24 December 2011 (UTC)


 * (ec) The closest there is are various lists by current country. So list of castles in England, list of castles in Wales, list of castles in Scotland, List of castles in the Republic of Ireland, and list of castles in Northern Ireland. I just turned list of castles in Ireland into a disabiguation page as it was essentially a copy of the NI list but with an empty section for RoI.
 * But those lists are organised by county rather than date, although the individual counties can be sorted by date. The problem with organising by date is that the foundation of many castles is unknown or uncertain, and a castle that was founded in the 11th century may have been altered if it continued in use. To paraphrase Professor Matthew Johnson in Behind the Castle Gate, an 11th century castle that remained in use was also a 12th century castle, and a 13th cetury castle, and so on.

Proposal to remove unnecessary Google Books links
The Bibliography is full of links to Google Books. These are unnecessary as the ISBNs link to a non-partisan page with a wide choice of book listing providers, including Google Books. Are there any objections to having these all removed? --Fæ (talk) 21:40, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. Many reviewers at GA and ACR seem to prefer to see them in. Hchc2009 (talk) 05:03, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Regarding boldfacing "adulterine castles" ...
I added the term "castles" and boldfacing to "adulterine" in section #The Anarchy to comply with the convention of boldfacing terms associated with a redirect.

Here's a link to the relevant redirect page: Adulterine_castle.

I came by it via Slighting from whence it is the destination of a wikilink. I was initially unsure whether I'd been directed to the correct/relevant section as the resultant section heading differed from the wikilinked term and no alternate terms were boldfaced below. Hence, I was inspired to incorporate boldfacing of the redirected term "adulterine castles" as an aid to future users.

It seems to me that doing so has had no affect on the meaning of the passage but merely serves to help redirected users to orient themselves. The use of boldface seems to be, if not necessary, most certainly useful in this instance as it serves to make linked information more readily accessible to readers. --Kevjonesin (talk) 20:37, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * If someone could find a smooth way to incorporate the term "adulterine castles" closer to the beginning of the "#The_Anarchy" section (and then boldface it instead) that would be even better as multiple articles link via that term. --Kevjonesin (talk) 20:56, 13 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I've reverted, as the WP:MOS states that there are only a few special cases when bold text should be used outside the lead: table headers and captions; description lists; mathematical objects traditionally written in boldface such as vectors and the rational numbers; and volume numbers of journal articles, in some bibliographic formats. This isn't one of those. One of the reasons for this is that it would look extremely odd to have words scattered across articles in bold text as a result of wiki-anchors; most readers wouldn't be able to work out why stray words were in bold. You might consider turning the Adulterine castle redirect into a stub article, perhaps? Hchc2009 (talk) 21:44, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * This seems like a good place to insert a reminder to folks that Wikipedia is not (meant to be) a bureaucracy. I'll personally add to that my own observation that the WP:MOS and other such guidelines are in fact dynamically edited wiki pages in their own right and should be taken with the requisite 'grain of salt' as they may well contain human errors and oversights or simply change without notice. Case in point, the MOS:BOLDFACE section currently (15:18, 14 May 2013 (UTC)) addresses the existing WP:Redirect guideline, WP:R, which had been, unfortunately, previously overlooked therein less than 24 hrs ago. Be careful as failure to consider the above may risk waking the Colonel. --Kevjonesin (talk) 15:18, 14 May 2013 (UTC)


 * There is no "wiki-anchor" in this case. It's a matter of eight existing wikilinks to a section of an article. Such linked sections frequently have linked terms boldfaced in their lead paragraph. The style guideline gets applied to the article section as it would to the overall article, de facto, throughout much of Wikipedia.


 * It would, however, be better if the bold text appeared closer to the beginning of the paragraph. As I'm not particularly specialized in the castles topic and in deference to editors who've made previous contributions to the page I thought I'd start by simply boldfacing the first use of the term. I suppose I could attempt to rephrase the whole paragraph to move the bold term farther up but I'd rather leave such to someone more involved in the topic. I do, however, strongly feel that having the term "adulterine castles" in boldface included somewhere is both warranted and useful to receive folks following the linked term. So, unless someone else chooses to do it first, I guess at some point soon I'll be rephrasing the paragraph to work the boldfaced term in towards the top.


 * I'd like to remind frequent contributors to this page to not lose sight of the WP:OWNERSHIP guidelines nor to forget the WP:3RR policy either. Perhaps a way can be found to address my concerns about receiving redirected readers that doesn't involve WP:PETTIFOGing? I certainly hope so. I think it might help to recall that this article doesn't exist in isolation but as part of a larger encyclopedia. And that an encyclopedia exists to make information readily available to readers. --Kevjonesin (talk) 23:11, 13 May 2013 (UTC)


 * p.s. — Regarding "You might consider turning the Adulterine castle redirect into a stub article, perhaps?"


 * Hchc2009, I don't have much interest in writing a castles stub article. I've been focusing on image editing lately. However, I notice that you do seem to have a strong interest in the topic of castles. Perhaps you'd like to take on the task? As it would include the term boldfaced in the lead it would certainly satisfy my initial concerns for linked readers and likely exceed them. The more I think about it the better the idea of simply giving it it's own page grows on me as there seem to be many such castles — well, ruins thereof anyway — and surely not all of them relate to "The Anarchy". I'd be happy to help by contributing image editing if needed. hmm, I did notice you'd mentioned images previously on this talk page...
 * "'If anyone can find a better picture of a motte and bailey earthwork, or a ringwork, let's use them. I'll admit I was struggling to find a picture with both a motte and a bailey earthwork clearly in it, or a really good ringwork shot!'"
 * Feel free to bring any image files you'd like help with to my attention. I may be able to improve color settings, combine images, trim out distracting modern bits, etc. --Kevjonesin (talk) 23:11, 13 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Ah, I was pretty sure that I hadn't simply pulled the boldfacing of redirects convention outta' my ass but I didn't have an actual official guideline at hand and thought common experience might suffice. But for all the [insert frustrated expletives here] WP:WIKILAWYERs out there the directly relevant link is WP:R. Which states:


 * "What needs to be done on pages that are targets of redirects?"


 * "We follow the 'principle of least astonishment'—after following a redirect, the reader's first question is likely to be: 'hang on ... I wanted to read about this. Why has the link taken me to that?'. Make it clear to the reader that they have arrived in the right place."


 * "Normally, we try to make sure that all 'inbound redirects' other than misspellings or other obvious close variants of the article title are mentioned in the first couple of paragraphs of the article or section to which the redirect goes. It will often be appropriate to bold the redirected term."


 * Funny enough, it seems to directly address not only the edit which I made but my reasons for doing so as well.


 * I'll be reverting the removal of my good faith and guideline compliant edit immediately after posting this. I'll leave it in place until such a time as someone actually manifests a separate "Adulterine castle" article and transfers the existing wikilinks to it. --Kevjonesin (talk) 01:04, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I stumbled crossing a bridge one day and thought to fill in the gap on which I'd tripped so as to make the way easier for those yet to come this way. Little did I know that lurking below was one who seemed to lay claim to the King's highway merely for having labored in it's construction. As if that which was offered freely as service to the realm was now to serve as title to a common path. Ah, alas alack, the many ways in which a kindly gesture can become arduous tedium when the well intentioned are forced to stop and pay the troll.


 * p.s. — "Wo-oah, what I want to know..."
 * p.p.s. This also covers it.
 * --Kevjonesin (talk) 01:04, 14 May 2013 (UTC)


 * It occurs to me at this point that perhaps the gentler path would be to offer User:Hchc2009 the opportunity to restore bold text of the linked term to the article section rather than immediately doing so myself. Less likely to get a knee-jerk edit war response. It would be a shame to see such a generally well intentioned and prolific editor as User:Hchc2009 get himself suspended for WP:3RR WP:WARing over a relatively small formatting issue. And surely he must have what's best for the Wiki in mind at heart. I'll drop a note on his talk page. And give him some time to respond.--Kevjonesin (talk) 01:23, 14 May 2013 (UTC)


 * As proposed above, I've expanded the article itself. Hchc2009 (talk) 05:49, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. The new "Adulterine castle" article looks to be off to a good start. Once again, let me know if you come across any castle related images in want of assistance. I'd be happy to lend a hand. --Kevjonesin (talk) 14:10, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Hill forts, Saxon shore forts and folly castles
I think a brief section on earlier castles might enhance the article's coverage:
 * Maiden Castle and the like (along the lines of just because its is called a castle doesn't make it one
 * The Saxon Shore Forts and how some of them were converted to Norman castles -- just because it is not called a castle does not mean in isn't one.

As there is a section on fashion, it is probably worth mentioning folly castles such as such as Castle in Hagley Park built as a ruin in the picturesque style in because the Lytteltons did not own a real ruined castle to find sublime.

-- PBS (talk) 18:34, 9 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Sounds a good idea to me. If others agree, I've got some time over the next days, so happy to help out with some drafting and ref's. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:37, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Reconstruction of a 13th-century castle in north Wales


Would this reconstruction of Holt Castle be useful? Holt isn't mentioned by name in the article but it might fit in the 'economy and society' section of the part on the 13th and 14th centuries as an example of baronial architecture. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:45, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good plan. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:59, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Would there be any objection to me making the edit? As far as the caption is concerned how about "A reconstruction of Holt Castle c1495. The castle was built in the late 13th century by John de Warenne, 6th Earl of Surrey."? Richard Nevell (talk) 21:01, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the delay - no, certainly no objection from me. Hchc2009 (talk) 10:04, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Brilliant, I've gone ahead and done it. Richard Nevell (talk) 11:45, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Slightly awkward sentence in lead?
Hello. Near the top of the lead we have this sentence: During the 12th century the Normans began to build more castles in stone, with characteristic square keeps that played both military and political roles. At first glance it's unclear (well, it is to me at least ...) whether we are saying it's the castles themselves that played the military and political roles, or the square keeps specifically. I'm inclined to guess it's the former but I'd rather someone who knows the intent better than I could pitch in here so I get less egg on my face. So, what do you think? Cheers DBaK (talk) 09:54, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
 * You're right - the intent was the former (castles)! Hchc2009 (talk) 20:44, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much. I have tried to fix it – with the use of dashes to separate out the keeps bit – but I found it surprisingly tricky to do it elegantly. I'm not absolutely sure that I like the dashes but the meaning is at least clearer. There was a risk of fragmenting it up into annoying little bitty bits to clarify the roles vs. the keep shape ... tsk, I dunno. Do please undo and sort what I did if you've got a better fix! Cheers DBaK (talk) 07:55, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not even sure that the squareness of the keeps need to be given that degree of prominence in the opening paragraph. It was a design feature, which was later superseded.  Is it critical that we mention it in the first paragraph, in that way?   Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:58, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Fair point. It feels well beyond my competence to reply to that, so I will now ceremonially shut up! :) Best to all DBaK (talk) 13:19, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

I have a certain fascination with the square keeps, but I think Ghmyrtle's right... Hchc2009 (talk) 19:30, 25 January 2017 (UTC)