Talk:Catalogue of Women/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Drmies (talk · contribs) 22:57, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

(Sorry to interrupt Drmies' review here, but in the following comment I can't accept any praise for this article at all: each of my edits is minor to the point of triviality. It's entirely Davidiad's work! Drmies is gracious but I would feel better if he would strike my name from his comment. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:36, 17 March 2013 (UTC))
 * Sorry for interrupting myself, but Cynwolfe, that just won't do. You can choose to not put the GA symbol thingie on your user page, but I am an admin and my comments can only be struck per ArbCom, since they are of necessity true. This article is very, very impressive, and that's in part because of you. Now help bring this up to GA status! Thanks. Drmies (talk) 16:25, 17 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I still don't have a clue how this particular template works, but I'm reviewing this article. Feel free to help me out. Drmies (talk) 22:57, 16 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Cynwulfe and Davidiad, I think you got a fine piece of work here. I'll do a review. Let me get a couple of quick and simple questions out of the way--I hope you don't mind a piecemeal approach; I find that it helps to get things out of the way on a first read.
 * Why Tzetzes, and not John Tzetzes? I clicked through to see if it was a title that needed to be italicized. Also, I'm a great fan of the appositive/adjectival introduction, "the twelfth-century Byzantine poet and grammarian John Tzetzes" (and in that case you can drop John).
 * "The poet completes his treatment"--we don't know the poet's gender, and the appropriate section says nothing about it. Consider that the poetic phallus is not a penis. :)
 * More later: apparently laundry takes precedence over poetry. I know, it's a fucked-up world. Drmies (talk) 22:29, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks, Drmies.  It was just Tzetzes because that's what I call him, forgetting that even some classicists have never read of him (and that his poor brother Isaac wallowed with him).  davidiad { t } 22:47, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Do we need to do the GA subpage thang?  davidiad { t } 22:48, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know, Davidiad--I just started the template and it looks like hell. If you can fix it that'd be great. This isn't some fill in the blank kind of thing. Also, please define "verse" at its first occurrence, possibly connecting it with "line" which is wikilinked nearby. Drmies (talk) 23:00, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Stuck in a link to dactylic hexameter for now. Currently making dinner—will think of a more graceful and efficient way to keep the concepts of verse and stichometry at the fore: this while trying to retain the ridiculous construction "in part or entire" which strains the copulative properties of "survive".  davidiad { t } 23:36, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not quite sure what you mean by define verse, here. Is it that the fact that verse and line are synonymous in stichic meters needs to be implied more strongly? If so, do we think that linking dactylic hexameter does enough?  davidiad { t } 00:14, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes--I think it looks fine now. Drmies (talk) 01:20, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * West is mentioned in the lead. I'm not a big fan of self-reference in WP articles ("this article reflects...") but it's fine if it's done in a scholarly acceptable manner (and this is not really a lay audience you're shooting for). You can earn the mention of West in the lead by having some discussion, and the "Date, composition and authorship" section is the best place for that. What I see right now is "Martin West argues..." and "West's arguments have been highly influential", but no discussion of West's role in the scholarship of the poem. I think that if you beef up the opening of the third paragraph to include a bit of commentary on West and his importance you will have a stronger argument. Or place it in the second paragraph ("Modern scholars have not shared..."), where you mention one scholar. Or simply give him a short paragraph, between the second and the third: if he is important enough to be explicitly cited as the major source for this article, he deserves a couple of sentences that elucidate just why he is so relevant. For your consideration. Drmies (talk) 01:28, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that the sentence in the lead might have begun life as part of the interminable note b: I wonder if it should make its way back to the apparatus. I also used to have a few pointers at West's influence, but the superlatives from other scholars bothered me. A greater description of West (and his early partnership with Merkelbach) might actually fit well in the final section so that the back and forth of the dating–authorship debate can remain focused on the topic at hand. Cynwolfe, you rightly split it off from the third paragraph. Do you think it should be trimmed and moved to a note? There should be more explicit treatment of West and the Cat. (a relationship that began when the former was 24), but I'm going vacillating on whether to keep the sentence Drmies brings up in the article text.  davidiad { t } 02:28, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Cutting it from the lead is a possibility as well, and it's probably more in line with other Wikipedia articles. Having said that, I think a section/couple of paragraphs on current scholarship and who the big players are (can't be that big a group) is very useful for the more academically inclined reader. I wouldn't stick that in a note, no. Note b speaks of "edition of record"--the text should make that clear. Drmies (talk) 02:50, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm going to think about this over the next few hours. The final section is a bit thoughtless right now, and the revolution in our knowledge of the Catalogue that came during the third quarter of the 20th century is a bit too muted compared to the thrill I get when I look at just what happened from 1956 to 1981. So this will allow for more coverage of West (And Merkelbach) and allow the reader a window into why there's an "edition of record" and why West's name is all over the place (aside from the fact that he's the greatest Hellenist of the latter half of the twentieth century). I need also to think about the lead, though, if the sentence is cut. The last word before the body of the article probably shouldn't be "missteps".  davidiad { t } 17:11, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Your idolatrous attitude toward West is ironic in the context of an article on a bunch of gods that blatantly contradicts what the good book tells me, and will no doubt be noted on the RfC/U on your POV ("academic"--pshaw). Also, yes, think it over some. I think (but I am an academic bore) that a note on scholarship and (changing) opinions is of great value. If it turns out that your thrill is not just about nostalgia, it may well be that the muted nature of current scholarship is the result of some issues having been settled, at least for now, and scholarship will reflect that. In my opinion, an encyclopedic article is better served by a discussion of scholarship and attitudes than by a "popular culture" section, for instance. Drmies (talk) 17:31, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

More

 * Pet peeve: wikilink in quote ("heroic age" in the lead). Is it that necessary? Consider linking it separately, here or elsewhere.
 * Done. Take a look at the links in the translations. I linked mythology and geographical topics that aren't discussed in the body text, but this might be against some Wikilaw.  davidiad { t } 17:11, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I saw one of them, yes. The Wikilaw in question is the MOS, WP:LINKSTYLE. IMO, it's less obtrusive in a block quote, and LINKSTYLE is not a policy or anything like that. I'll see.
 * Why "Clytemestra"? Is there a convention here I'm unaware of?
 * Because I'm a pedantic dick ... her name was Clytemestra (famous of counsel), not Clytemnestra (famous of marriage), and in the Catalogue text, since it isn't transmitted through the medieval tradition, actually has the n-less form. But unless we make a point of this in the article, piping the link is a bit much. I'll change.  davidiad { t } 18:27, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Consider rewriting the beginning of the second half--"...than they were in the Iliad: they were fierce...": "they were fierce conjoined twins in the Catalogue, no?
 * Good catch.  davidiad { t } 18:27, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "Agenorids and the Gês Períodos": I had to look hard for the Gês Períodos in this section--it comes in the next-to-last sentence of the third paragraph. To warrant inclusion in a subject heading it needs to be given a slightly more prominent position, and the easiest solution, I think, is to make it part of a (stronger) topic sentence for that last paragraph. I mean, these Ges are the travels of Phineus, so it makes sense. This has an additional benefit: it creates a paragraph where the first sentence is not "just" plot; if there's anything right now that gives me pause it's the plottiness of the entire article. Right now, I'd say that it would be helpful if more individual paragraphs were given a slightly larger topic sentence that places its content not just in terms of the plot (which is a predictable way of organizing and does not "argue" its own inclusion) but also in terms of, for instance, later or competing tradition, etc. "ἰσαίωνες", for instance, could be placed in a topic sentence, if it's an important enough matter, by simply shifting a few of those sentences around. Instead of importance buried in plot (pardon my rhetorical emphasis) you might create importance borne out by plot.
 * This is where the article started to get a bit burdensome for me. The two points you bring up are helpful, and if you see others that appear to have an obvious path away from bare, breathless summary, that would be helpful. Two sections that aren't strictly about the poem's content have been on hold until I get a better sense of how to keep the summary of the fragments readerly. (This is one of the reasons that I was psyched about this review ... every time I've opened this page since I moved to Arkansas I've just thrown up my hands and groaned.)  davidiad { t } 18:27, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually the Ges periodos can't be treated with the detail necessary for it to be given any real prominence in a Wikipedia article. Over the past six years there have been a couple articles on the passage and the ancient ethnographic tradition, but it hasn't risen to the point of being a real discussion.  davidiad { t } 18:57, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think you need to add extensive detail. Flipping some sentences around, to have it in a topic sentence rather than in the middle of a paragraph, is already helpful in earning that heading.
 * I've switched the order around here to give the episode it's due importance upon introduction, but the title Ges Periodos as the passage is currently is specifically relevant only to Ephorus' citation and earlier scholarships idea that this referred to another lost Hesiodic work. If the Catalogue and early Greek ethnography becomes more of a cottage, I'll tweak the emphasis then.  davidiad { t } 18:23, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * " Amphilochus and Alcmaeon, the sons of Amphiaraus, wooed from Argos"--missing word, clause?
 * Nope, just stylistically odd. Will rethink: that paragraph is a bit dashed off.  davidiad { t } 18:27, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I see it now, yes. But indeed, that whole paragraph is a tad long. There's one whose gift was different from the other Catalogue--that's worth listing, certainly. I'm still thinking about plot. (It's one of the GA criteria.)
 * I've removed two of the minor suitors and restructured the sentence that was a bit of a brier for you. The issue with completely reorganizing this section and trimming further is that the Catalogue of Suitors is a big topic. I could treat it as a dialogue between West, Finkelberg and Heilinger, but this would entail leading with scholarly polemic. If it doesn't seem too offensive to you, I think I'd like to leave it as is and return to it at a later incarnation of the article. I wrote much of the synopsis with an eye toward topical sections to be added later. In this case a section on "The Catalogue and the epic tradition" would allow for two short paragraphs here with a clue toward the significance of the Catalogue of Suitors in the constellation of oral traditions and the Athenian question of our textual transmission.  davidiad { t } 18:54, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Question. Do any of the above concerns vitiate the ability of the article to pass any of the review categories? If so, that category should be marked "no". (And I must reiterate that I did nothing to develop the article; I made trivial edits and to recognize its excellence.) Cynwolfe (talk) 18:04, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I take them as just notes ... it's a GA or just bit of thought away from a GA, so the rubric is kind of a formality (though Drmies has actually left blank the assessment points to which these notes would apply), and I kind of need a kick in the ass these days to actually write. Do you have any ideas about Drmies big point above on moving away from plodding plotiness?  davidiad { t } 18:27, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Cynwolfe, this article is going to pass, but the "well-written" part is a big assignment here since there is so much text. Davidiad, you mentioned a dick and an ass in your comments; please keep your private life out of this. Yes, let's think plot. Hold on--math test. BRB. Drmies (talk) 19:49, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "recherche scholar-poets": you are the only Google hit for this phrase. :) Can you explain?
 * They were scholars who were also poets (or the other way around) whose taste was for ostentatiously recondite verse—a nascent species in the fifth and fourth centuries (Ion of Chios, Antimachos of Kolophon), but characteristic of the Hellenistic period. The Reception section needs to be three or four paragraphs without subsections: my rare phrase will go in the process. I want to deal with the content issues in the "plot" summary before doing too much cleanup in the Authorship, etc. and Reception sections, though.  davidiad { t } 21:21, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * You may not be ready for this then, but I'll tell you anyway. There's a few brief remarks in the bibliography and the list of editions that qualify them (like, "takes much recent scholarship into consideration", "faithfully based upon"), and a few in the notes ("none of the scholarship cited in the present article mentions this opinion, and Most might here be confusing this papyrus with the passages found in the Bibliotheca discussed below"). Now, in our business that's fine and I personally don't have a problem with it, though one might charge that this is, strictly speaking, OR and POV. It's best to verify such claims with a note, of course, but maybe that's the kind of thing you want to leave until next time (meaning the FA review, which is inevitable). And now I'm going to look over the whole thing one more time.
 * Yeah, I knew I was being bad when I wrote those notes. I did because those editions were being cited all over WP for false info. But I'll fix. I might actually have an RS for Evelyn-White, but I'm just going to delete the 1908 translation because maybe if I ignore it it will go away. (Not editing now since you are ... and edit conflicts really suck with the sloooow page loads because of all those citation templates.) <span style="font-family:'segoe ui','lucida grande';letter-spacing:2px;text-shadow:0 0 1px #999"> davidiad { t } 21:55, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * It would be a pity to lose the assessment of Mair (1908). Paul August &#9742; 22:08, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * (I assume that that's an objective, and not possessive, genitive.) The rules are the rules, and I understand the spirit of this one. But, since Drmies doesn't find the inclusion of my qualifications enough to keep it from GA, it might stay a while. I'm still trying to deal with more pressing issues, but this week is a bear. I have to ask though, if I find Mair such pest, why do I go so far as to link the blunderer? <span style="font-family:'segoe ui','lucida grande';letter-spacing:2px;text-shadow:0 0 1px #999"> davidiad { t } 01:52, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, and "Rome" is a bit short in comparison with the other section. I think a temporary fix would be to add maybe two more examples, which you can probably rattle off fairly easily.
 * Can you come up with a different title for that section? "Hellenistic period" and "Rome" aren't very parallel. Drmies (talk) 20:23, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The periods aren't parallel, but successive points in the reception of the Catalogue. I've tweaked the first paragraph and done away with the subheadings. Two more paragraphs—one on the epinicia and tragedy, the other on the Greek poets of the Imperial Period—could be added, but these would require OR to have enough material to warrant inclusion. <span style="font-family:'segoe ui','lucida grande';letter-spacing:2px;text-shadow:0 0 1px #999"> davidiad { t } 22:14, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Formalities
<ol> <li>:</li> <ol STYLE="list-style-type: lower-alpha"> <li>; --- yes</li> <li>. --- yes</li> </ol> <li>:</li> <ol STYLE="list-style-type: lower-alpha"> <li>; --- yes</li> <li>; --- yes</li> <li>. --- yes</li> </ol> <li>:</li> <ol STYLE="list-style-type: lower-alpha"> <li>; --- yes</li> <li>. --- yes.</li> </ol> <li>. --- yes</li> <li>. -- plenty stable</li> <li>:</li> <ol STYLE="list-style-type: lower-alpha"> <li>; --- yes</li> <li>. --- yes</li> </ol>

Individual questions and answers are above.


 * Passed as GA. Congratulations! Drmies (talk) 02:10, 3 April 2013 (UTC)