Talk:Catalans

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Name of Catalans in French
See here: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalans Wathiik (talk) 15:10, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Catalans "an ethnic group"?
I disagree with the introduction of this article, as User:Beethoven insists on keeping it. The question is whether "Catalans" should be defined as "an ethnic group" or as the people or citizens of Catalonia.

The reference provided by Beethoven to justify the use of the term "ethnic group" is the book One Europe, Many Nations by James B. Minahan. There are two problems with this. First, the source says "Catalans are a Romance people" - not mentioning the term "ethnic group" at all! Furthermore, this source is at least non-neutral, and to me rather unreliable. The author claims to be "an independent researcher living in Barcelona" and writes things like "[the Catalans] are known for their energy and intelligence", and suffered "a massive influx of peasant immigrants from Spain's backward south". Overall, the text of this book seems to be written from a 100% nationalist perspective.

There is no universal definition of the term "ethnic group" and it is never used in Spanish media or textbooks to describe the country's population. Not even the book by Mr Minahan uses it. Wikipedia should not adopt a definition of Catalans that no one else supports.

If Catalans are defined as the speakers of the Catalan language, then one can say that they form a linguistic community, but this is only one possible definition of the word Catalans, and it excludes many inhabitants of Catalonia as well as including many inhabitants of other territories.

The official term used in the Catalan statute of autonomy for Catalonia is "nationality". There was controversy in 2006, when the new version of the statute proposed to replace that word with "nation" and the change was finally rejected (Article 1).

The official definition of Catalans in the current statute of autonomy is "the citizens of Spain who live in Catalonia" (Art.7).

For these reasons, I propose to go back to the definition of Catalans as "officially, the citizens of Catalonia, an autonomous community in Spain and the inhabitants of the Roussillon historical region in southern France, today the Pyrénées Orientales department (...)". I am open to including the word "nationality" somewhere but taking care that the Rossillon should not be included in its scope. --Hispalois (talk) 15:46, 13 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm not the one insisting on keeping it. This article has been like this for many years. It seems that you are the one insisting on deleting it for no apparent reason. I don't really understand what's your problem with this. The definition of ethnic group is pretty clear. It's the same definition in English language, in Catalan, in Spanish or in any other language. Since I see that you are a Spaniard, you can check Spain's RAE dictionary for the Spanish definition. Catalans are an ethnic group in any of those languages.


 * It's an objective fact that Catalans are an European ethnic group, sharing a common language, history, society, culture and land for many centuries. With first references to Catalans (Cathalanenses) dating back to the 11th century.


 * It's the exact same definition that we can find in Wikipedia for other European ethnic groups like Galicians, Basques or Occitans. Those are all ethnic groups. Why make the exceptions for Catalans? Under which basis Catalans are not an ethnic group but the others are ethnic groups?


 * As you said, it's true that in the present, Catalonia is legally defined as a "nationality", and that in 2006 Catalans voted in favor that Catalonia could be legally defined as a "nation", but that Spain ultimately rejected it. However the legal status of Catalonia is irrelevant here, since this article is about Catalans, not about Catalonia. The lead should define what Catalans are, which they are a historical ethnic group that currently live in Catalonia, Northern Catalonia (currently part of France) and abroad. Similar thing we can see with Occitans article, where they include a part of Catalonia that belongs to the Occitan ethic group: Aran Valley. The current administrative French region of "Occitanie" is irrelevant to the ethnic group of the Occitans. Same with Basques, that includes the Basque territory that currently belongs to France. --Beethoven (talk) 16:28, 13 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Spanish nationalist. See catalanophobia.--Hinox (talk) 13:04, 27 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Let me add that I'm not the one who provided the source One Europe, Many Nations by James B. Minaha. I restored it from previous versions of the article.


 * It seems that your claims against this source are pretty unfounded, when it's used in almost every ethnic group article in this Wikipedia, be it Frenchs, Germans or Italians. Making it definitely neutral and reliable. This very book is also the only source used in the article Spaniards, despite the fact the book doesn't mention "ethnic group" nor "Romance" for Spaniards at all. But the book describes Catalans, Frenchs, Spaniards, etc. as peoples with the distinct traits of an ethnic group, therefore an ethnic group. If you prefer we can add to the lead: "Catalans are an European Romance1 ethnic group native to Catalonia". Moving the source right after Romance. Anyway, I personally find a bit odd this nitpicking obsession that you seem to have for the article about the Catalans, when as you can see, the same thing happens with the rest of the ethnic groups articles. --Beethoven (talk) 17:30, 13 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I would like to keep the discussion here restricted to the article Catalans. I don't know what people have written about Occitans, Spaniards or whatever and those articles should not be taken as reference here. Let's get this article right and then, if necessary, move to other faulty articles.
 * You have stated your opinion of why Catalans are, according to you, an "ethnic group". But that is only your opinion and needs to be backed by reliable sources. The book by Minahan does not use the term so it does not back up the claim. Pending new sources, I am going to add a citationrequired template to the statement on Catalans being an ethnic group. I am specifically asking for at least one reliable source that applies the term to Catalans.
 * For your information, there is not one widely accepted definition of ethnic group and the concept is variously associated with race, language, geographical origin, religion... Ethnicities are social constructs that evolve over time and that can be perceived differently by different people and at different periods of history. An emphasis on categorizing people in ethnicities is called "ethnicism". As you may have suspected, I do not adhere to ethnicism.
 * My alternative definition of Catalans is the people who live in Catalonia. Not only is that what official documents say, it is just what common people mean when they say Catalans in the media and in everyday conversations. What is your exact problem with this definition? --Hispalois (talk) 18:21, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

We can't ignore the other articles about ethnic groups, like Occitans, Basques, Galicians, Bretons, Hungarians... Because there must be consistency between articles on same subjects, and we must respect neutrality. Your opinion against "ethnic groups" is a personal opinion that if applied, should be applied to all ethnic groups in Wikipedia. Which obviously won't happen. Therefore, we shouldn't make an exception for the Catalans when you still haven't provided an argumentation as for why Catalans aren't an ethnic group, while the other European ethnic groups are ethnic groups. It seems that you really want to make the Catalans an exceptional case.

According to the Oxford Dictionary an ethnic group is "a community or population made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent." Other definitions associate an ethnic group with language, history, society, culture or nation. Catalans fit with this definitions as the other ethnic groups do.

The problem with your definition is that it simply isn't a correct definition for describing a group of people or ethnic group. Catalans do not only live in Catalonia, since there are Catalans in Northern Catalonia (they usually call themselves "Northern Catalans") and Catalans living abroad (Catalan diaspora). On the other hand, not all the people living in Catalonia are Catalans, like immigrants or expats.

Official documents don't say what you said, because there isn't an official definition as for what are the Catalans, Spaniards, Basques or Germans. The official law you keep referring to literally says this: ''The political condition of Catalans or citizens of Catalonia is enjoyed by Spanish citizens who have an administrative neighborhood in Catalonia. Their political rights are exercised in accordance with this Statute and laws'' (article 7 Statue of Autonomy of Catalonia). It's the Spanish law definition for the political condition of Catalans according to their administrative neighborhood. Not a definition of a group of people or ethnic group. It's like saying, in Spaniards' article that "Spaniards are the humans that fulfill the requisites for acquiring the Spanish citizenship".

I will edit the article to fix the sources.--Beethoven (talk) 19:12, 13 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the latest edit. I do agree with your last statement that Spaniards are the citizens of Spain, full stop. If you are born in Spain, or fulfill other requisites for citizenship, you get a Spanish passport and that makes you a Spaniard, irrespective of your language, skin color, religion or political beliefs. I have just modified Spaniards along this line.
 * Can you explain your view that "not all the people living in Catalonia are Catalans, like immigrants or expats"? If these people do not have Spanish citizenship, they are not within the official definition of Catalans, so I don't see your problem. Or do you mean other people? --Hispalois (talk) 20:35, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Hispalois back again
We had already discussed this, Hispalois. On 13 July 2019 we agreed on a lead for this article, following same lead style as the ones we can find for the other ethnic groups in Wikipedia. But some weeks later, out of nowhere, on 30 July 2019 you unilaterally changed the lead, removing sources and deleting information. Without discussing anything on talk page. And now you are doing it again. What are your intentions here with this disruptive editing? --Beethoven (talk) 12:14, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Hello Beethoven. We were having a conversation on 13 July, here above, but you apparently lost interest in it because you never replied to my latest questions. I waited for two weeks and then went on to edit the article. You seem to have misunderstood that "we agreed on a lead" (where please?). No, we still have a fundamental disagreement. For me Catalans are "the people from Catalonia", irrespective of their language, race or religion whereas you favor an entirely different definition based on the concept of "ethnic group", which by the way you have not defined yet. When you calm down, can we please continue to talk here? --Hispalois (talk) 13:23, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
 * So, you "waited two weeks for a reply" to a question that I already answered, and then you proceeded to remove sources and change everything we had agreed here? On 3 August 2019 I told you we had already discussed this in talk page, and I asked you for an explanation. Yet, a week later you did it again without any word in talk page from you. I don't think this shows good faith. I thought the discussion had ended long ago, since your questions had been answered and the sources you asked for had been provided. Making this article now one of the ethnic groups' articles with more sources in the lead section, compared to the rest.
 * I didn't reply to your latest question because it had already been answered here, and I didn't want to repeat myself. But if you prefer I can answer you here again. Not everybody living in Catalonia is a Catalan; for instance, anybody from the European Union can come to live to Catalonia, but those Germans or Poles aren't Catalans; their ethnic group is the German and Pole respectively. Please, also remember that it doesn't exist an "official definition of Catalans". And I already explained you why the Spanish law Statue of Autonomy's "political condition of Catalan" (administrative neighborhood in Catalonia) is not a valid definition for this article. You also say that I haven't defined the concept "ethnic group", which yet again is false. You should reread this discussion, but I can repeat myself here another time if you prefer so: according to the Oxford Dictionary an ethnic group is "a community or population made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent." Other definitions associate an ethnic group with language, history, society, culture or nation. Catalans fit with this definitions as the other ethnic groups do. You can find more information about it at the Wikipedia article (ethnic group), or at any dictionary.


 * I still don't understand what are your real intentions here. From all the dozens of ethnic groups articles in Wikipedia, it seems that you wanted to start a fight against the Catalans for no reason. Because this article has the same lead that we can read for other ethnic groups: Occitans, Basques, Galicians, Bretons, Hungarians, Sardinians... This article is no different from them.


 * As for your edits. This doesn't really belong here, since that's a survey only on the people living in Catalonia. But if you insist, we can keep it. But I don't think this shouldn't be here --Beethoven (talk) 15:57, 8 August 2019 (UTC)


 * You take it for granted that this should be "one of the ethnic groups' articles" but this is the key issue being debated. This article is about the word Catalans, which may have different meanings, and the article should reflect that diversity of points of view. I will compile these below but let me tackle first the other points you raise.
 * The definition of ethnic group is based on subjectivity: people who "identify with each other", based on some criterion. This subjectivity was stressed by Max Weber and is now generally accepted by social scientists. This makes it hard to define any group of people primarily as an "ethnic group".
 * Defining Occitans, Bretons, etc is definitely problematic and probably the matter of controversy but again this talk page is about Catalans so let's keep it focused on this topic. Why do I focus on Catalans? 1) Because I want to. 2) Because I know Catalonia pretty well and am more aware of relevant sources, so can make higher-quality edits than on, say, Hungarians.
 * If one uses the term "Catalan countries", one has to be honest and explain that nowadays it is a politically-loaded term that is perceived as an aggression by many people from, for instance, Valencia.
 * Going back to the definitions of "Catalans" at the heart of this issue. You still have not answered how the legal definition of Catalans is different from yours. Your example of Germans and Poles is irrelevant because the legal definition covers only Spanish citizens. So, I will formulate the question again: Is there any Spanish citizen living permanently (veïnatge) in Catalonia who is not a Catalan, according to you? If so, who? Conversely, are there Catalans who are not Spanish citizens living in Catalonia (other than the inhabitants of Roussillon)? If so, who?
 * I am going to compile in a table the different definitions of "Catalans" given by the different sources cited so far in the article:


 * I propose to remove the last two definitions of the table from the article, unless some reliable and unbiased source is provided; and then rewrite the lead to give a balanced presentation of the different definitions.
 * --Hispalois (talk) 21:13, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

We are not debating whether Catalans are or not an ethnic group here. This is not a matter of discussion, because Catalans clearly are an ethnic group. Like Basques or the Irish people. And since this article is about the Catalan ethnic group, it must follow the same style as the other ethnic groups in Wikipedia, for consistency. Which it already does, at least for the first phrase. Again, read Italians, Frenchs, Galicians, Greeks... all those articles have the same lead like the one for Catalans. And we shouldn't make an exception for the Catalans, when there's no reason for that. In the discussion that we had some weeks ago you asked for some sources where the Catalans are defined as an ethnic group, so that it could be included in the article. I included them, therefore this issue had been solved.

Defining Catalans, Basques, Germans, etc. is not problematic, since those are some of the most clear examples of ethnic groups that we can find in Europe. It's true, though, that some groups of people might be problematic to define, because they don't form ethnic groups, or they belong to another ethnic group, like the Murcian people for instance. But that is not the case of Catalans, which can be identified as a distinct European ethnic group and nation since many centuries ago, after the unification of the Catalan counties, when European texts begun to refer to the people living there as "Catalans", when Old Catalan begun to substitute Latin and the Catalan culture and legislation were being created. Since then until now, we can identify the characteristics of a clear ethnic group.

I know that you are focusing on Catalans just "because you want". I was only pointing that your attitude in this whole discussion is very weird, because of all the ethnic groups in the world you seemed to only be going against the Catalans, for no apparent reason at all. Despite the fact that you are not a Catalan yourself. I still don't understand what are your intentions here.

On the "legal definition" issue, let me tell you again that there is no legal definition for "Catalans". What you are saying simply doesn't exist. What you keep referring to is about the "political condition of Catalan" under a Spanish law from 2006, which is the way Spain is administered depending on the administrative neighborhood. That "political condition" is achieved after registering in a municipality (empadronamiento). But that's not a definition for "Catalans". Weeks ago I put you the example of the legal citizenship, which in the case of Catalans doesn't exist (because Catalonia is not an independent country at the moment), but if it existed, it sill wouldn't be a definition for Catalans. Which is why no ethnic group in Wikipedia has a legalistic definition: Germans are the human beings who have registered at the Federation of Admissions, have successfully passed an exam and thus fulfill the requisites for acquiring the German citizenship. You won't find that at any ethnic group, be it Swedes or Flemish people. There are other articles for this, like German nationality law. In Spain, Spanish nationality law, Political divisions of Spain, or Nationalities and regions of Spain.

About your first question: yes, of course that there are people with Spanish citizenship living in Catalonia who aren't Catalans. Spanish citizenship is a legal document acquired after being born. Every citizen in the world must have a citizenship. But many countries, like Spain, are formed by different nations and ethnic groups. In the case of Spain, a Basque might decide to come to live to Catalonia. Therefore, he's a Basque living in Catalonia. Not a Catalan. We can find lots of examples. A football player for instance, like Rafinha (footballer, born February 1993). He's a Brazilian footballer that also has the Spanish citizenship. He played for FC Barcelona for some years. Therefore, he was living in Catalonia with Spanish citizenship, but he wasn't a Catalan.

About your second question, yes of course that there are Catalans who are not Spanish citizens living in Catalonia. Northern Catalans (with French citizenship) are an example of people who can live in Catalonia without Spanish citizenship. Other examples are those within the Catalan diaspora. Be it Catalan Americans or whatever. If they are born in the European Union, they don't even need the Spanish citizenship to live in Catalonia.

About the Catalan Countries definition, looking at the older versions of the article I found this 2 sources. It's true that "Catalan" can also be used to refer to inhabitants of the Catalan Countries, as the Catalan dictionary says. Although is not that common. Instead of removing sources, we can simply add those two which are more reliable.

I don't think the lead needs to be rewritten. Definitely not the first phrase. It follows the same structure and definition of the other ethnic groups' articles. As it should be. The other lines maybe need a rewrite though, to make it more similar to the other ethnic groups, like Galicians or Basques (which also have population living in France, like Catalans) or Germans. I would remove the "official category" part about the Statue of Autonomy, since it's simply wrong, and only leave the Northern Catalonia part, explaining that this territory was originally part of Catalonia until it was ceded to France on the 17h century. I can edit that myself if you want. --Beethoven (talk) 23:52, 8 August 2019 (UTC)


 * You insist on defending your opinion and I insist on disagreeing. Any alleged ethnic group is a matter of discussion, because of the inherent subjectivity of its definition. I find it equally disturbing that French people are defined as an "ethnic group" in English Wikipedia whereas in the French Wikipedia they are defined as "l'ensemble des personnes jouissant individuellement de la nationalité française et collectivement de la France comme territoire souverain, comme peuple ou nation libre." You may call that "legalistic" but I find it much more objective and in agreement with actual facts than the English ethnicist definition that you seem to favor. But I will deal with French people later on, one article at a time.
 * Regarding your examples, I would argue that if someone from the Basque Country moves to Catalonia permanently, he/she does become a Catalan, with the same rights and obligations as any other resident of Catalonia, even if at the same time also self-identifying as Basque or French or whatever.
 * The two references on the extension of Catalan to the Catalan Countries are useful but not unbiased: they are both from sources edited by institutions linked to Catalan nationalism, in particular the second. This is consistent with what you say: this extended meaning of Catalans is not "that common". I have introduced your references and removed the non relevant ones.
 * Now we only need to agree on a wording for the first paragraph. --Hispalois (talk) 08:32, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Let's be honest here. I'm not insisting on any "opinion". Which opinion exactly are we talking about? I'm just trying to keep this article as neutral and objective as the other ethnic groups' articles are. While you seem to be doing the opposite. As far as I know, the only opinion in this discussion is coming from you, that you seem so adamant on imposing, and for some reason only on this article.

Since the beginning of this article you have made very clear that you "don't like ethnic groups". Which is fine, that's a personal opinion you are free to have and nobody can't judge for your personal feelings. But this is not something that must be discussed here. If anything, your opinion about ethnic groups might have a place of discussion at Talk:Ethnic group, or maybe not even there. But definitely not here, at Catalans. Which is why I'm telling you that I don't understand what are you trying to do here. Catalans are an ethnic group, just like Germans, Bretons, Galicians, Swedes or Waloons are. We are not discussing whether Catalans are or aren't an ethnic group, because we can't discuss this. Catalans are an ethnic group just like the rest. So at the end, what we are really discussing here is your opinion about ethnic groups, which is a pointless discussion. Why don't you go to Germans article and remove the reference to ethnic group and then write a comment in talk page saying that you don't like ethnic groups? It's a pointless thing to do, right? Well same thing here. You not liking something doesn't make it disappear.

About the French Wikipedia, please remember that this is the English Wikipedia, and we must follow the English Wikipedia criteria. But anyway, at the French Wikipedia article "French people" they say that the Français "descend from different peoples". If you go to the French Wikipedia pages of such peoples, they are indeed defined as ethnic groups or peoples. For example: Les Occitans forment une ethnie d’Europe occidentale originaire de l’isthme entre Atlantique et Méditerranée connu sous le nom d’Occitanie. It's similar to what occurs with "Spaniards", which is a more recent term used to encompass different ethnic groups and peoples that are much older: Castillians, Aragaonese, Catalans, Valencians, Navarrese, etc.

About my examples, I never said anything about rights and obligations. About the Catalan Countries, saying that those sources (like IEC) are biased or linked to Catalan nationalism is like saying that the RAE is biased or linked to Spanish nationalism. Which doesn't make much sense. I'm going to reword that part of the article to make it more neutral. The Catalan Countries are the territories where the Catalan language is spoken. It's a linguistic and cultural term, because those territories share a common language, and to some extend similar culture and history (Catalan language was introduced in Valencia during Reconquista, when Catalans repopulated that new conquered territory). That's why some authors use the word "Catalan" to refer to those territories too, since they also speak Catalan. --Beethoven (talk) 14:07, 9 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I am removing the reference about the banner in a political demonstration because unreliable (I think it is obvious, but banners in demonstrations only the point of view of the person holding the banner, not a general truth). And the term Catalan Countries that you so much insist on was indeed "a linguistic and cultural term" in the 19th century, when it was coined; but now it is a politically loaded phrase. If it is mentioned in an article, it has to be properly explained, with its political connotations. I think it is not necessary in this article, at least not in the lead section, so I am removing it again.
 * The opinion I insist you have is that populations can be objectively categorized in ethnic groups, and that articles about populations in Wikipedia should define them as ethnic groups. For me, that perception is outdated, typical of 19th and early 20th-century ethnography. Ethnic groups are now seen as social constructs based on subjective self-identification, and many of the criteria used in the past to identify ethnic groups, such as "race" or religion, have now fortunately been abandoned. That's why all articles that start with "The XXX are an ethnic group" strike me as biased, inaccurate or at the very least incomplete. Populations can be defined in many ways, and the concept of ethnic group is only one of them and often not one with much scientific basis.
 * From your words, I understand (but please correct me if I am wrong) that your worry is that if Catalans are not defined here as an ethnic group "like the rest" somehow the population of Catalonia is downgraded or loses some kind of political right? That is the optic of ethnic nationalism, which I definitely do not adhere to but perhaps you do? If it serves your peace of mind, I have already started to address other related articles such as Spaniards.
 * And finally, please be careful with the use of quote signs. I have not written that I "don't like ethnic groups" as your quotes suggest. Transforming your interpretation of someone's words into what looks like a literal quotation is misleading and not constructive.--Hispalois (talk) 08:09, 12 August 2019 (UTC)


 * You can remove the demonstration source if you want. But the term Catalan Countries, that you so much insist on deleting, must be brought back to the article because that's literally what the sources say: "inhabitant of the Catalan Countries". Catalan Countries is a linguistic term: territories where the Catalan language, or a variant of it, is spoken. That's not controversial at all, because it's a fact that Catalan is spoken in all those territories. It's true that there are some minor political projects that propose the idea of creating a new country in the Catalan Countries geographical area, uniting all those Catalan-speaking territories. But this doesn't change the meaning of the Catalan Countries (a linguistic and cultural term). If someone wants to learn about such political projects they might want to take a look at the Catalan Countries' article political sections. Not here. Here we are only referring to the original Catalan Countries's definition, which are the territories where the Catalan language is spoken. Here it's not the place to introduce such political projects.
 * It's not my opinion that these Wikipedia articles about ethnic groups should define them as ethnic groups. It's just that this is how Wikipedia works. I didn't decide it. Note that not all populations are ethnic groups; for instance "Barcelonians" are a population, but not an ethnic group. Whether we like it or not, ethnic groups do exist. We don't live in a world with only one common culture, language and history. Instead, there are many groups of people that share a unique common history, traditions, culture and language. Catalans are different from the Basques and different from the Japanese. Wikipedia takes notice of these different ethnic groups, just like the other encyclopedias do.
 * All those hundreds of pages in Wikipedia about ethnic groups always follow the same style: defining them as an ethnic group, stating the group they belong to (Romance here, Germanic for the Danes) and their native land. They make use of the "Infobox ethnic group" and include all the categories related to ethnic groups. That's how Wikipedia works. This avoids bias. When all the hundreds of ethnic groups in Wikipedia follow a specific format, we can't make an exception for one specific ethnic group when there's no reason to. Specially when this ethnic group (Catalans) is one of the most recognizable and clear examples of ethnic groups in Europe, by scientific gauge.
 * Finally, I didn't said anything about "political rights". Maybe what you were trying to say is that Catalans have the "right" to be defined like the rest of the ethnic groups in Wikipedia. Which is true. But more than "rights", what we are really talking about here is the encyclopedic criteria and Wikipedia policies. Articles on the same subject must follow the same lead. Be it planets, animals or ethnic groups. And again, as I told you, your opinions about the ethnic groups in general have no place here in Catalans. This talk page is not the place for it.
 * In regard to "Spaniards" article, you started editing it after I told you so. Because I pointed you that what you were saying in this talk page against Catalan's (asking for a specific source on ethnic group) could be applied to other articles that lacked that source, like Spaniards. But your edits were shortly after reverted. And I guess that it will happen again. Among your edits you also took the time for some disruptive editing too, which doesn't improve the article. But I'm not going to contest your edits there. --Beethoven (talk) 16:52, 12 August 2019 (UTC)