Talk:Casualties of the 2011 Bahraini uprising and its aftermath

New Deaths
There have been a number of deaths since 6 February that should probably be mentioned:


 * 12 February 2012: Fatima Albasri. Don't have details right now.
 * 17 February 2012: Hussain Albaqali. Died as he did not seek timely medical attention for burns sustained during the "Sky's Mourning" tire burning protest, due to fear of going to the hospital.  MoI says that his parents said that he set him self on fire after a family dispute, and says that Hussain admitted that he set himself on fire, and that the confession was recorded on "audio and video tapes."  This confession has not been released yet, as far as I can tell: (MoI statement).
 * 18 February 2012: Mansoor Salman. Tear gas (BCHR).
 * 21 February 2012: Rose Nisha Naikarottu Baby Varghese. Her family claims that she slipped into a coma during an asthma attack that may have been triggered by tear gas. (GDN report)
 * 25 February 2012: Abda Hussain. Tear gas. (Nabeel Rajab tweet) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Billmarczak (talk • contribs) 13:20, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I updated the page and charts w/ all of the deaths except Fatima Albasri.Billmarczak (talk) 23:53, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Good job, nice to see you back; having you here is a great motivation for editing and creating new articles. Fatima Albasri wasn't mentioned by any notable political figures or parties. Only this Facebook page gave details about her death. This makes total deaths 76 with 25 allegedly with tear gas - will update related articles with numbers.  Bahraini Activist  Talk to me 06:48, 26 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I found this tweet that seems to be from the Alliance for a Republic's official Twitter account. Also, there was a 1.5 month old baby allegedly killed from tear gas today.  Also, looks like there's some copyright issues in this article that we should fix up. Billmarczak (talk) 00:09, 6 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Don't worry about the copyright issue from Bahrainrights website, I have contacted them in the past and they responded in a good timely matter. Also, for those killed under torture, I'll do copy-editing from Torture during the 2011–2012 Bahraini uprising since it was cleaned from copyright violations recently. For now, fix the CV from this link and I'll see if there are further CV to fix. This is a serious issue in Wikipedia!


 * For the new death, you can use these tweets by S.Yousif Almuhafda as references, , , and . This definitely won't be the last death by tear gas as long as they keep "sinking" residential areas with tear gas.


 * The Twitter account seems valid.  Mohamed CJ  (talk) 07:36, 6 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Yep, I'll fix that CV later, as well as adding Fatima Albasri, the 1.5 month old baby, and Sakina Marhoon. I received a document from the BCHR listing Fatima Albasri's death, but they don't seem to list it on their website, which is odd. Billmarczak (talk) 16:18, 6 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I've added those 3 deaths.  Mohamed CJ  (talk) 06:39, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Improvements

 * Section about torture. (See Human rights reports on 2011–2012 Bahraini uprising)
 * More details about injuries.
 * Section about CS gas. CS_gas

Copyright problem
This article was tagged for close-paraphrasing and needs to be cleaned. Among the sources improperly used in the article: --NortyNort (Holla) 21:34, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * http://bahrainrights.org/en/node/3864
 * http://www.policemc.gov.bh/en/news_details.aspx?type=1&articleId=11364


 * The ticket number for BCHR article is: #2012031710000511.  Mohamed CJ  (talk) 15:26, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Veracity of reporting
Hi guys. Just back from a dissertation-enforced break from Wiki and I am a little concerned about how the reports of deaths have been construed on this page. It seems that a number of the recent casualties noted in the list rely solely on allegations made by the opposition or those without any medical knowledge, and are then counted as being a result of the unrest. For instance Yahya Yousef (I thought this was his father’s name, not his?) is on the list purely because his father *thinks* teargas may have led to his death. Is there any medical evidence for this? Apparently the baby didn’t even leave the hospital as he was ill from birth – I really don’t think that every death in Bahrain can be blamed on the unrest.

Similarly with using quotes from the BCHR in general. It is clearly in their wider political interest to state that the authorities are to blame for a majority of the deaths. In some cases relating to tear gas, they may (probably do) have a point but nonetheless are there any independent reports? Can’t the families ask for an independent autopsy? It is interesting that no international press wires/outlets (that I’ve seen anyway) have said that the government is responsible for these deaths. AKhani84 (talk) 10:25, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Welcome back. As long as the source is reliable, we can use it (we are exactly saying that his family is the one blaming his death for tear gas and that there is another official reason by the hospital). Amnesty International have used BCHR as source . You might have also noticed that we have added some deaths that weren't mentioned by BICI report such as that of the taxi driver, the Pakistani guy who was crushed while destroying the Pearl roundabout and a youth who was run over.


 * It would have been much better if there was a neutral medical facility that those injured from protests or even those at their houses could go to, get treated and then leave without being arrested/interrogated. The problem started since 16 March 2011 and for a while, till August 2011 (closed since then) there was a secret clinic for Médecins Sans Frontières which has treated some 250s injures (glad I remembered it, now I can add it to the number of injured), while other injures are treated at houses (with few exceptions at hospitals when the case is severe). You can't count on autopsies as long as the government has control over the hospital; they have proved in the past that they don't tell the truth, remember those killed under torture and how the government kept denying for months? this is just one small example.  Mohamed CJ  (talk) 16:35, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * It's not "clearly in [the BCHR's] wider political interest to state that the authorities are to blame for a majority of the deaths." The BCHR is a human rights organization, and it's not clear that they have any political agenda.  As for verifying cause of death, that's a hard problem.  For forensic exams in general, I usually don't see the conclusions of such exams reported anywhere except the Ministry of Interior media center or pro-government papers.  International media reporting on these deaths is basically what we do here on this Wikipedia page, kind of a he-said/she-said between witnesses and human rights organizations on the one hand, and the government on the other hand (though the international media doesn't report every single death).  Why would the international media issue a finding to the effect of "the government is responsible for this death?"  It's not their job to perform an investigation of each death.  It's unfortunate that the medical knowledge isn't getting out there, but understandable, given that doctors are currently facing charges of "violating patient privacy" for giving media info about casualties and letting them take pictures.  As for forensic exams, there's evidence that the government either forges forensic exams or is totally incompetent at conducting them (see BICI report about Ali Alsheikh).  A lawyer claimed as recently as this January that his requests to be present during the autopsy, and for an independent forensic exam, were denied (see Mohammed Ibrahim Yacoup).  Furthermore, the BCHR has "demanded" independent forensic exams of people who allegedly died of tear gas "due to difficulty of verifying the cause of death." Billmarczak (talk) 10:20, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Mistake in small tables
The current death number as of 7 June 2012 is 94. I've counted the deaths one by one from the detailed table. However in the first of the small table, the count is 93. I've traced the problem and it seems it started from the creation of the article (always 1 less than the total number). Thus I'll look into Bahraini uprising article history to see where the mistake was made.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  18:20, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I found the mistake, it was made in February 2012 by me. This is the diff (2 edits) . Six deaths were added, but only five were put in the top small table. An extra one should have been added to "other" category.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  18:34, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Another mistake was done on 9 June by me again. Instead of adding the two new deaths to civilians, I added one to expatriates and the other to security forces in the top small table and in the one below it one was added to security forces and the other to civilian (correctly) as shown in this diff.


 * To fix this, in the top table "other" category: +2 civilians, -1 security forces and -1 expatriates. In the table below it "Unknown Assailants" category: security forces -1, civilians +1.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  18:49, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Possibly unreliable references
I will list the numbers of references which I think are considered unreliable or primary or self published according to (what I understand so far of) Wikipedia policies, please discuss and correct me if any mistakes occur (Did I tag them correctly? Did I miss any of them?).
 * 1) Ref No. 18 for Fadak Habib Nasser Mushaima..
 * 2) Ref No. 30 and 31 for Hawra Mohammed Saeed -
 * 3) Ref No. 43 and 44 for Riyadh Hassan Rashed - ,
 * 4) Ref No. 58 and 59 for Mohamed Khamis al-Khunaizi. Both sources are Twitter, but each is telling a different story - Found RS, . In Arabic: , , , ,.
 * 5) Ref No. 60 for Saeed Ali Hassan Al-Sikry, but there is counter viewpoint supported by a RS -,.
 * 6) Ref No. 62 for Abbas Jaffaar al-Sheikh. Same as above -, ,
 * 7) Ref No. 63 and 64 for Muntathar Saeed Fakhar. Same as above - ,
 * 8) Ref No. 69 and 70 for Zahraa Ali Hassan Al-Hawwaj -, ,
 * 9) Ref No. 69 for Abdali Abdulla Mohammed Al-Ma'ameery., ,
 * 10) Ref No. 71 for Ali Isa Abdulla Al-Hayki., , ,.
 * 11) Ref No. 72 for Fatima Albasri. ,
 * 12) Ref No. 78 and 79 for Habbib Kadhem Ahmed al-Mulla., , ,
 * 13) Ref No. 80 and 81 for Sayed Jaffar Salman Juma'a al-Alawi.
 * 14) Ref No. 82 for Yahya Yousif., ,
 * 15) Ref No. 87 and 88 for Jaffar Jassem Radhi., ,
 * 16) Ref No. 91 for Sabrie Mahfoodh Yousif., ,.
 * 17) Ref No. 96 for Sayed Mohammed Sayed Radhi.
 * 18) Ref No. 97 for Hassan Majjid Hassan.
 * 19) Ref No. 101 and 102 for Khadija Mohamed Ali Abbas. ,
 * 20) Ref No. 108 for Maryam Nasser Abdulla. None found.

As I have said before, some deaths can be supported by other references not used here such as using BCHR website instead of Twitter accounts of its members (you can make edits on the list itself if you want).  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  10:35, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with the lack of reliable sources for most of these. Many of the names should be removed from the list, but I will not protest if #3 (Mohamed Khamis al-Khunaizi; Ref #58,59) stays. Also, if the Twitter account for Nabeel Rajab is confirmed as a verified account by a separate reliable source, then as per our discussion regarding Zainab al-Khawaja, it would seem information associated with Ref #69 & 79 would also be acceptable.Boneyard90 (talk) 11:28, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Nabeel Rajab account is confirmed for sure lol. He's been arrested three times so far for tweets. Here are two refs, . What I'm trying to do now is find RS for those for don't have then remove the rest. If others want to discuss this in the future, they can see names here.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  11:43, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm done searching for RS. Currently there is only one death which I found no RS supporting. The rest have references, some are clearly reliable, while others might need checking. It would be nice if you can check them. I have found that a death which I removed before is included in Bahrainrights website: Shabeer Mammed . I removed him (diff), because the source provided  didn't mention he died due to tear gas.  Mohamed CJ   (talk)  14:37, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Ha! I found a source for the last death! Al Manar. Well, better than nothing.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  13:28, 14 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Looks like you're doing some good work. Keep it up.Boneyard90 (talk) 14:12, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

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