Talk:Casualties during the 2013–2014 Ukraine crisis

Expansion
I'd like to help expanding this article, if it can be done. I wonder as to what type of prose we should include. UN reports about civilian deaths? Analysis of casualty numbers? Concerns about dead Russian soldiers? RGloucester — ☎ 05:31, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * All of the above. It could also comfortably incorporate summaries of main articles such as humanitarian concerns. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:32, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * By the way, Eko, excellent work on expanding the article. I've got some stuff saved in the pipeline that I'm working on for this article. RGloucester  — ☎ 05:33, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks and excellent. Like Iryna said, the article should be expanded on the issue of humanitarian concerns as well as the issue of possible Russian soldiers being killed among the ranks of rebel forces. EkoGraf (talk) 07:15, 10 February 2015 (UTC)


 * At 06:48, 10 February 2015  moved page Casualties of the war in Donbass to Casualties of the Ukrainian crisis (After discussion going to expand the article to include casualties from the whole of Ukraine since the start of the crisis)
 * I'm a bit confused by the above discussion. UN reports about civilian deaths in the war in Donbass? Analysis of casualty numbers in the war in Donbass? Concerns about dead Russian soldiers in the war in Donbass? Or in the "Ukrainian crisis", aka Euromaidan and the 2014 Ukrainian revolution? – wbm1058 (talk) 13:42, 11 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Is Humanitarian situation during the war in Donbass the "expansion" of coverage of civilian humanitarian concerns y'all were looking for here? wbm1058 (talk) 15:33, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Missing people
What about the people gone missing during Euromaidan? Some reports stated more than 1000 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.80.138 (talk) 16:14, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Untitled
it is doubtful that the separatists losses dead for two years almost remained the same. Neferer (talk) 12:05, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Ukrainian foreign fighters died number
I'd like to clarify the number of 170 foreign fighters that are currently stated as foreigners who died on the Ukrainian side.

As I understand, this number is just the count of all the people listed here: http://memorybook.org.ua/regions/other.htm which is extremely inaccurate. Because this is the summary page for all those people who were born not on Ukrainian (or, to be even more specific, Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic) territory.

The real number of foreigners can be taken here: http://memorybook.org.ua/indexfile/statbirth.htm - it's 12 foreigners - 4 from Russia, 4 from Georgia, and 1 for each USA, Sweden, Belarus and Ichkeria. All other were Ukrainian citizens who happened to be born outside of Ukraine (UkrSSR). For example, General Kulchitskiy was born in Weimar, Germany, and he is stated among those 170. But he's Ukrainian and had a Ukrainian citizenship, just like 158 others. --VoidWanderer (talk) 13:15, 4 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Rectified. EkoGraf (talk) 05:22, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

As for Ukrainian casualties total, not all volunteer battalions are part of Armed Forces or National Guard even to the date. It seems better to state it as Ukrainian forces and explain details about UAF, NGU and volunteers in a note. --VoidWanderer (talk) 13:51, 5 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I checked and the sources I found say that the jurisdiction of the volunteer battalions has been divided between the Ministry of the Interior (specifically the NGU) and the Ministry of Defense (the Armed Forces). I haven't found a source stating that there are still battalions that aren't part of ether. EkoGraf (talk) 19:20, 7 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Ukrainian forces is a too general/broad term. The DPR and LPR could be called Ukrainian as well. So far I have not seen any sources confirming that there are still volunteers outside government jurisdiction. Thus, there is no reason not to link to the Armed Forces (as it has been up until now), and also to link to the NGU (as I attempted to compromise) since they are separate from the Armed Forces. If you find sources that say there are still volunteers outside government jurisdiction we can discuss further. EkoGraf (talk) 08:18, 8 February 2017 (UTC)


 * There are numerous units like Volunteer Ukrainian Corps, which was partly transformed to Ukrainian Volunteer Army; units like OUN battalion or "Aerorozvidka" (air reconnaissance). They never were fully integrated to government-controlled formations. They are listed here: http://memorybook.org.ua/units/other.htm, together with some government bodies.
 * As for DPR/LPR as Ukrainian forces.. well. A major part of their soldiers has Ukrainian citizenship indeed. But is it enough to call them Ukrainian? They're fighting against anything that is pro-Ukrainian. --VoidWanderer (talk) 09:28, 8 February 2017 (UTC)


 * They may be fighting against pro-Kiev government forces, but they are still Ukrainian. Just like in Syria where we have government and rebel forces, but they are both still Syrian forces. As for the Volunteer Ukrainian Corps, I checked at your suggestion, their incorporation into ether the Armed Forces or the National Guard was announced two years ago. EkoGraf (talk) 21:07, 8 February 2017 (UTC)


 * The incorporation of Volunteer Ukrainian Corps was never completed. That is the reason it is placed in special section. --VoidWanderer (talk) 21:46, 8 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Than please provide a source that it was not completed and I will try and make an appropriate edit in the table. EkoGraf (talk) 10:17, 9 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Here, it's in Ukrainian: Більшість з них досі реально не інтегровані в офіційні державні структури - ДУК "Правий сектор" (дивіться попередню довідку), батальйон ОУН та інші. Загальна чисельність їх може досягати 50 тис. підготовлених членів (бойові частини до 5 тис.). Translation: Most of them (volunteer nationalist battalions) still weren't integrated to official government structures - Volunteer Ukrainian Corps "Right Sector" (see block above), OUN battalion and others. Their total number may reach 50,000 trained members (up to 5,000 in combat units). --VoidWanderer (talk) 12:26, 9 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Made a compromise edit. EkoGraf (talk) 13:27, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Follow up
Why are even foreign-born Ukrainian citizens mentioned in Foreign fighters section? What is foreign about them? It would be appropriate to mention foreign mercenaries that received Ukrainian citizenship and died, for example. There's not a single evidence this is the case. --VoidWanderer (talk) 18:38, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

EkoGraf, can you answer this question please? --VoidWanderer (talk) 08:53, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Sorry, didn't see the message before. I could say notability, the Ukrainians think they are notable enough to be distinguished from all of the other ethnic Ukrainians. Also, we are already mentioning the 1,168 Russian citizens according to Cargo 200, but again, a lot of those Russians could be Ukrainian Russians as well who make up 17 percent of Ukraine's population, with most of them concentrated in that region, and a lot of them have dual citizenship between Ukraine and Russia. Despite Ukrainian law prohibiting it since they started enforcing it only in the last few years. So if we removed the foreign-born Ukrainians killed on Kiev's side, we would have to remove the figure claimed by Cargo 2000 due to the (very high) possibility it includes Russians who are also Ukrainian citizens (Ukrainian-born). If you want, we could change the wording of the text in a way so we could find a compromise? Although after our last discussion I think the wording is as it should be now. EkoGraf (talk) 10:03, 9 November 2017 (UTC)


 * No, it's not the case. This MemoryBook page literally shows the place of birth of all of those soldiers of Ukrainian army (and police, etc) who died in conflict. So it shows per-region info (24 oblasts + Crimea), and, obviously, other countries if it happened someone was born there. You can't distinguish someone if you're just providing data for place of birth.
 * It's not ethnic Russians. AFAIK, it was Russian citizens, i.e. the citizens of Russian Federation. I haven't seen any ethnicity-based statistics in this conflict, it seems it's literally impossible to provide one.
 * We need to check that, but again: Cargo 200 stats are based on the city person lived in, not born. They accumulate data from the relatives and families of those who died.
 * Once again - no one is counting Ukrainian citizens as Russians. Or we should check that carefully.
 * --VoidWanderer (talk) 20:33, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
 * We need to check that, but again: Cargo 200 stats are based on the city person lived in, not born. They accumulate data from the relatives and families of those who died.
 * Once again - no one is counting Ukrainian citizens as Russians. Or we should check that carefully.
 * --VoidWanderer (talk) 20:33, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
 * --VoidWanderer (talk) 20:33, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

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Separatist casulties
The total number of killed Donbass separatists is inaccurate because of lack of official information, confirmed numbers is the minimum and it's more outdated than Ukranian casulties, the separatist losses indicated by your method are most likely not complete. Number of killed Russian sitizens, fighting on the separatist side, is obviously about 2000 now (2081 killed and missing, as of March 1, 2016), which is the confirmed by "cargo 200". In addition, the separatists secretly bury their dead, which complicates the calculation, for example: http://placdarm.net/wato/569-zahoronenie-boevikov-batalona-prizrak-v-s-spornoe-bahmutovskogo-rayona.html So, rebel deaths is estimates, not the exact number, it's necessary to indicate this. I previously add "missing separatists" section from "gruz200" latest list, but it was removed, what is wrong? 2.95.241.151 (talk) 01:37, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * No source provided. EkoGraf (talk) 09:22, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 22 June 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

Casualties of the Russo-Ukrainian War → Casualties of the Ukrainian crisis – As per the original concept established by editors, the scope and subject of this article are the casualties from both the Russo-Ukrainian War and the Euromaidan events that preceded it (collectively known as the Ukrainian crisis). The title of the article was Casualties of the Ukrainian crisis for more than five years, until an editor made the bold step today to re-title it (to its current title) and remove the text on the Euromaidan events (after the Russian military intervention in Ukraine (2014–present) was renamed to Russo-Ukrainian War). The significant changing of the subject of the article (and its title) would need a talk page consensus. So until a consensus is reached the old name of the article should be re-established. EkoGraf (talk) 20:25, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I'm not sure that this is a good idea to cover here both the Russo-Ukrainian War and the Euromaidan. Euromaidan preceded Russo-Ukrainian War but was not the main cause of it. There is already the List of people killed during Euromaidan, so this article can be focused on the casualties from the Russo-Ukrainian War, this topic is already wide enough, unfortunately. --Chichiguy (talk) 08:04, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose – I think that, given that the casualties Euromaidan events have their own article, and that their coverage here was always trivial, it makes sense to approve this rescoping. While Euromaidan and the subsequent conflict are part of a continuum of events, they were fundamentally different, in that the annexation of Crimea and the Donbass war were military conflicts, rather than mere civil unrest. Leave this article as a 'casualties' article, i.e. one dealing with military conflict, and let Euromaidan be treated at its own article. Given the new organisational scheme that is being implemented for these articles, I think it makes sense. RGloucester  — ☎ 13:42, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment – I, as the nominator of this article to be redirected back to Casualties of the Ukrainian crisis, am withdrawing my move request. My main reason for making the move request was because I thought that editor Vorov should have went through a talk page discussion first before making the radical restructuring of the article. However, since two editors expressed their support for the restructuring, including RGloucester who originaly worked with me on the long-running concept of the article when it was created five years ago, then I see no reason to oppose the subject of this article being only the casualties of the Russo-Ukrainian War. Thus, I will proceed in removing the Euromaidan and Odessa/Kharkov casualties sections which are part of the general Ukrainian crisis, and not the Russo-Ukrainian War. However, I would request help in expanding the article with more detail regarding the humanitarian fallout of the war for example. Cheers! EkoGraf (talk) 17:48, 26 June 2020 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


 * I think its time with reinstated the move, given the consensus that emerged at Russo-Ukrainian War. RGloucester  — ☎ 17:49, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Its a matter of this article's subject and until the edits made by the indefinitely banned sock-puppeteer the subject of the article has been for the past 5 and a half years the casualties resulting from all of the events that are considered part of the general Ukrainian crisis (not just the Russo-Ukrainian War which is just one part of the crisis). And I am still of the opinion that an article should exist that presents casualties from all major events of the crisis. EkoGraf (talk) 10:04, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Just because someone is a sockpuppeteer doesn't mean that every edit they made is invalid. I really think it is questionable to combine events related to the military conflict with completely different events like Euromaidan. It makes sense for the scope of a 'casualties' article to be limited to the military conflict. RGloucester  — ☎ 14:01, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Both Euromaidan and the Russo-Ukrainian War are considered part of the Ukrainian crisis. In any case, that's my opinion. EkoGraf (talk) 21:47, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed, but there is a difference between a military conflict and protests/riots/civil unrest. RGloucester  — ☎ 02:09, 25 July 2020 (UTC)


 * EkoGraf, you are not correct. Euromaidan is considered part of the Ukrainian crisis, but the Russo-Ukrainian War is not considered part of the Ukrainian crisis. There fore this acticle should be split on two as proposed by User:RGloucester. One is about the casualties of the Ukrainian_crisis (i. e. protests/riots/civil unrest) and the other about the casualties of the Russo-Ukrainian War. --Andronof (talk) 10:33, 6 August 2020 (UTC)