Talk:Catalonia/Archive 1

" Christopher Columbus sailed from Barcelona on the voyage which took him to the Americas. "

Christopher Columnbus did not sail from Barcelona. He sailed from the Palos harbor, in Huelva (Andalusia).

And then, some Catalan historian claims Columbus departed from Pals (nowadays province of Girona).

What seems pretty clear is that on returning from his first voyage, Columbus met the kings Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castile in Barcelona.

Perique, can you explain why you deleted the following paragraphs? -- Miguel


 * Linguistic classifications are an extremely politically contentious issue in Spain. While it makes sense to say that three dialects of the same same language are spoken in Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic islands (with further variations within the three regions), people in Valencia and the Balearic Islands do not wish to consider their language a "dialect" of Catalan, which has been the only name used for the common language.


 * A philologically unfounded tradition, emerged during the decandence centuries of the language (from XVI to XIX),  made the Catalan language a descendent of "llemosí", a  literary mixture of Langue d'Oc (based on its central  Lemosin dialect, of the region around Limoges (France). This romance language was used for the poetry of the  trobadours since XII century, in a wide area going from  Gascogne to the north of Italy and including the Catalan  speaking lands.

How about moving an unbiassed version of them to the article on the Catalan language?

Perique des Palottes 2002/07/23


 * Linguistic classifications are a politically contentious issue in Spain. While it makes sense to say that different dialects of the same language are spoken in all those areas (with further variations within the three regions), there are minorities in Valencia and the Balearic Islands who wish to consider their languages as separate ones. However, the unity of the Catalan language is not an issue among the academics since the Catalan language is less fragmented than similar languages like Italian or Spanish. The pretended lack of unity of the language has been mainly used by politicians that want to tear apart the different Catalan territories.

I've taken out the above paragraph because &#9774; Eclecticology 17:24 Apr 20, 2003 (UTC)
 * 1) It is argumentative of a certain POV
 * 2) It is about the language rather than about the geographical entity.

About the indigenous names
Why is Generalitat de Catalunya in the place where you are putting the indigenous names? Isn't it just the name of the local government? -- Error 01:53, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I would have written "Comunitat Autònoma de Catalunya" as indigenous name in Catalan, but in fact Generalitat de Catalunya means the system of government (like "Kingdom of Spain", "Portuguese Republic", etc.) and is much more used in Catalan than Comunitat Autònoma, which can be said to be a description rather than a name (like "Spanish State"). Therefore, even if my first impulse was to change this, I let it go since, for instances, in Spain, the name is "Kingdom of Spain". But if someone changes it, I won't change it either. User:Marco Neves


 * In Catalonia, (except in Val d'Aran) all the official toponimal names are always in Catalan, never in Spanish. I know it because it was controversial in Madrid. In the same way, exists Catalan names for regions out of Catalonia but their official names are in Spanish, no in Catalan. In the header of the tables always there are the official names, then is logical to put only the Catalan version.

Politics
I think this definitely needs a rewrite. First of all, I think there are POV issues with many statements: e.g., I don't think a majority of people would think Pujol and his party as radicals ! The issue on which of PSC or ERC is more leftist is also very much POV, etc. 2nd, doesn't it focus too much on ongoing politics ? Oh, and Carod-Rovira is no longer conseller en cap. Xevi.

About using Spanish and Catalan
If you look on the website of the government of Catalonia, you see that both the Castilian "Generalidad de Cataluna" and the Catalan "Generalitat de Catalunya" are both listed as the title of the regional government. Therefore, both names are official. In addition, as Castilian is the national language, it is most correct to include the name of the government in both languages.


 * I think I have found the right compromise. I have included the Spanish version of the name, but pointed out that the Catalan term is frequently used in Spanish-language contexts.


 * BTW, it is absurd to claim Catalunya is correct in Spanish. Only hard nationalists use this totally alien (to Castilian) spelling in Castilian.  I also know extreme nationalist Greeks who want English-speakers to say and write "Hellas" instead of "Greece".  These people are neither in the majority of speakers nor in the minority of standard keepers and setters.


 * No: only the Catalan name is the official. If you switch the English version of the webpage the name appears in English because of the name exists in English, but the official name is not in English, is in Catalan.


 * No, I have to beg to differ. Whenever the non-English names of an entity are given, they are given in the native language(s).  For example, if you look at the "Kingdom of Spain" page in Wikipedia, you see the name in all the native languages in Spain.  The same priniciple applies here.  As Castilian AND Catalan are official (Castilian for the entire Kingdom, Catalan for the region), it is the most appropriate to include both versions.  Similarly, the www.gencat.net website (by the way, shouldn't it be .es) gives both Catalan and Castilian names for the government on the respective language pages, making both versions correct.


 * Llull:
 * Why do you keep on referring to the "Latin" name? The alternative non-Catalan name I am placing on the website is Castilian, not Latin!
 * He's referring to my adding the Latin name to the list. If anyone disagrees with this, feel free to remove the Latin, but the Spanish name of the place is indisputably Cataluña. &mdash;Chameleon 19:28, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Llull keeps on making incorrect changes to this site. He claims he is making the changes because the link to the Catalan government website has been deleted, which is clearly not the case. In addition, he is wrongly asserting that "Catalunya" is the only correct spelling. This is only the case in the Catalan language. In Castilian, Catalunya is spelle "Cataluña," as I and other users on this page have shown to already be the case multiple times.


 * It would be good if you two could make sure you sign your comments.
 * A question to those who might force others to always use the Catalan name for Catalonia even when speaking other languages. Dius i escrius sistematicament «&#20013;&#22269;» o fin i tot «Zhongguo» quan parles de la Xina? Ja.  Pensava que no. &mdash;Chameleon 19:01, 15 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Who have write that "Catalunya" is correct in Spanish is 140.247.135.196 and I deleted this, because the Spanish (an unofficial form) is only Cataluña. I only want to note that the law in Catalonia is clear: Law 1/1998, January 7 (DOGC 2553, of 9, and BOE 36, February 11), of politic lingüistic, capitol II:


 * Article 18. The toponymy
 * 1. The toponyms of Catalonia have the Catalan, according with the regulations, as an only official form linguistics of Institute of Catalan Studies, except those of the Val d'Aran, that have Aranese.
 * 2. The determination of the denomination of the towns and the regions is governed by the legislation of diet premises.
 * 3. The determination of the name of the urban ways and the centers of population of every kind corresponds to the town councils, and that of the other toponyms of Catalonia corresponds To the Government of the Generalitat.


 * (excuse me the horrible translation) Then it's absurd that for nationalist reasons 140.247.135.196 is changing the name of all the pages where appear the Catalan name Generalitat de Catalunya by the Spanish (that NEVER have been official) name Generalidad de Cataluña, when de official name is in Catalan and the project is in English. Using the same arguments the table of USA should have the name both in English and Spanish because of there are more Spanish speakers in USA that in all Spain. Or the table of Aragon should include the version Aragó because of there are a 5% of people that speak Catalan in Aragon. Think that the Spanish non-official name is included in the text of the article.


 * Ough! And "communitat" is not correct in Catalan. Llull 10:54, 16 May 2004 (UTC)


 * This idea of 'officialness' is a little strange. Few languages have powerful bodies dictating what things are called.  There has never been any 'official' decision to call Catalonia 'Catalonia', for example, by any governmental body, and yet this name is as legitimate and correct in English as Catalunya is in Catalan.  It should perhaps also be borne in mind that Catalonia is part of Spain, and all documents issued by the Spanish State refer to the autonomous community as Cataluña, thus rendering it an official toponym, if such a thing is truly necessary for our purposes as encyclopaedia editors.


 * Perhaps indeed Spanish names of places in the USA should also be included (in the small number of cases in which they differ from the English). I have just added Aragó to the article on Aragon.  The Catalan-speaking minority is too marginal to justify using Aragó systematically, but I think it deserves one mention in the article.


 * You added the name but no on the top of the box. You'll add the Basque or Occitan names on the top of France' box?


 * I think we can agree that Generalitat and not Generalidad should be used as the English name of the institution. Not because one is 'official', but because it is a quintessentially Catalan body and the Catalan name is frequently used even in Spanish anyway.  It is debatable, however, whether it is appropriate in English to call it the &lsquo;Generalitat de Catalunya&rsquo; or &lsquo;Generalitat of Catalonia&rsquo;., though I think I'd opt for sticking the whole thing in Catalan. &mdash;Chameleon 16:31, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

Responses from 140.247.135.196 (aka, Peter Wye)

"Who have write [sic] that "Catalunya" is correct in Spanish is 140.247.135.196 and I deleted this, because the Spanish (an unofficial form) is only Cataluña."


 * Like Chameleon said, Cataluña is the name of the region in Castilian. One only needs to look at the national government's website  in the "Autonomias" section, you have this spelling.  This is not "an unofficial form."


 * PP are not known for their respect to the Basc or Catalan institutions. As you can see, this page is in Spanish and English, but no in Catalan. As you can see, the name used in the English version is "Catalonia". Is that name offitial? No. Catalonia is only the English name.


 * Response from Peter English is not an official language of Spain, so of course "Catalonia" is not an official spelling! I do not see how this is an accurate refutation.  Also, last time I checked, PSOE was in power, not PP.

"Then it's absurd that for nationalist reasons 140.247.135.196 is changing the name of all the pages where [sic] appear the Catalan name Generalitat de Catalunya by the Spanish (that NEVER have been official) name Generalidad de Cataluña, when de official name is in Catalan and the project is in English. "


 * I apologize as Llull points out a valid mistake that I made in changing the web pages. Therefore, the official Catalan name is "Generalitat de Catalunya," which should be first (which was my mistake).  However, if you look at the Castilian website of, the Castilian is given as "Generalidad de Cataluña."  If even the Catalan government website gives "Generalidad de Cataluña" as a valid name, then it must be, by definition official.


 * In this web there is an English page version using the English name but is no official. Val d'Aran can be pronunced in Aranese (Vall d'Aran), Catalan (Vall d'Aran), and Spanish (Valle de Aran) but the official name (this name that must appear in all the laws or woun't have validation) is only in Aranese. In Valencia most of the municipalities have both names in Catalan and Spanish vaerions, but it's each municipality who chose if the official name should be only in Catalan, only in Spanish or both.


 * Response from Peter English is not an official language of Spain, so of course "Catalonia" is not an official spelling! I do not see how this is an accurate refutation.

"Then it's absurd that for nationalist reasons 140.247.135.196..."


 * If you are referring to Spanish nationalism, I hardly see how this is the case as I am a 5th generation American. I am merely correcting militant Catalanism that puts up information on these neutral pages that suggest that Catalonia is, or should, be an independent country.  If you believe Catalonia should be independent, fine.  This is your own opinion.  But it is incorrect to shove it down everyone's throats.


 * I am taking particular offense because I am being slandered here. I do not find this appropriate and do not appreciate it!

"Using the same arguments the table of USA should have the name both in English and Spanish because of there are more Spanish speakers in USA that in all Spain."


 * This is wrong on two accounts.


 * First, there are NOT more Spanish speakers in the USA than in Spain. In the current 2000 national census, Hispanics make up 13% of the population.  As the total US population is 275,000,000, this means that there are approximately 36 million Hispanics in the USA.  In addition, beyond the second generation, most Hispanics do not speak Spanish, or so poorly that they cannot be really called Spanish speakers.  Therefore, as there are approximately 40,000,000 people in Spain, and everyone in Spain speaks Spanish, there are more Spanish speakers in Spain than in the US.


 * Second, you are missing a crucial point. English is NOT the official language of the US.  There is none!  It is the de facto language for historical reasons.  As everyone speaks English, this may initially seem a moot point.  Because there is no officially decreed language, there is no need for everything in the USA to be officially bilingual.  Spanish speakers in the US, like Catalan speakers in Spain, are isolated in relatively small, concentrated pockets.  And when you step into Latin American neighborhoods, in fact all you see is Spanish.   However, this is not the case in Spain. In Spain, Castilian is decreed to be the national, official language of the nation, and Catalan is co-official in Catalonia.  Barcelona is even a Castilian-majority speaking city! It is therefore the obligation of information regarding names for this region to be in both languages.  If they are only in Castilian, this is incorrect; if only in Catalan, they are incorrect, you need both!


 * Spanish is co-ficial in Catalonia, sure. But the names of the sites only are official in Catalan (Val d'Aran is the exeption) and this is respected for the Spanish institutions.


 * Response from Peter You are still missing the point.  Even if I assume that your assertion that place names are only in Catalan (to which I argue I still have not received sufficient proof), this applies to only place names; what corresponds to names of places does not correspond to names of public institutions.  For example, San Francisco is a city in the US.  It has a Spanish name, but the name for the name of the government is the "Government of the City and County of San Francisco."  The title of government is in English because it is the de facto language of the US.  As Castilian and Catalan are decreed as official languages, the names of institutions should also appear in both languages even if the places have, allegedly, only Catalan names.


 * This is not the opinion of the Spanish institutions. In Spain it's the local goverment who choose this. In Valencia and Basc Country there are sites with the two official names (Catalan/Spanish or Basc/Spanish) but this is not the case in Catalonia. Most of who have officialisated the name in only one of the local languages (usually the oldest of the site, considering the other a foreign form) have the two forms of the name. Then, by what you say, you should change the official name "Comunitat autònoma de Catalunya" by "Catalunya". 158.109.52.161 08:14, 18 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Response from Peter Wye Go the Castilian pages of  and you will see "Generalidad de Cataluña" is given at the top.  Therefore, by your arguments, as the local government has given the title of the government in both languages, then both are official.  I think that arguing whether or not the two titles appear on the same page right next to each other is a pretty semantic argument.  And, how can Castilian be a "foreign form?"  French, English, German, etc. are foreign forms, not the national lanugage!

Again from Peter Wye. I have removed two links from the Catalonia page as they are highly inappropriate. For example, one refers to Catalonia as "a country between France and Spain." Feelings regarding Catalonian indpendence do not belong in a page that is giving information regarding Catalonia. Catalonia is currently not an indpendent country and any links that suggest so are incorrect.

To Peter:

A country or nation do not have to ve an "INDEPENDENT country" (as you say), to be just that: a country or nation. They might just as well be a country or nation military occupied by another one (for example, France or Spain). You shouldn't deny informed people the right to know that Catalonia IS a country and a nation (perhaps just because the majority of the Catalans feel that way) regardless of whether currently is independent or still military occupied.

Best Whishes,

Manel


 * To: Manuel
 * From: Peter Wye
 * Re: Substantial and Radical Changes to this Article unjustified and incorrect.

First, your changes illustrate that you have strong feelings regarding Catalonia that are biasing your ability to write a neutral, unbiased article about Catalonia.

Second, because your changes are incorrect, do not reflect the status quo, and give deliberately misleading facts, I am correcting them.

I am largely referring to your comments in the &ldquo;Politics of Catalonia section,&rdquo; and will also address comments made in the discussion page.


 * &ldquo;In 1975 the dictator Franco died and democracy was restored soon after. Catalonia wasn't and isn't still recognised as a nation by the Spaniards and became just an autonomous region with very limited freedom of decision within Spain. The Catalan catalanist leader Jordi Pujol came to power in the first regional elections in 1980, and his party, Convergence and Unity (Convergència i Unió or CiU), held power for 23 years, which means that the majority of the Catalans are nationalist, i.e., they want their country to be recognised as a nation. &ldquo;


 * I think that anyone on this discussion page can clearly see how this is not by any stretch of the imagination a neutral description of post-1975 Catalan politics. In fact, the statement that Catalonia became &ldquo;just another autonomous region with very limited freedom of decision within Spain&rdquo; is actually COMPLETELY false.  In fact, Catalonia has among the most powerful of autonomous governments as compared to most of the other regions of the country.


 * In addition, I have not come across any evidence that clearly shows that 51% or higher of the adult voting population in Catalonia supports independence from Spain. On-line articles of the subject place the number much lower, at around 30%.  Most Catalans would like a re-organization of the Madrid-Catalonia relationship, not outright independence.  So, the claim that &ldquo;the majority of Catalans are nationalist, i.e., they want their country to be recognized as a nation&rdquo; is incorrect.


 * &rdquo;In any case, while Catalan is experiencing a spectacular revival, the dominating presence of Castilian-speakers will continue to do harm to the normal use of Catalan in all parts of the country.&rdquo;


 * Again, Catalonia is not a country, and to say &ldquo;continue to do harm&rdquo; has negative connotations. I in fact made a change of my own sentence which had a similarly negative connotation towards Catalan that was not intended   Given the acrid nature of this recent edit, I highly doubt that such a mistake applies in this situation.

Now I will be referring to comments directing at me on the discussion post.


 * &ldquo;A country or nation do [sic] not have to ve [sic] an "INDEPENDENT country" (as you say), to be just that: a country or nation.&rdquo;


 * If Catalonia had a similar arrangement as England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland have within the United Kingdom as nations unified under one country, then I would agree with you. However, Catalonia lacks such an agreement, and therefore cannot be termed a country.


 * &rdquo;They might just as well be a country or nation military occupied [sic] by another one (for example, France or Spain).&rdquo;


 * Again, refer to my previous comments regarding the wide range of autonomy Catalonia has compared with the rest of the Spanish autonomous regions. In addition, I think that is misleading to say that Catalonia is a &ldquo;nation military [sic] occupied&rdquo; by France and Spain.  When Catalonia looks like France did in WWII, with German troops parading around the country, then I can say that it is militarily occupied.  How can Catalonia be militarily occupied if it maintains control of its own police force?&rdquo;


 * &rdquo;You shouldn't deny informed people the right to know that Catalonia IS a country and a nation (perhaps just because the majority of the Catalans feel that way) regardless of whether currently is independent or still military occupied.&rdquo;


 * Again, the numerous articles I have read have shown that this is not the case. Less than a third of Catalonian voters seems to support outright independence.

---

To: Peter Wye From: Manuel

Dear Peter,

You'be proven to be an objective, well-informed man. Precisely because of that, I would like to call your attention on the following subject:

1. You seem to rely on what's "official" to assess what the truth is, and any other vision would be catalogued by you as "bias". Well, remember that what is official in Spain is mainly decided by the Spanish government, not the Catalan one, and in this sense is *strongly biased* because it only represents the opinion of one of the two interested parties in what the japanese Ko Tazawa calls "the castiglian-catalan conflict".

You should recognize that there are nations which, sadly, are not officially recognised by other countries: that's my point, they're still a nation. Maybe you didn't know that Croatian people were a nation of its own before the war against the Serbians. Thereafter it was clear that Croatia is and was a nation. PLEASE be critical when reading this, don't rely only on "what's official".

If follows that your view of what Catalonia is tremendously biased by the Spanish opinion, and it's very sad, that on the page about CATALONIA in Wikipedia, the CATALAN view is censored and only the Spanish view has a place.

2. How can I be so sure about this "catalan view"? or as you say: >>I have not come across any evidence that clearly shows that 51% or higher of >>the adult voting population in Catalonia supports independence from Spain.

YOU'RE RIGHT ! The majority of Catalans are not necessarily independestist but certainly nationalist: They want Catalonia to be recognised as a nation (whether remaining within the Spanish State or not).

If we took aside people living in Catalonia who see themselves as Spaniards and not Catalans (the migrants from other parts of Spain), I would say that the proportion of nationalist people would probably reach 80 to 90 percent, after 33 years of living in Catalonia and traveling a lot within its borders as a businessman. How long have you been in Catalonia? Be careful, I'm not talking about the whole "adult voting population in Catalonia" as you say, but only about the "Catalans" as opposed to those who came to Catalonia for a living but without wanting to become a Catalan, and some even hating Catalans.

3. You said: >>When Catalonia looks like France did in WWII, with German troops parading around the country, then I can say that it is militarily occupied...

Exacly that is what happened aroun 1659 when the combined Castiglian-French military forces occupied Catalonia, and later in again with Franco. (We've lost too many wars, but we're strong enough to remain a nation.) Your argument ist very weak there.

4. And Finally: You said >>If Catalonia had a similar arrangement as England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland have within the United Kingdom as nations unified under one country, then I would agree with you.

Again, you're biased by paying only attention to "what's official" and not what it is in itself. Was Scotland a nation before the English wanted to recognise it as such? For most Scots certainly. Exactly as for most Catalans Catalonia is a nation and when Wikipedia writes about Catalonia only the view of foreigners is allowed, not that of the Catalans itself!

People who read about Catalonia on Wikipedia and thereafter travel to, say, Barcelona, will be disappointed about Wikipedia as soon as they get to know Catalan people (who are always ready to explain that Catalonia is a nation, especially to foreigners ;-) ) and see that the Catalan reality is not reflected on Wikipedia.

Please, think about it.

best whishes, Manel

P.D. Maybe we could agree on a compromise to include some lines about this Catalan reality on the page ??? Deal?


 * Manel, I won't waste time by getting into long-winded debates. Suffice it to say that your nationalist ideology is not helpful in an encylopaedia.  I and others want this article to express the actual facts about Spain and Catalonia, rather than opinions about what ought to be the situation.  I shall now go through the article and correct any nationalist propaganda into actual facts and descriptions of political realities. &mdash; Chameleon 23:26, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Politics
I have added PSOE (Partido Socialista Obrero Espa&#241;ol - Spanish Socialist Workers' Party) to the PSC as the latter is part of the PSOE federation and its official title is PSC-PSOE. I have also edited the fourth paragraph, where the entry implied that the rural areas are middle and highr class, to ...while the rural regions, and the middle and high-class urban areas, ...


 * I wouldn't be too sure as you feel about PSC. I think that PSC isn't a "federation", but a "federated party" with the PSOE since a certain year, and before of it PSC hadn't any link with PSOE. In fact, the PSC had its own "group" into the spanish parliament in 80-year decade --Martorell 20:17, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

NPOV
I find this article, as it currently stands, non-NPOV. As it has been pointed out in this discussion page, it's clearly written from the perspective of someone unfamiliar with the country and riddled with inaccuracies and/or mischaracterisations. I will point out some of the obvious ones in the first part of the article alongside my proposed changes. I will try to revisit it latter on to work on the other sections, which are also in need of serious re-writing.


 * Catalonia is a region in the north-east of the Spanish state.

This is a tricky one, as defining Catalonia simply as a "region" is considered derogatory and often offensive by a sizable part of the population of Catalonia, who in general are perfectly happy to describe themselves as a "country". At the same time, the use of the expression "Spanish State", while common in Catalan and Spanish, precisely to emphasise the fact that Spain is a State composed of diverse nations, sounds a bit confusing to English ears.

At the very least, I would reword the above to say "Catalonia is an Autonomous Region in the north-east of Spain". I acknowledge this only addresses what Catalonia currently is as a political entity, leaving out its cultural and historical aspects, but I hope to redress that latter.


 * The historic region of Catalonia also includes the historic county of Roussillon to the north

What is this "historic region" supposed to be? I will rephrase that as "historically, Catalonia included the comarques (sg: comarca) of Vallespir, Conflent, Fenolleda, Capcir, Alta Cerdanya and Rosselló, which following the Treaty of the Pyrenees became under French administration"


 * (continuing from above) a province of France since 1659

This is blatantly wrong--France does not have provinces. I'll change that to "and nowadays they form part of the département of Languedoc-Roussillon (66)"


 * that Catalan nationalists refer to as Catalunya Nord, i.e. "North Catalonia".

Wrong again. To start with the term "Catalunya Nord" was coined in the 1970's by Llorenç Planes, a Rossellonese cultural activist, although a similar form, "Catalunya del Nord" had been used by Nostra Terra (Our Land), a cultural organisation founded in 1936 by Alfons Mias, another Rossellonese. Now, "Catalunya Nord" is used routinarily by Catalans from either side of the Pyrenees to describe the Catalan territories to the North, and does not have any political connotations. What's more, Nationalists, Catalanists, and Independentists from both sides simply use "Catalonia" to refer to the whole, ignoring the physical reality of the Franco-Spanish border and the cultural divergences after nearly 300 years of separation.

Consequently, I propose: "These territories are commonly referred to as Catalunya Nord"


 * The term "Catalonia" is sometimes used to refer to the whole Catalan-speaking area, in line with the Pan-Catalanist strand of Catalan nationalism that sees all territories where the language is spoken as being a single nation, and advocating political independence from Spain for this nation. The whole area is often referred to as els Països Catalans, i.e. "the Catalan Countries" by nationalists, a term either embraced or resented in these regions.

There seems to be a confusion here between "Catalunya" and "Països Catalans" (lit., "Catalan Countries"), with the former generally referring to the Principality of Catalonia (including Catalunya Nord or not), and the latter being used to describe the areas sharing common linguistic and cultural traits with Catalonia, namely the ancient Kingdom of Valencia (nowadays Comunitat Valenciana), the Balearic Islands, the Catalan-speaking areas of Aragon, the Sardinian city of Alguer (Sard: Alighera, Italian: Alghero), Andorra, and of course, the Principality of Catalonia (including Catalunya Nord). In any case, the term "Països Catalans" does not seek to imply that all form a single nation (that's precisely why it's in plural form), and, contrary to popular belief, does not mean that those territories should share a single political future. It is no more politically charged than its rough counterparts, the Commonwealth or the Francophonie.

I find this passage very hard to correct right now, and in any case it doesn't belong to the head of the article. I'll simply remove it until I find a place for it, perhaps in the Language or Politics sections.


 * The official name of the Government of Catalonia (including the Council, the Parliament and the President) is Generalitat de Catalunya in Catalan

I'm aware of the discussion above, but the government of Catalonia is called the "Generalitat", it is not called "Generalidad" or "Generality", or anything else. Those terms are sometimes used for the convenience of those unfamiliar with Catalan realities, just as "Parliament" is sometimes used when one speaks of the Knesset in Israel or the Storting in Norway, however, the only form officially used by the Catalan Government is "Generalitat de Catalunya", in accordance with art. 2 of the Catalan Linguistic Policy Act.

I suggest "The Generalitat is the government of Catalonia, comprising its legislative and executive branches"


 * (Generalidad de Cataluña in Spanish though in practice this form is rare, the tendency being to use the Catalan name in Spanish).

Whether one uses one name or another in Spanish does not belong to the English Wikipedia. I shall remove the above.


 * The region has widespread autonomy

Whether it has ample autonomy is subjective, and actively disputed by many, including the current Catalan administration. That has to be deleted, changed or at the very least conditioned. I'm leaving it for the moment, thought, to see if someone can come up with a good replacement.


 * and for example its own police force Mossos d'Esquadra, coexisting with the Guardia Civil and Policía Nacional, under the authority of the Spanish government.

There are grammatical and stylistic problems with this. A mention of a Catalan police, and the roles of the State's security forces in Catalonia needs to be here, but not as a subordinate clause.

Language
The language section needs a complete re-write. For example:


 * Right, I've touched most of this. Here's what I've changed:

1.- It fails to mention that Catalan is the national language, except in the Aran Valley, as well as the importance of their language in the nation's sense of identity (which is why they are so fierce in defending it).


 * Done, except for the bit about relation to Catalan identity, which I shall resolve by quoting from [a page from the Generalitat's website.

2.- It fails to mention the linguistic reality in the Aran Valley, and its importance as the only territory where Occitan currently has official status.


 * Done. It could use linking to the article about Occitan and others.

3.- There is a preposterous comment to the effect that Spaniards dislike Catalans because they speak their own language. Although I personally often hear stories of outsiders surprised at being addressed in Catalan, that can only be attributed to the visitor's lack of information or a biased attitude. I've also heard complaints from English speakers when they visit France and find out that many Gauls have a tendency to actually speak French in their own country, but how that would merit a mention in the Wikipedia escapes me.


 * Got rid of those very subjective and POV comments.

4.- The comments about Catalan being the predominant language in the countryside and Barcelona being mostly Spanish speaking, while having some anecdotical basis tends to oversimplify things way too much, plus the fact that it implicitly considers important Catalan cities such as Girona and Tarragona as "the countryside", an assertion that I believe inhabitants of those cities would be inclined to dispute.

There are some really good statistics around which should be used as the basis for this section, I'll try to dig them out shortly.


 * Done. Added statistical data about knowledge and actual use of the language based on official sources. Links to them are in the text, but need adding to the "external links" section.