Talk:Catalans/Archive 3

References Please
How about you lot include some actual references supporting whatever you feel like putting in this article? That would surely take a lot of strain off this discussion page where people are by and large spouting off any old crap they have been fed in their own cultural environment (Spaniards: that means you, mostly) and in some cases questioning what are basic and very obvious facts to those with any familiarity with the subject matter. Case in point: I identify myself as a Catalan person (non-exclusively, but that's not the point) through acquired cultural and linguistic traits, and I'm recognised as such by other Catalans; however, as I was neither born in Spain, nor have any Spanish ancestry, or familial, cultural (that includes linguistic), or residence links with the country I resent any attempts at implying that the Catalan people are merely a subgroup of Spaniards/French and that anyone saying otherwise must be a nationalist zealot.

So if you lot are thinking of trying to push a point of view, at least do some fucking homework and come up with some proper references which actually support whatever it is you are trying to wedge into the article, else say nothing at all. By way of example, the sentence I have removed in this edit is not supported by the adjoining reference, which in fact appears to be the source for the opening paragraph in that section instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.153.104.185 (talk • contribs)


 * Being a Catalan has nothing to do with citizenship. The main trait of Catalans, the one which makes them so, is language. The box is also wrong: being able to speak Spanish or French has nothing to do with one's catalanishness. I'm fed up with Spanish bigots spouting a Catalan must be a Spaniard yes or yes. When evidence strikes them, as the fact that there are Catalans in France, they put it as a triviality. "The adjacent part of France also claims". Bullshit. Catalanishness has nothing to do whith "adjacing parts" or land at all, it has relation with people. This page is about PEOPLE, not Spanish legal definitions of what a Catalan is. Many Catalans in the diaspora have children who are able to speak our language and are considered Catalans, without that meaning they have any kind of relation to Spain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.34.232.224 (talk) 19:01, 7 August 2010 (UTC)


 * You must stop removing referenced content because you don't agree with it. I am sure that the article could do with more coverage of Catalan communities outside of Catalonia but that doesn't mean that you can can try to change the entire basis of the article. Besides your version was close to being incoherent. Please stop resubmitting it. --DanielRigal (talk) 16:31, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

It was me who referenced the content which I am trying to correct. Look at references and you will see they are about non Spanish Catalans. Some people here denied there where any Catalans in Southern France and I referenced it. Then they just put it as a triviality, when it is the most important point. And I see no incoherency in what I've said. I've just said that what a Catalan is is not defined by law but by language. Then, it's not correct to say "Catalans are people whith origins in the Spanish region of Catalonia". Catalans are people who speak Catalan, and they are not all natives of Spain (some of them are natives of France and some are in the diaspora). As I said the article is about people, ethnics, not Spanish legal terms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.34.186.217 (talk) 17:39, 11 August 2010 (UTC)


 * While you keep pushing an extemely biased POV, you are unable to understand that the lead paragraph is claiming your very same opinion, but in a neutral way. You say that the inhabitants of Roussillon are also catalans, and many other people believe they do not...
 * In addition, I point you to the fact that both references in the lead paragraph are either broken or leading to nothing related.
 * We had many fights in the past to get a neutral lead paragraph for you to come and blow up everything. --   MauritiusXXVII  (  Aut Disce, Aut Doce, Aut Discede!  )   . 06:59, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Note: One abusive comment removed. Comments should be about improving the article, not questioning the integrity of other editors. --DanielRigal (talk) 13:08, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

What about modifying this nonsense about Catalan people being "people with origins in the Spanish province of Catalonia". There are Catalans in France - this point about "people from Roussillon are SOMETIMES included in this definition [of what a Catalan is]" is bullshit, as natives of Roussillon are all Catalan without any kind of doubt -and Italy. And Andorrans are Catalans, you just check their names. Catalan people are not defined by citizenship but by ethnics.

Another article destroyed by Nationalist propagandists
The article starts stating that Catalonia is an area divided between France and Spain. Another piece of crap in Wiki. Why dont we state that Spain is itself divided between Europe, America, inclunding the US, etc, including all the territories that were once part of Spain. Or why dont we do the same with any other country, Germany, for example, and when do we draw the line historically. I am disgusted with these nationalists who use Wiki for their propaganda. There are areas of France who are historically linked to Catalonia, and to Italy and to Germany, etc, but there is no single region in France that is called Catalonia. Enough with these types of political propaganda and enoug with people who confuse desires in Nationalism and reality. Kun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.39.41.123 (talk) 16:43, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There do is a region in France called by most people northern Catalonia. People who live there are said to be Catalan people, historicly and nowadays. It is the same case as Castilian people when they were invaded by the Napoleon forces: they stilled being Castilian. But what you said have been already said in this talk page and correctly answered, I wouldn't like to repeat discussions.--Ssola (talk) 13:09, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Catalonia is not just the Autonomous Community of Catalonia as many spanish nationalists try us to believe. Catalonia is not what spaniards want it to be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.83.198.191 (talk) 10:38, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Exclusive vs. Inclusive identity
What percentage of Catalans also consider themselves Spanish? (have dual identities). 10 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.194.243 (talk • contribs) 23:34, 10 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Poll by GESOP said the vast majority. Only about 22% didn't.--Cymru123 (talk) 19:19, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know if that means anything. All citizens in the autonomous community of Catalonia are legally Spanish, so some of them may call themselves Spanish and at the same time be supporters of the independence of Catalonia, for example. On the other hand, polls count as Catalan any Spaniard living in Catalonia, when a lot of them are immigrants who don't regard themselves as Catalan. Jotamar (talk) 17:12, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes?
French Catalans are not "sometimes" considered catalans as you can see in the official webpage of the local administration they are officially considered Catalans by their own administration. 80.30.193.35 (talk) 21:11, 3 April 2011 (UTC)


 * On the other hand, The concept of Catalan Countries comprises territories whose inhabitants are not and were never called "Catalan". The reference added is not neutral and is heavily politically influenced in nature (as the whole GREC editorial group) for this particular matter. This information is simply misleading and offensive to some. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.144.164.146 (talk) 09:33, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes
I reinserted the following sourced sentence: Catalan is sometimes used to define people from Catalan Countries, which include other areas where the Catalan language is spoken. This claim is logically proved by just finding one source which uses the word Catalan with that meaning, and the source is provided. Furthermore, the source fits confortably in what Wikipedia defines as reliable sources, even though that wouldn't be needed in strict logic. Jotamar (talk) 15:26, 7 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The concept of Catalan Countries comprises territories whose inhabitants are not and were never called "Catalan". The reference added is not neutral and is heavily politically influenced in nature (as the whole GREC editorial group) for this particular matter. This information is simply misleading and offensive to some. A single website of bias editorial group which is ideologically very close to independetist and irredetism political ideologies DOES NOT "fits confortably in what Wikipedia defines as reliable sources" .  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.144.164.146 (talk) 09:44, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * If offensive or not, it's irrellevant. It is a fact that the term "Catalan" is used in some kind of context and/or by some people for refering to Valencian and Balearic people too. I'm Valencian, I'm against the idea of Catalan Countries, and I know that. Besides, I disagree with quoting GREC or Enciclopedia Catalana group as "heavily politically influenced". It is not more influenced than other sources.--Coentor (talk) 20:56, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Added 2 people to the infobox
I added José Carreras and Quim Monzo due to the fact they are the two most famous living Catalans (besides the squad of Barcelona).

(Removed per WP:NOTAFORUM) Danton&#39;s Jacobin (talk) 20:00, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but for some reason when you go over the Carreras pic with the "hand" it says Salvador Dalí instead of J. Carreras. --E4024 (talk) 20:23, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

1738 Catalans in USA?
The number of Catalans in USA (1738) looks awfully low. For comparison purposes, the Basque people page mentions 58,069 Basques living in USA (this is, 33 Basques for each Catalan!) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.19.210 (talk • contribs) 03:01, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

An ethnic group? What a tremendous nonsense!
Even if you consider Catalans with roots in Catalonia of more than 3 or 4 generations (which probably do not count more than 2 million people), you cannot find any ethnic difference between Catalans and the rest of Spaniards. That is mainly because of Barcelona being an attractive city for people all over Spain during the past centuries, specially XIX and XX, when an important industrial development took place.

I am completely disappointed that Wikipedia has accepted such an article, which reminds to what other hysterical nationalisms have been stating during the 20th century. This article is basically a contribution to the recent seccesionist process financed by the regional government. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alerodriguez69 (talk • contribs) 12:49, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Proposal for the deletion of all the galleries of personalities from the articles about ethnic groups
Seemingly there is a significant number of commentators which support the general removal of infobox collages. I think there is a great opportunity to get a general agreement on this matter. It is clear that it has to be a broad consensus, which must involve as many editors as possible, otherwise there is a big risk for this decision to be challenged in the near future. I opened a Request for comment process, hoping that more people will adhere to this proposal. Please comment here. Hahun (talk) 14:02, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 11:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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